swamidada wrote:
I believe in Imamat. I believe in Hazar Imam. I believe in his Farmans and Hidayat. I believe in Ismaili and Muslim Tenets as mentioned in PREAMBLE of Ismaili constitution, and one of them is:
You haven't answered my question. I ask you again: When did Imamat
begin?
swamidada wrote:
I believe in Imamat. I believe in Hazar Imam. I believe in his Farmans and Hidayat. I believe in Ismaili and Muslim Tenets as mentioned in PREAMBLE of Ismaili constitution, and one of them is:
You haven't answered my question. I ask you again: When did Imamat
begin?
Imamat began with Mowla Murtaza Ali as first Imam. Please refer to 6th part of Dua.
swamidada wrote:
But there is no mention of Ali being Imam at that time in the couplet you mentioned. Your question is about Imamat.
A bit of intelligence is required to make the connection.
"The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner.
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).
Ginan verse:
ejee aad unnaade aa satpa(n)th saacho
enne pa(n)the chaddee koi na valleeyo paachhojee............11
Since the beginning and indeed the pre-eternity this religion is the true one.
Anyone who has travelled upon this path has not returned.
kmaherali wrote:
It is necessary to keep the Zaheri/Batuni perspectives to understand Ismailism.
Acccording to Ismaili Ta'limaat, it is the authority and right of Hazar Imam to explain Ta'weel of Allah's final message to guide followers. It is not the job of eera, vera, nathu kheera to Ta'weel. Already community teens and youth is confused because of spinning ta'weelat by some missionaries, so called
scholars, and little knowledge nathu kheeras. It is the authority of Imam, clearly mentioned in the following article of Preamble.
(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids.....
So far Hazar Imam has not explained the Ta'weel of the Praemble.
swamidada wrote:
But there is no mention of Ali being Imam at that time in the couplet you mentioned. Your question is about Imamat.
A bit of intelligence is required to make the connection.
"The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner.
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).
Ginan verse:
ejee aad unnaade aa satpa(n)th saacho
enne pa(n)the chaddee koi na valleeyo paachhojee............11
Since the beginning and indeed the pre-eternity this religion is the true one.
Anyone who has travelled upon this path has not returned.
From the above two references it is quite clear that Imamat existed since the beginning.
Our present Imam is Shah Karim Al Hussaini. We have to follow his Farman and Hidayat. Being an Ismaili we should follow the Ta'limaat in Preamble as explained by Imam of the time.
In Preamble there is no mention of Dus Avtar or reincarnation. These theories were propagated in previous era. Now time has changed. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," In my 70 years of Imamat I have changed Farmans 70 times.
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said;
1.HINDU NI WAATO ILM MA WANCHO CHHO TE WAJIB NATHI.
2.JIYAREY TAME(N) HINDU HATA TIYARE PIR SADARDIN NE TAME(N) RASTO DEKHARIYU(N).
3.TE WAQAT GUJRI GAYO. HAMN(N)A MOWLA ALI NI TAREEF, IMAMO NI TAREEF ANY HAZAR IMAM NI TAREEF WANCHO.
4. NAW (9) AVTAR MUKI NAKHO (leave 9 Avtars).
5.DASMO AVTAR MA MARA DADA (MOWLA ALI) NI TAREEF WANCHO.
August 20, 1899- Jungbar.
Let me quote a reference of Paris conference in 1975.
Article 6.2.4 published in the Ismaili Paris Conference has asked all Jamats and individuals to "forward all firmans, whether in manuscript, printed or any other form, of Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah, Mowlana Shah Hassan Ali Shah, and Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, to the Ismaili Association of Pakistan by 31st Dec 1975. These bodies also request individual members of their respective jamats, through suitable announcements, to make available any such material that may be in their possession."
swamidada wrote:
In Preamble there is no mention of Dus Avtar or reincarnation. These theories were propagated in previous era. Now time has changed. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," In my 70 years of Imamat I have changed Farmans 70 times.
Has the present Imam said anything to override the Farman I quoted. On the contrary he has told us to follow the Farmans of his grandfather.
swamidada wrote:
So far Hazar Imam has not explained the Ta'weel of the Praemble.
There is no need to do that.
You have been insisting on Ta'weel in mostly of your postings, now you wrote 'there is no need to do that'. Make up your mind. Article 'B' of Preamble clearly mentions that it is the authority and right of Hazar Imam to explain Ta'weel of Allah's final message.
swamidada wrote:
In Preamble there is no mention of Dus Avtar or reincarnation. These theories were propagated in previous era. Now time has changed. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," In my 70 years of Imamat I have changed Farmans 70 times.
Has the present Imam said anything to override the Farman I quoted. On the contrary he has told us to follow the Farmans of his grandfather.
Your words:
"Has the present Imam said anything to override the Farman I quoted".
When Imam changes Farman of his predecessor he usually don't declare but just issues the new Farman. There is no mention of 'dus avtar or reincarnation in our Dua or Preamble the most important document of Ismaili Tenet. If dus avtar and reincarnation were part of our faith then should have been mentioned in Dua and Preamble.
On reference of KIM, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," NAW (9) AVTAR MUKI NAKHO (leave 9 Avtars).
August 20, 1899- Jungbar.
swamidada wrote:
You have been insisting on Ta'weel in mostly of your postings, now you wrote 'there is no need to do that'. Make up your mind. Article 'B' of Preamble clearly mentions that it is the authority and right of Hazar Imam to explain Ta'weel of Allah's final message.
The Constitution cannot be compared to Allah's final message and to talk of Ta'weel is meaningless in the first place. The constitutions keep changing whereas Allah final message does not change.
The constitutions are the "clothes we wear" - the zaher aspect of our faith. Our traditions on the other hand are the Batin - the body. The zaher is limited in time whereas the batin is limitless.
The tenets mentioned in the preamble are time bound whereas the principles mentioned in our traditions are timeless.
swamidada wrote:
When Imam changes Farman of his predecessor he usually don't declare but just issues the new Farman. There is no mention of 'dus avtar or reincarnation in our Dua or Preamble the most important document of Ismaili Tenet. If dus avtar and reincarnation were part of our faith then should have been mentioned in Dua and Preamble.
On reference of KIM, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," NAW (9) AVTAR MUKI NAKHO (leave 9 Avtars).
August 20, 1899- Jungbar.
There is no need to repeat items that were already mentioned by our 48th Imam.
The Imam meant don't follow the teachings of the Nine Avatars but follow the teaching of the present Avtaar. That does not mean that we negate the notion of Das Avtaar.
swamidada wrote:
When Imam changes Farman of his predecessor he usually don't declare but just issues the new Farman. There is no mention of 'dus avtar or reincarnation in our Dua or Preamble the most important document of Ismaili Tenet. If dus avtar and reincarnation were part of our faith then should have been mentioned in Dua and Preamble.
On reference of KIM, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," NAW (9) AVTAR MUKI NAKHO (leave 9 Avtars).
August 20, 1899- Jungbar.
There is no need to repeat items that were already mentioned by our 48th Imam.
The Imam meant don't follow the teachings of the Nine Avatars but follow the teaching of the present Avtaar. That does not mean that we negate the notion of Das Avtaar.
You wrote:
The Imam meant don't follow the teachings of the Nine Avatars but follow the teaching of the present Avtaar.
Dear Sir then follow the teachings and Hidayat of your present Avtar.
Follow the Tenets of Preamble prescribed by Hazar Imam for Ismaili mureeds including myself and you.
swamidada wrote:
You have been insisting on Ta'weel in mostly of your postings, now you wrote 'there is no need to do that'. Make up your mind. Article 'B' of Preamble clearly mentions that it is the authority and right of Hazar Imam to explain Ta'weel of Allah's final message.
The Constitution cannot be compared to Allah's final message and to talk of Ta'weel is meaningless in the first place. The constitutions keep changing whereas Allah final message does not change.
The constitutions are the "clothes we wear" - the zaher aspect of our faith. Our traditions on the other hand are the Batin - the body. The zaher is limited in time whereas the batin is limitless.
The tenets mentioned in the preamble are time bound whereas the principles mentioned in our traditions are timeless.
See need a bit of intelligence!! I am writing about Preamble but to distract readers you keep writing constitution. Ismaili Constitution can be changed according to changing times, but not the TENETS of Islam already mentioned and explained in Quran.
You wrote;
"The tenets mentioned in the preamble are time bound whereas the principles mentioned in our traditions are timeless".
Can you explain Tenets are important or traditions? Traditions can be changed with passing time but Tenets not. Tenets are rigid. Can you change principle of Tawhid, Muhammad being final Prophet of Allah, Quran as final message of Allah, Mowla Ali being first Imam as declared by Prophet Muhammad?
swamidada wrote:
Dear Sir then follow the teachings and Hidayat of your present Avtar.
Follow the Tenets of Preamble prescribed by Hazar Imam for Ismaili mureeds including myself and you.
The preamble is NOT a Farman from the Imam. It is a statement of our official doctrines or tenets. The guidance contained in the Farmans/Qasidas/Ginans are to be followed. They are quite clear that the Noor of Imamat is eternal and did not commence at Ghadir!
swamidada wrote:
Can you explain Tenets are important or traditions? Traditions can be changed with passing time but Tenets not. Tenets are rigid. Can you change principle of Tawhid, Muhammad being final Prophet of Allah, Quran as final message of Allah, Mowla Ali being first Imam as declared by Prophet Muhammad?
Traditions are of course very important. They have existed for thousands of years. They cannot be changed or tampered. Hence MHI has called Ginans a wonderful tradition. Tenets can be changed according to the context. We never had a preamble before 1986. Constitutions keep changing. Mowla Ali was not the first Imam. He was the first Imam in the present cycle. There were Imams before him.
Actualy Gadir e Khum has never been used in the way Imamat was defined and justified in Ismaili faith. It may have been for non Ismailis or shariatis or in periods of Taqiyah but not among the Ismailis of the esoteric tradition.
In the Asal Du'a the Imamat of Hazrat Ali was legitimised from the Imamt of his father Abu Talib Vali going back to what people have found to be names of Summerian and Mesapothemian deities, well beyond the Das Avars which only came much later.
And the Imamate, in the new Dua, is legitimised from the Quran 36:12 which defines the status and power of Imam e Mubeen.
swamidada wrote:
Can you explain Tenets are important or traditions? Traditions can be changed with passing time but Tenets not. Tenets are rigid. Can you change principle of Tawhid, Muhammad being final Prophet of Allah, Quran as final message of Allah, Mowla Ali being first Imam as declared by Prophet Muhammad?
He was the first Imam in the present cycle.
But there is no mention of cycles in Ginanic literature.
But there is no mention of cycles in Ginanic literature.
There are mentions of cycle not only in the ginans, but also in the Granths and in Asal Du'a which gives some names of Imams for the 3 karan period, then for the 4 Kalaps, also for each of the last 4 cycles and thereafter the new cycle starting with Adam. Read Bandali Haji: Nooran Allah Noor. (google it)
swamidada wrote:
When Imam changes Farman of his predecessor he usually don't declare but just issues the new Farman. There is no mention of 'dus avtar or reincarnation in our Dua or Preamble the most important document of Ismaili Tenet. If dus avtar and reincarnation were part of our faith then should have been mentioned in Dua and Preamble.
On reference of KIM, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," NAW (9) AVTAR MUKI NAKHO (leave 9 Avtars).
August 20, 1899- Jungbar.
There is no need to repeat items that were already mentioned by our 48th Imam.
Article 6.2.4 published in the Ismaili Paris Conference has asked all Jamats and individuals to "forward all firmans, whether in manuscript, printed or any other form, of Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah, Mowlana Shah Hassan Ali Shah, and Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, to the Ismaili Association of Pakistan by 31st Dec 1975. These bodies also request individual members of their respective jamats, through suitable announcements, to make available any such material that may be in their possession."
But there is no mention of cycles in Ginanic literature.
There are mentions of cycle not only in the ginans, but also in the Granths and in Asal Du'a which gives some names of Imams for the 3 karan period, then for the 4 Kalaps, also for each of the last 4 cycles and thereafter the new cycle starting with Adam. Read Bandali Haji: Nooran Allah Noor. (google it)
I down loaded Noorun Ala Noor by missionary Shams Bandali Haji as you mentioned. Could not find any particular part of Ginan definitely mentioning doctrine of cycles. Let me quote what I found. The book is collection of lectures by missionary Saheb to mission class students. My findings:
He said in lecture, Shariat is Huqq and essential.
He quoted Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah that first of all you are Muslims.
First came into existence Noor of Punjtan Pak.
In lectures he has mainly discussed;
Mairaj
Shabb e Baraat
History of Mowla Ali
Code of conduct
Mowla jo ghar
Dasond.
Mostly he has shed light on Dus Avtar and incarnations.
He has mentioned ages of 3 Karans, 4 Kalaps, 4 Yugas without discussing cycles. Karans, Kalaps, and Yugas are found in old Hindu literature.
Where is the copy or script of ASAL DUA written by Pir Sadardin. You tried hard, I tried hard unable to find or locate.
swamidada wrote:
I down loaded Noorun Ala Noor by missionary Shams Bandali Haji as you mentioned. Could not find any particular part of Ginan definitely mentioning doctrine of cycles. Let me quote what I found. The book is collection of lectures by missionary Saheb to mission class students. My findings:
He said in lecture, Shariat is Huqq and essential.
He quoted Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah that first of all you are Muslims.
First came into existence Noor of Punjtan Pak.
In lectures he has mainly discussed;
Mairaj
Shabb e Baraat
History of Mowla Ali
Code of conduct
Mowla jo ghar
Dasond.
Mostly he has shed light on Dus Avtar and incarnations.
He has mentioned ages of 3 Karans, 4 Kalaps, 4 Yugas without discussing cycles. Karans, Kalaps, and Yugas are found in old Hindu literature.
Where is the copy or script of ASAL DUA written by Pir Sadardin. You tried hard, I tried hard unable to find or locate.
I don't know which book you read or in which planete you live nor why you misquote our Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah by saying the he said first you are Muslim but you hide that he continued that you have gone higher and you have become Ismailis. Also I do not know why you are saying that I have not find the Asal Dua, you should be out of your mind, I have more than 25 manuscripts and 30 books of the Asal Du'a so why persist with so many lies.
I will not entertain you. You are a write-off. Please do nto waste our time and stop posting here. If your aim is to mislead Ismailis, you are at the wrong place, here we do check all posting and we do delete fake news and fake accounts.
swamidada wrote:
I down loaded Noorun Ala Noor by missionary Shams Bandali Haji as you mentioned. Could not find any particular part of Ginan definitely mentioning doctrine of cycles. Let me quote what I found. The book is collection of lectures by missionary Saheb to mission class students. My findings:
He said in lecture, Shariat is Huqq and essential.
He quoted Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah that first of all you are Muslims.
First came into existence Noor of Punjtan Pak.
In lectures he has mainly discussed;
Mairaj
Shabb e Baraat
History of Mowla Ali
Code of conduct
Mowla jo ghar
Dasond.
Mostly he has shed light on Dus Avtar and incarnations.
He has mentioned ages of 3 Karans, 4 Kalaps, 4 Yugas without discussing cycles. Karans, Kalaps, and Yugas are found in old Hindu literature.
Where is the copy or script of ASAL DUA written by Pir Sadardin. You tried hard, I tried hard unable to find or locate.
I have more than 25 manuscripts and 30 books of the Asal Du'a
Kiya baat hai! 25 manuscripts of Asal Dua you have. Please post One and I shall pray for your salvation.
Eid al-Ghadir – A Celebration of the Continuum of Divine Light (Noor) through Ali and the Imams of the time disseminating Allah’s Divine Will through Farmans, blessings, and mercy—for our physical and spiritual worlds—like the Qur’an, to be shared, not withheld.
Eid al-Ghadir marks a deeply meaningful moment for Shia Muslims, including the Ismaili Muslim community. It commemorates the historic event at Ghadir Khumm, where Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family), returning from his Farewell Pilgrimage, proclaimed:
“Whomsoever I am the Mawla (guardian/master), Ali is also his Mawla.”
This declaration was not merely a political appointment. It was a spiritual affirmation of the Divine Will—marking the continuation of God’s guidance through Imam Ali as the bearer of Divine Light (Noor).
As the Qur’an states:
“Obey Allah and obey the Messenger…” (4:59)
In the Ismaili faith, this event represents a continuation of the manifestation of Divine Light (Noor)—from the Qur’an revealed through the Prophet, to the ongoing Tawil (esoteric interpretation) and Talim (teaching) offered through the Imams.
The appointment of Imam Ali is seen as a formal transmission of the same Noor that illuminated the Prophets. This Light is eternal—its essence unchanging, though it takes different human forms throughout time. It is this same Light that Imam Ja‘far al-Sadiq referred to when he said:
“Two thousand years before creation, Muhammad and Ali were one Light (Noor) before God.”
(Source: Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi, The Divine Guide in Early Shi‘ism, p. 31)
The Appointment of Imams and the Continuum of Noor
The difference in the appointment of Imams lies in the process: upon the passing of each Imam, the next Imam—designated through Nass (divinely inspired appointment)—inherits the Noor. This designation is often delivered in the form of a Farman, and is divinely ordained.
While Imam Ali was appointed during the lifetime of the Prophet, he received the Noor upon the Prophet’s passing (peace be upon him).
The Continuum of Noor
Ismaili theology embraces the belief in a continuous, divinely guided presence throughout human history—from Prophet Adam to Prophet Muhammad, and from Imam Ali to the present living Imam.
This concept is supported by Ismaili cosmology, in which the metaphysical chain begins with Allah, then emanates as the First Intellect (Aql al-Awwal), followed by the Universal Soul, and so on—culminating in the Imam, who manifests Divine Light in the world today.
Thus, the Prophet’s declaration at Ghadir Khumm is not an isolated event. It is a reaffirmation of an eternal, divine covenant—a sacred continuity of guidance, mercy, and justice.
Clarifying the Hadith
The Prophet also said:
“O Allah, be a friend to whoever is a friend of Ali, and be an enemy to whoever is an enemy of Ali.”
While sometimes misunderstood as exclusivist, this invocation is best understood as a call for alignment with justice, truth, and Divine Light.
It is not about enmity toward others, but about standing with what is just and divinely guided.
The Qur’an reinforces this spirit of inclusion and compassion:
“There is no compulsion in religion.” (2:256)
“Whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good—shall have their reward with their Lord.” (2:62)
And as Mawlana Hazar Imam has reminded us in Farmans:
“The Divine is not exclusive to any one faith… Pluralism is the divine imperative—the will of God.”
A Celebration of Gratitude, Guidance, and Service
Eid al-Ghadir is not a declaration of supremacy or separation. It is a moment to recognize the Divine Light and give thanks for the unbroken chain - rope - of Imam - Divine Guidance, and to renew our commitment to serve with humility, uphold pluralism, and embrace compassion.
Eid-e Ghadir marks the anniversary of a significant event in Muslim history. According to Shia belief, as well as tradition and historical interpretation, this occasion commemorates the crucial meeting at Ghadir Khumm, when Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family)—following a divine command from Allah—appointed Hazrat Ali as his successor and the first of a continuous lineage of hereditary Imams.
According to numerous reliable sources of hadith, it is recorded that, upon receiving the divine order, the Holy Prophet stopped at an oasis known as Ghadir Khumm and addressed a large crowd of Muslims who accompanied him. It is said that the Prophet proclaimed,
“Man kuntu mawlahu fa aliyyun mawlahu”, that is, “He from whom I am Mawla, Ali is also his Mawla. ” The Prophet then prayed: “O Allah, befriend those who befriend him and bestow your support to those who support him.”
This week, Shia Muslims across the world observe Eid-e Ghadir, marking the anniversary of an important event in Muslim history. According to Shia belief, tradition, and interpretation of history, this occasion commemorates the pivotal gathering at Ghadir Khumm, when Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) — based on a divine command from Allah — designated Hazrat Ali as his successor and the first in the continuing line of hereditary Imams.
In historical sources, it is recorded that on the way back to Medina after performing a pilgrimage to Mecca, the Prophet received a revelation — Surah al-Ma’ida (sura 5 ayat 67) — that we recite in our daily prayers:
“O Messenger, deliver [to the people] what has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not do so, then you will not have delivered His message …”
Numerous reliable hadith sources — both Shia and Sunni — record this event, which took place in the year 632 CE. Upon receiving this revelation, the Holy Prophet stopped at an oasis known as Ghadir Khumm, and addressed a large gathering of Muslims who had accompanied him. It is said that The Prophet proclaimed: “Man kuntu mawlahu fa aliyyun mawlahu” meaning: “He whose Mawla I am, Ali is his Mawla.” The Prophet then prayed: “O Allah, be a friend of whoever is his friend and extend your support to those who support him.”
According to Shia belief, by declaring Hazrat Ali as Mawla after him, the Prophet transferred his own spiritual authority bestowed upon him by Allah to Hazrat Ali, making him — and all the Imams that follow — the Amirul Mu’minin, or Master of the Believers.
On instruction from Prophet Muhammad, Hazrat Ali received baiyat (the oath of allegiance), from the Muslims assembled there. According to Shia traditions and sources, following the proclamation, the final verse of the Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet:
“On this day, I have perfected for you your religion, completed my favours upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.”
This marks the end of the period of nabuwwa, or Prophethood, and the historical beginning of the Institution of Imamat. Eid-e Ghadir is an anniversary of special significance to all Shia Muslims, as it is also associated with the well-attested tradition in which the Prophet is said to have proclaimed:
“I am leaving among you two matters of great weight (al-thaqalayn), the Book of Allah and my kindred (itrati), the People of my House (Ahl al-Bayt), and these two shall never be separated until they return to me at the Pool [of Kawthar in Paradise on the Day of Judgement]…”
The Shia Ismaili tradition bears witness to the continuity of the authority vested at Ghadir Khumm. Today, this leadership and authority is vested in Mawlana Hazar Imam. The rope of Imamat has continued over 1,400 years, from Hazrat Ali, to the present 50th hereditary Imam and direct descendant of Prophet Muhammad through Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Bibi Fatima al-Zahra, Khatun-i Jannat.
In commemorating Eid-e Ghadir, the Jamat celebrates the seminal event of Ghadir Khumm, reaffirming our allegiance to the Imam-of-the-Time as the direct lineal successor and inheritor of the authority of Hazrat Ali.