kalam-e-imam-e-zaman

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:39 pm

lol, still fighting and arguing ???

well the biggest example is the lawsuit !!!! if imam is allah and not mortal ,why would allah take xxx person to the court......where as the court of allah is above all !!!!!

he is the best judge....but here allah is going to a court and seeking justice, come on guyz believe what you wanna believe but atleast dont do shirk openly !

please !!!!!

then someone said imam sultan muhammad shah[as] said that if somebody thinks him as allah or shariat level then thats a shirkh.......which you guys are doing !

then imam[as] further added that on marifat level this question never arises....yes !!! for a simple fact that once for eg: samir reaches marifat, he himself is the imam/allah etc etc etc in short he has knowledge of everything !!

think before you leap

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:17 pm

@shiraz you are mixing zahir and batin..therefore it is difficult for you to understand. It will be better if you read posts related to this topic as already there has been lot of discussion on this matter under different topics of discussion

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:22 pm

As regarding to the word "Insha Allah" that appears in Farman.
See the Quranic verses ..there is the use of word "Allah" "It is He" for God e.g
002.029 It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

nurdinnurdin · Post by **nurdinnurdin** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 3:28 pm

In the Quran I believe it says that Allah is very unhappy when people believe in Idols. To say MHI is god is tantanmount to idolatory. The present Imam has never said he was god but unfortunately its those Ismailis with blinkers on think MHI is god. They have attached labels on the Imam, that he can speak many languages, he can forgive our sins, he can give barakat and so on. SMS did claim he was god but to my knowledge the present Imam has never said that he is God. In the past SMS got away with outlandish proclaimations about the Imam, the Jamat was not so educated at that time and accepted what ever was told by the Imam, in the present age our community is well educated and I think the new generation will not except incredulous things about the Imam, maybe this is the reason why SMS firmans are not read in khanna. MHI is just like another human being, he has to go the wash room, he has illness and he has happiness and he gets things things wrong from time to time like the rest of us. MHI has done a great job for the underprivilege in our society, his accomplishment is very commendable but we are talking about ataching divinity to the Imam and not what he has done in material world. [/b]

mAli1 · Post by **mAli1** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:48 pm

Nurdin, As discussed earlier in this thread, every individual has his/her own relationship with their imam. So you are right in your opinion but i certainly disagree. In my belief Ali is Allah. And to answer to your other point MHI and Imam SMS have the same noor. Mowla is aql-e-kul and so i dont want to judge my mowla with my lack of knowledge.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:49 pm

nurdinnurdin wrote:The present Imam has never said he was god but unfortunately its those Ismailis with blinkers on think MHI is god. They have attached labels on the Imam, that he can speak many languages, he can forgive our sins, he can give barakat and so on. SMS did claim he was god but to my knowledge the present Imam has never said that he is God. [/b]

You have to make a distinction between the zaher and the batin. In the zaher the Imam relates himself to everyone including the Ismailis. In the batin the Imam deals with his murids only. Hence there are different approaches involved. To the others the Imam is only an ordinary man and hence the Imam appears in that form to them and he will not say anything in public that he is anything other than an ordinary human. For Ismailis, every murid has his/her own relationship with him and that can be anything according to the person's commitment to the practice. At the very least he is the bearer of the Noor to them.

20014413 · Post by **20014413** » Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:21 pm

<A name=34012></A>Maybe MHI will have to take the form of Lord Krishna and bring his sudarshan chakra and enlarge himself like Krishna does in Maharabhata. only then will people beleive that he is All..........wait wait wait wait. If MHI does that my people might call him a jadugar just like Prophet Mohammed was callaed a magician when he showed his uncle that gold and silver tree to bring his faith in Islam. Ha Ha Ha. Good Luck MHI some of your followers are now too educated.

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:39 am

It is not very hard to understand
It is similiar to
You are the bearer of RUH. You have access to the limitless capabalities of Ruh embodied in you.

Imam-e-Zaman is the bearer of Noor. He has access to the infinite. He knows how to access it and we have asked him to guide us, to teach us how to access it.

If you tell a child that he is a physical manifestation of Ruh his response may be the same as when someone with a similiar understanding is told that The Imam is a physical manifestation of Noor.

In as much you are Ruh, Imam is Allah.

If you still do not get it after this simple explanation we will just have to wait for you to grow up as we would the child in this example.

People, please do not try to convince anyone about Imam being Allah as they are yet to understand that they themselves are Ruh.

You could have an extremely intelligent child but trying to explain what sexual union is or feels like, is futile until he has matured and experienced it for himself but then explanation is unnecessary.

Those who persist in trying to explain are wasting time and effort or have themselves not experienced what they think they understand.

There is no such thing as understanding this.
You have to experience it to know it or you don't.

The very fact that I am trying to explain is proof of me thinking I have understood what I have not experienced.

Ciao.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:20 pm

nurudin from your post its quite clear that you are non ismaili and if you are, then there is no need to pretend to be Ismaili (at least an Ismaili will never think and believe of Imam saying lie or doing mistakes). You are totally wasting your time if you think that by writing the words "kufur" "shirk" "Quran" etc you will be able to change the beliefs and thinking of Ismailis. Its better if you keep your "beliefs" with yourself and dont try to preach your theories and logic. No matter you make multiple ids or do whatever you want.

From Memoirs of Aga Khan
What has been my own policy with my followers? Our religion is our religion, you either believe in it or you do not. You can leave a faith but you cannot, if you do not accept its tenets, remain within it and claim to "reform" it. You can abandon those tenets, but you cannot try to change them and still protest that you belong to the particular sect that holds them. Many people have left the Ismaili faith, just as other have joined it throughout the ages. About a score of people out of many millions-a small group in Karachi and in India-pretended to be Ismailis but called themselves "reformers". The true Ismailis immediately excommunicated them. There has never been any question of changing the Ismaili faith; that faith has remained the same and must remain the same. Those who have not believed in it have rightly left it; we bear them no ill-will and respect them for their sincerity.

abhyasi · Post by **abhyasi** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:29 am

Ya Ali Madad I have been reading all the comments about Imam being Allah or not. A very simple solution is that why don't we all start the search. Lets start everyday at 4.00 am. Or better still 3.00 am (313- Bhulo nahin tran wagyani ibadat maan ghano faydo cheh). Or better still (According to imams farman- Haar paal haar sayat khudane yaad karvu joiye). or better still developing Nuseri/mansur iman. Perhaps then our hearts will say as Pir Shams 'Mukhda dekhya tabb mann harakhya - Pir shams Kanthi sunaya. Recognition of the Imam of the time is the foundation of Ismaili religion.

asal · Post by **asal** » Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:57 pm

Or better still 3.00 am

I DONT REMMBER ANY FARMAN FROM MHI FOR 3.00 AM ANY HOW WHAT IS YOUR VIEW ABOUT MHI LAW SUIT . I KNOW ABHYASI GUROP IS DOING SAME KIND OF THING IN SMAL LEVEL.

abhyasi · Post by **abhyasi** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:38 am

About 3.00 am I have mentioned the book in my previous email. About the lawsuit I wouldn't want to comment on that. Regarding the Abhyasi group or any other group -we are all ismailies who want to share our knowledge with each other. Sometimes we agree and sometimes disagree but gaining knowledge and giving knowledge is the fundamental principle of Islam.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:07 pm

Totally agree with ABHYASI, its really strange that imam's lawyer is asking for a share of the money earned by this so called ismaili man.....i mean , did imam did all this for money or the real reason is ALI ALLAH.....for there are firmans that talk about noor of allah and so on.......i think imam wants to hide this from the rest of the world

but if he is ali allah, then why would he hide the fact ????

it is really unfortuante to see imam had to drag his follower to the court but what is the main motive ??

is it the money ?? or ALI ALLAH ??

asal · Post by **asal** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 1:28 pm

I wouldn't want to comment on that. Regarding the Abhyasi group or any other group -we are all ismailies who want to share our knowledge with each other. Sometimes we agree and sometimes disagree but gaining knowledge and giving knowledge is the fundamental principle of Islam.

i am not saying abhyasi group or hunzia or any other group is not ismailies
what i am saying is if mhi has change 3 am or 2 am farman to 4 to 5 am than
all ismailies have to follow that. there is no argument in sms 313 farmans they are true farmans.but if mhi says today that new time is 4.30 to 6 than it is 4.30 to 6 then.if abhyasi group thinks that sharing knowledge is printing farmans and arranging class then sharing knowledge has a limit too. because i have never heard that abhyasi group is authorized to printing farmans

nurdinnurdin · Post by **nurdinnurdin** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:21 pm

Is MHI god? The way I look at this subject is that there are two strong opinions on this forum. The first group of people accepts MHI as god in batini sense and there is the other group, people like myself who do not think MHI is god. I cannot speak for the others, but I did my research on this subject and I have come to the conclusion that MHI is not god, batini or zaheri.
First point is to look at what mowla has to say on this subject. I believe shortly after MHI became Imam he was interviewed in London and was ask this question whether he is god, and MHI categorically said no! If he is god then why is he saying no to this interviewer? There are some Ismaili will have you believe that mowla cannot openly say he is god. Why not? If he is god what is he afraid off?
The second point, if I’m not mistaken there is a firman by Mowla some years ago where in reference to Jesus, he clearly states that Jesus could not be son of god because there is no human attachment to god.
The third point is what the Holy Quran says about god? Surah Al-Iklas explains clearly
Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem
Qul Huw-Allahu Ahad
Allah-us-Samad
Lam yalid wl lam yulad
Wa lam yakul lahu kufuwan ahad
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally besought of all!
He begets not nor was begotten.
And there is none comparable unto Him.

nurdinnurdin · Post by **nurdinnurdin** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:32 pm

"He begets not nor was begotten." MHI fathered 4 children and his father was Prince Aly Khan. The bottom line is that everybody has there own theorys or thoughts on this subject, its for each individual to decide.

mAli1 · Post by **mAli1** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:19 pm

Well you are right that everyone has their own theories. But pir's already saw this coming. They knew that one day these questions would arise and thats why they already said in the ginans to warn us.

ejee ek feekar munivar tamaaree chhe amne
maanas roope saaheb jaanno ho bhaai ji.......................4

O Respectful: O true believers! We have one concern about you and that is that you might confuse Haazar Imaam in His physical form as an ordinary man.

This is just my belief , I am not trying to force any viewpoints but just trying to discuss with other ismaili brothers.

sheza · Post by **sheza** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:07 am

No research to back the claim, but I would argue that ismailis(atleast khoja) are split pretty evenly as to this question.

and if u think of it, its a pretty basic question, as far as religious doctrines go. im just surprised that to have such an elaborate network or communities, organizations, societies, research institute and what not, books on rituals, and practices, the whole nine yards. even a constitution!

how can you function as a religion with ambiguity on such a basic question?

and the only answer people have to this is something is x on zahiri level and y on batini level.

If that really is the truth, why hide it? the only reason could be fear.

so that means:
1) truth is less powerful than fear
2) zahir is stronger than batin

i would love to hear if there's any other way to put this argument

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:13 pm

Shiraz, its improper for you to assume things on behalf of Imam. Whatever he has done has perhaps the reason behind it which ordinary people are failed to understand.
Nurudin what reasearch have you done? you have perhaps read few verses of Quran and may be some Islamic books thats all...Read the books by Imam and Pir. Study the Ginans, Farmans and you may read the books of sufis, saints with spiritual knowledge like Shams Tabriz, Mowlana Rumi etc then you will understand it.
Once you will have base, then only you can understand. Otherwise its just like you are trying to explain periodic table and chemical equations to 3 year old child who is unable understand it at all !

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:17 pm

There is no point in quoting Surah Ikhlas here. Dont you think that all Ismailis read this Surah in Dua and therefore know about it. All the questions/doubts/arguments which you have, had already been discussed in other threads. Therefore I suggest you to search it to see the relevant threads ...read the discussion and then you may comment there if you wish so.

sunnydays · Post by **sunnydays** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:28 pm

YAM All,

I don't understand why there seems to be hostility on this issue.
If we can all agree that the Imam as authority over Ismailis, and we are to obey him all all times, then we are all on the same page.

As far as the esoteric concept of noor goes, Imams SMS and MHI have countlessly explained that it is an esoteric concept that can only be grasped through inner search.

As such, trying to explain your perspective on it is rather futile. Given that this is a concept that goes beyond the mind, senses, and reason.

It's nice to know that we have concepts that go beyond Sharia - concepts that potentially make us closer to our creator. But I think we need to understand it's a PERSONAL search and a PERSONAL understanding that goes BEYOND REASON.

Hope you're all having a good day - wherever you are.

nurdinnurdin · Post by **nurdinnurdin** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:13 pm

“You have perhaps read few verses of Quran and may be some Islamic books that’s all” Star-Munir you are brushing off these evidences as insignificant. The words of the Quran and Mowla’s own admittance that he is not a deity, if those are not solid proofs then I don’t know what is?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

office" /><o:p></o:p>It’s clear from this forum that there are murids who accepts pirs ginans to the words. According those murids mowla is god in the batini sense. Batini is an abstract area where it’s hard to proof things. We are told lots things in our faith that the answer is in the next world, so far I have not come across anybody who has been in the next world and come back to verified what has been told to us. The ways things appear to me that you can practice Ismailism two ways. Number one way is to accept everything that been told to us and not to question, basically accept our religion blindly. “Bhora mane prena” The second way is to explore with the knowledge we have available, Mowla Ali has said” Intellect is another facet of our faith” I think its important that we come up with the answers that allay any confusion that are lurking in our minds about our faith, I have come across many murids who completely lost, particularly the younger generation, they need to know what our religion is, and its not only about what the AKN has done or Partnership walk. The essence of our religion is not clearly defined. My experience has been the deeper I go into the more I’m lost. Peace.<o:p></o:p>

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:54 pm

All that is on earth
will perish;
But will abide (forever)
The Face of your Lord,
full of Majesty, Bounty
and Honour."

Holy Qur'ran, 55:26,27

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 1:49 pm

When you are studying Quran, there is need to understand and interpret it in the light of Ginans and Farmans. Now you had quoted of Surah Ikhlas. Noor of Imam has no son, no brother, sis, father.The divine light is same in all Imams. So don't mix the Noor with Physical body of Imam. Imam has always claimed to be holder of this Noor. Tell me in which Farman or interview Imam has denied it. If Imam is just ordinary human being, then why are we following it? Its not Ginans...that claim and give idea that is totally different from Quran. Infact you may be surprised that even Hazrat Ali claimed to be creator. You may study Ginans, Qasidas and manaqibs, Authentic Hadiths, Quran there is not any contradiction. Its only misinterpretation which creates confusion.

This section is meant for the discussion regarding Farman and not about concept of Imam. So its my request again to please post your views/comments/questions in the topics that are related to it. You may search it and you will findout a number of threads/topics regarding this discussion

Post by **Admin** » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:34 pm

Defenses Glorifying the Aga Khan filed in federal Court - 2010-04-29

Date: Thursday, 2010, April 29
Source: Heritage News

In a surprisingly rapid twist of events, both Mr Tajdin and Mr Jiwa have filed their respective statements of Defense this 29th of April 2010. They affirm to being devoted followers who will unconditionally abide by the wishes of the Aga Khan, whom they glorify in their defense.

They also set out to establish that this lawsuit is not actually filed by the Aga Khan, but instead has been fraudulently initiated by someone close to him in his secretariat.

Why the defendant Tajdin has not yet been served is linked to this aspect of the defense.

The fact that extracts from letters purported to have been sent by the Imam to the defendant Tajdin are NOT even mentioned in the Statement of Claim speaks for itself.

more here

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29740

both defenses can be downloaded/read in the bottom of that linked page.

samirnoorali · Post by **samirnoorali** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:47 am

To whom it may concern:

Since the issue revolves around the communications made between both parties then it would make sense to let the public know exactly what was communicated in those letters and the telephone call made by Shafiq Sachedina. Since the letters were fake and the phone call was threatening, kindly give us an understanding as to what specifically said so that we can understand your point of view.

Sincerely,

Samir Noorali

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:45 pm

Everything will be disclosed. Just be patient.

There is a lot of documentation and there are several proofs that will be disclosed when the time comes.

Nagib

samirnoorali · Post by **samirnoorali** » Fri Apr 30, 2010 10:16 pm

Dear nagib:

Thank you for your reply. Yes indeed, the documentations and the phone call are important so that the public can see who is telling the truth. There was also a communication read out in jamat khane. With permission from the Admin, we would like to re-analyze the anouncement made in jamat khane so that we can pinpoint if it was a direct communication from the Imam or the LIF.

I appreciate the Admin and all his efforts.

Sincerely,

Samir Noorali

aminhooda · Post by **aminhooda** » Sat May 01, 2010 2:07 pm

As a mortal unfortunately, we fail to realize that as soon as human language is used to describe the beyond and unfathomable, we materialize that which is spiritual.

It is sad as mortals we claim to grasp "Noor" of Allah that is invested in Imam of the time. None of us (self-appointed expounder of faith) can grasp the esoteric and metaphoric, multitude of meanings presented in our holy book Quran, yet with limited control on our carnal nature, we must try to comment on that is All-Purified by God Almighty, the Imam of the time.

Poet of the East Iqbal writes that if you truly want to understand Quran, then it must be revealed as it was to Prophet Muhammad (S.A.S). We are so far from that blessed stature; therefore, to each is their understanding and we must respect it.

To an Ismaili, divinity and holiness of Imam is not due to its human body, it is the "Authority", the "Noor" that is invested by Almighty Allah. With the command of Almighty Allah, prophet Muhammad (S.A.S) appointed his progeny through Hazrat Ali-Ibn-Talib (AS) His trustee. Amir-ul-Momineen hazrat Mowla Ali's Noor is the source of guidance and knowledge, the interpreter of faith for Shia Ismailis.

Post by **Admin** » Sat May 01, 2010 6:02 pm

samirnoorali wrote:Yes indeed, the documentations and the phone call are important so that the public can see who is telling the truth.
Samir Noorali

All documents received from defendants on this case are to be posted in the coming days but the following documents are already here:

Proof that the Statement of Claim was not served upon the main defendant but that this defendant, Nagib, has chosen to file a defense anyway.
http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/files/i ... mbnail.jpg

One of the Expertises by a leading American forensic expert confirming that the signature on the letter sent to the defendant from the secretariat has been forged.
http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29752

www.ismaili.net

kalam-e-imam-e-zaman

Mazharallah

Kalme imame zaman

kalam-e-imam-e zaman

Is Hazir-Imam god?

cont

Letters

Thank you

Re: Thank you