Is Quran compilation complete?

[zznoor]

Yes, it is real easy to ask these questions to our Imam and many Ismailis ask him too but he does not give us agadam bagdam and tikdam answer that if for sure,we Ismailis are very lucky to have Rasikun fil Ilm at present time and therefore if we do not follow edited, omitted and outdated Quran and follow what is he says then it is OK for question like this and more.
.

Ask your Rasikum fil Ilm if he considers Quran is outdated and omitted? I want to see if he has guts to answer?

He actually has answered this a number of times - you really need to pay attention - read kalame imame mubeen - you will get your answer.

Shams

kalame imame mubeen is out of print an according to this thread
Kalam e imame mubeen
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... m+e+mubeen
I quote from first post

" My late grandfather learned Gujarati to be able to read the original document and it changed his life. As I understand it, the compilation was withdrawn from circulation in the 1980s by MHI"

So why don't you give me quote from Farman

Further please note
In this thread Posted by Admin On, 25 Jun 2004 07:32 pm on page 2

When the leaders of our concil asked Mowlana Hazar Imam if the Quran was tampered with or if anything was missing he said that the Quran which we are reading today, is the same Quran which was read/composed during the time of Prophet Muhammad

Now when your MHI says this, does it not supersede what 48 said?

[Admin]

Source? Anyone can say Hazar Imam said this and that, the Imam Himself told us not to follow rumours

[a_27826]

A small question out of curIosity.

FOR WHOM DID MARY MOTHER OF JESUS CHRIST CONCEIVE?

Can you elaborate your question please ?

maybe this will help

019:017 and she took a veil apart from them; then We sent unto her Our Spirit that presented himself to her a man without fault.

021:091 And she who guarded her virginity, so We breathed into her of Our spirit and appointed her and her son to be a sign unto all beings.

To 27826:
Ya ali madad.

The question is for "Whom" n not How.

Whenever ever you post an Ayat from from an index,Please also explain the Ayats briefly your understanding of it.

We wish to see you as a debater rather than Librarian of Ayats from subject Index.

Both the Ayats is about 'How',what is the similarity n difference in both those Ayats you have reffered.

Do they complement or contradict each other?

I am still a learner of Quran.

Yes, you are right, the answer was "how" rather than "for whom" Mary conceived Jesus ....

that why i was hesitance in replying initially and asked "Can you elaborate your question please ?

But i will try to answer.

When God decides to do some thing, and it just happens.......

003:047 'Lord,' said Mary, 'how shall I have a son seeing no mortal has touched me?' 'Even so,' God said, 'God creates what He will. When He decrees a thing He does but say to it "Be," and it is.

But God sometimes desires things to happen but does not want it to happen just because He wants it to happen but rather He wants to "try" humans with their free will, whether they will do things that He wants them to do.

And that's his reason for creating "humans"

076:002 Verily, We created man from a mingled clot, to try him; and we gave him hearing and sight.

so God created law of nature for men to try them and He doesn't want to interfere in men's decisions, but he made sure, there will always be a guide so that men can be guided.

017:095 Say: 'Had there been in the earth angels walking. at peace, We would have sent down upon them out of heaven an angel as Messenger.'.

The above verse 017:095, confirms us our belief, that the office of Imammate was, is and will always be there.

Now we come to Mary, she wanted to stay pure by guarding her virginity and God desired her to conceive a child who will be His apostle.

For Him, there was not a problem. He just thinks and it happens.

021:091 And she who guarded her virginity, so We breathed into her of Our spirit and appointed her and her son to be a sign unto all beings.

The key word is "so" in the above verse.

If Mary had decided to marry and have children, then God would not have interfered His own law of nature, and Jesus would have been born out of Mary in normal way and would have guided his umma.

I know that doesn't answer to your question "whom".

If you want to know whose "sperm" was there in her body, then the answer is: God doesn't need sperms or anything else to create anything

[ShamsB]

Ask your Rasikum fil Ilm if he considers Quran is outdated and omitted? I want to see if he has guts to answer?

He actually has answered this a number of times - you really need to pay attention - read kalame imame mubeen - you will get your answer.

Shams

kalame imame mubeen is out of print an according to this thread
Kalam e imame mubeen
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... m+e+mubeen
I quote from first post

" My late grandfather learned Gujarati to be able to read the original document and it changed his life. As I understand it, the compilation was withdrawn from circulation in the 1980s by MHI"

So why don't you give me quote from Farman

Further please note
In this thread Posted by Admin On, 25 Jun 2004 07:32 pm on page 2

When the leaders of our concil asked Mowlana Hazar Imam if the Quran was tampered with or if anything was missing he said that the Quran which we are reading today, is the same Quran which was read/composed during the time of Prophet Muhammad

Now when your MHI says this, does it not supersede what 48 said?

Once again - you don't get it.

A farman made by a previous Imam is only cancelled if a new farman is made to the Jamat cancelling the previous farman.

HAZAR IMAM hasn't cancelled any farmans of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah.

As per the rules of the site - I am not going to post a farman for you to read - coz I don't think that it's going to make a difference.

You quote what Admin said about leadership - I am going to ask you and Admin for the reference to that.

I don't think anything is going to change your mind - you've adopted the "sunni" thought - and not that there is anything wrong with that - i've quoted the Quran to you before - in regards to your faith being yours and mine being mine - yet you seem not to get that and are intent on trying to prove this faith and the imam wrong.
You don't seem to get the notion of plurality - rather want to pursue uniformity - and in this case your notion of uniformity. Maybe you are secretly insecure in your definitions and are trying to superimpose those on others so that it makes you secure.

Once again - to me - the Quran is incomplete - it has been tampered with - we have Farmans of the Imams and we have historical evidence.

However that is not enough for you - but I don't think anything will be enough for you - because even when presented with evidence from the Quran in regards to plurality and in regards to tolerance - you haven't accepted those and have come up with your own interpretations.

I have observed that in your case - it is only your interpretation that always seems valid to you and everyone else is wrong. You are unwilling and unyielding to any other source of knowledge.

Maybe it is the other way around?

Like I said in a previous post - even if the Prophet were to apparate infront of you and proclaim the Quran incomplete in it's current form - you'd doubt him - because I don't think you are here in a constructive manner - but rather a destructive fashion and it bothers you to no avail that we are strong in our conviction in our faith.

As I've stated before - quoting the Quran and the Imam ..to you your faith, and to us ours.

if you say the quran is complete - than that is the truth for you - tell me when will you follow all the rules outlined in the Quran..or is that a mute point..

for me..the Imam is SUPREME and the Quran in it's current form is incomplete - for me - the farman of the Imam is enough...now you may not believe that - but that is not my concern....

Shams

[ShamsB]

For ZZNOOR

I wasn't able to find the admin quote you referenced on Page 2.

But I think you missed kmaherali's post on Page 1.

"The following is the Firman fo Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah suggesting that the Quran was tampered with.

"Those who show partiality and try to favour somebody, then they will become ignorant like those who having brought about alterations in the Quran created discord in religion after the demise of Prophet Muhamad."(Zanzibar, 14 September 1905)"


Shams

[ShamsB]

When the leaders of our concil asked Mowlana Hazar Imam if the Quran was tampered with or if anything was missing he said that the Quran which we are reading today, is the same Quran which was read/composed during the time of Phrophet Muhammad. Ofcourse no one will no the TRUE Quran as that is with Hazar Imam. If you didnt already know the incident which happened during the time of Mowlana Ali. After the passing away of the phrophet, all of the people who were righting down the Quran came together and were wanting to put it all together. When Mowlana Ali came Omar who was the 2nd Kalif of Islam told Ali he said go away from here we do not need you here. Mowlana Ali replied he said okay but remember this you will not recive this interpretation of the Quran until the day of Judgement. So as you can see the TRUE Quran is with Hazar Imam and will continue to be with him until the day of Judgement

Amin

Can you provide a definitive reference to this?

What meeting? any memos?

This statement is in direct contradiction to a number of farmans of the Imam.
Also the historical facts that you state - are incorrect. The Quran was compiled during the time of Uthman - not Umar.

Shams

[ShamsB]

When the leaders of our concil asked Mowlana Hazar Imam if the Quran was tampered with or if anything was missing he said that the Quran which we are reading today, is the same Quran which was read/composed during the time of Phrophet Muhammad. Ofcourse no one will no the TRUE Quran as that is with Hazar Imam. If you didnt already know the incident which happened during the time of Mowlana Ali. After the passing away of the phrophet, all of the people who were righting down the Quran came together and were wanting to put it all together. When Mowlana Ali came Omar who was the 2nd Kalif of Islam told Ali he said go away from here we do not need you here. Mowlana Ali replied he said okay but remember this you will not recive this interpretation of the Quran until the day of Judgement. So as you can see the TRUE Quran is with Hazar Imam and will continue to be with him until the day of Judgement

Amin

Can you provide a definitive reference to this?

What meeting? any memos?

This statement is in direct contradiction to a number of farmans of the Imam.
Also the historical facts that you state - are incorrect. The Quran was compiled during the time of Uthman - not Umar.

Shams

ZZNOOR - I hope I am making my point - I have published Farmans - this is hearsay.

Any academic discussion doesn't stand on hearsay - but rather proven events.

Shams

[shiraz.virani]

a_27826 said :

so, lets lets get back to agakhani's problem.

he is interested to know about a married man wants his sperms to be placed inside another's woman body, who is also willing but is not his wife......

is it ok or not according to the Quran.....

and he wants quote(s) of ayat numbers to justify the answer.

I already did !!!....There are various forms of surrogacy that I tried to explain in my previous posts...Apart from that I also mentioned adoption which I did not clarify in my earlier posts....I also showed him a surah regarding muta marriage....In today's era a person need not have to get into marital relationship and have intercourse to make babies.

Today muta marriage is given a whole new look [Just like iPhone 5 & 5S ]....Both phone looks the same, works the same....the only difference are few features...Similarly muta in the past and short term contract today is the same with the only difference i.e a person need not have to have sexual intercourse to make babies]

It may or may not be prohibited in sunnism ....but It definitely is not haram in shia islam ...Even the grand Aayatullah Khomeini allowed surrogacy provided the resulting child must be recognized as the child of the donor father.

This works well if an infertile couple contributes the egg and sperm, and then has it grown inside a third party surrogate mother. But it would not work well if the wife of the infertile couple wishes to carry the child using the sperm of a third party donor. Her husband would be considered only an adoptive father. The third party donor would be considered the real father from whom the child may claim inheritance.

Now agakhani bhai is free to believe anything he wants too...but my only question to him is that when he is ready to approve few bad social habits and call it modernity[not approved in quran]....Why cant he approve of life that brings happiness in the family ??

When it comes to science Im always reminded of what MHI said in one of his interview on 12th march 1983 :

How would you comment on the notion popularised by Western critics that scientific and technological progress is incompatible with the practice of Islam?

To which MHI replied :


I think that’s one of the most offensive things that can be said about Islam and I take issue with it in every way. In the first place, to say that science in the modern age is incompatible is the same as saying that Islam is the faith of the past and that is totally unacceptable. In the second place. Islam’s message contains a central theme which is the total power of Allah and therefore my conviction is that the discoveries which the human mind can make are really simply a minute perception of Allah’s creation and I know no scientist in any domain who has been able to answer the ultimate question. So, from my point of view, Islam is a faith which cannot be relegated to the past. The message of Islam with regard to Allah's power and His creation is essential to our faith. We have every day evidence of that and we must be thankful.


Neither Islam nor its holy book is time bound

[nuseri]

To 2782: Ya Ali Madad:

It was a fair reply.

for "WHOM"?
Mary Had no choice.It was mandated by GOD.The birth of Jesus Christ was a blessing to the humanity.So In my opinion Blessed Mary conceived for
'Humanity'.I personally acknowledge Jesus Christ as spiritual Child of Allah and not a biological child.

[nuseri]

To zznoor:

[Edited/removed by Admin]

Just one personal question.
Regardless of your liking or disliking/hating Ismailism.
Does Ismailism fascinates you?

[Admin]

To Nuseri and zznoor

This Forum is going to stay on the web for eternity. This means zznoor and yourself Nuseri and myself would be non-existent at that time and this personals discussions and questions will become irrelevant so please refrain from this kind of material.

What we want to achieve in this Forum is open the eyes of the future generations on debates of interest to them and arguments that are used rationally in the 21st Century to convince, not personal attacks.

To all those posting, please think of the relevance of your post in 100 years. Press the "submit" button only once you are satisfied that your post replies on the thread of the Forum for generations to come.

[nuseri]

To Admin:
Ya Ali Madad.
Sorry.Sirji Samaj Gayee.
Aap bhi tho Kayanat ke kone me poch kar,sawaal puch raho ho.
Please reinstate the first part(nothing adverse there).as it is a part of much needed major challenge to Shariatis.

[agakhani]

I already did !!!....There are various forms of surrogacy that I tried to explain in my previous posts.

And off course I already wrote that your Ayas are not right ayas which directly touch the surrogate mother question your quoted ayas are telling something different and which is not in practice now a days. let me ask you and sister ZZnoor!!
Why don't you accept that Quran is outdated and it has no answer of modern day questions!! I heard an idiom in Urdu 'MIYA BHAI GIR GAYE LEKIN UNKI TANGDI UNCHI" Please be decent and polite person not only you but other participant must have to become decent and needs to accept their mistakes. I personally follow this practice , and I do not hesitate to thanks if some one find out my mistakes I appreciate him to bring my mistake in my attention look my older post but.. AS I WROTE EARLIER THAT I HAVE LEARNED A LOT FROM YOU BROTHER SHIRAZ, UNFORTUNATELY majority of other participants doesn't follow this practice even brother Admin too By the way we are come here to learn more not to insult any one or prove our selves as I am the superior than others.
Shiraz,
I should salute and respect you, about your Quranic knowledge, indeed you have vast knowledge in quran but the other hand ( you said many time that you are an Ismaili then ) you have to study ginans and farmans of our Imams as well which I believe will add more knowledge in your vast memory..

R.U. Ready for more Questions to prove Quran is outdated??

[shiraz.virani]

Agakhani bhai said :

And off course I already wrote that your Ayas are not right ayas which directly touch the surrogate mother question your quoted ayas are telling something different and which is not in practice now a days. let me ask you and sister ZZnoor!!

Agakhani bhai, it's just my point of view thats all....Some may or some may not share the same views like mine, its just that I have given you my point of view regarding this issue. Now if you think my answer to your question is satisfying then its fine and even if it dont its still fine.

Also agakhani bhai, the quran that you call outdated is the very same quran from which we ismailis recite our holy dua [same surah and same aayat]...So according to you even our dua is outdated ???

Why don't you accept that Quran is outdated and it has no answer of modern day questions!! I heard an idiom in Urdu 'MIYA BHAI GIR GAYE LEKIN UNKI TANGDI UNCHI" icon_rolleyes.gif Please be decent and polite person not only you but other participant must have to become decent and needs to accept their mistakes. I personally follow this practice , and I do not hesitate to thanks if some one find out my mistakes I appreciate him to bring my mistake in my attention look my older post but..

If you read what MHI said in his interview @ above... " All the discoveries that human mind makes is not actually his[human] creation but its allah's[swt] creation."

Even in quran...allah[swt] says nothing happens without his permission so why can't you accept the fact that science and islam walk hand in hand ???

AS I WROTE EARLIER THAT I HAVE LEARNED A LOT FROM YOU BROTHER SHIRAZ, UNFORTUNATELY majority of other participants doesn't follow this practice even brother Admin too By the way we are come here to learn more not to insult any one or prove our selves as I am the superior than others.

And I thank you from the bottom of my heart and as you know even I read all your posts [specially the one in ginan section] with great interest....you have vast knowledge about our ginans and pir's which is unique and I salute you for your contribution on this forum.

Shiraz,
I should salute and respect you, about your Quranic knowledge, indeed you have vast knowledge in quran but the other hand ( you said many time that you are an Ismaili then ) you have to study ginans and farmans of our Imams as well which I believe will add more knowledge in your vast memory..

Agakhani bhai, Im just a student like everybody else on here...I always try to learn and understand different interpretations, about different faith/sects ....thats all !!!

R.U. Ready for more Questions to prove Quran is outdated??

Agakhani bhai you have already asked these questions in the past...questions like surrogacy, sex change, animals with male and female organs, homosexuals etc etc....And I think all your questions have been answered in the past so I dunno why you wanna ask the same question again and again ???

Just think about it agakhani bhai....On one hand you say quran is outdated and on the other hand you read quran...So basically you're discouraging people to read quran but ironically you're reading it with great interest.....Is it justified ??

[agakhani]

Just think about it agakhani bhai....On one hand you say quran is outdated and on the other hand you read quran...So basically you're discouraging people to read quran but ironically you're reading it with great interest.....Is it justified ??

Astgafirullah I never discouraged any one not to read Noble Quran I personally read it believe it or not I have just finished Quran last week, I, don't know how many time I read Quran in past , I lost count about that and I will start to read it again and again It is a different story that my opinion is different then other readers , my interpretation is different than other readers, please remember this Quran was revealed keeping in mind the time of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) which was more than 1400 hundred year ago, if any one think about that time and think about current modern time there has been many many new discoveries founded which seems impossible 1400 years ago and god knows how many other discoveries will revealed in near future so, basically I think Quran does not have enough guidance on the new discoveries and new questions which are arising now a days, if some one not agree with me and many other scholars then it is fine with me.
let make it shore, I didn't had any intention nor I have any intention to encourage readers not to read Quran after all; Quran is our holy book I think this will clear my point.

[agakhani]

Agakhani bhai you have already asked these questions in the past...questions like surrogacy, sex change, animals with male and female organs, homosexuals etc etc....And I think all your questions have been answered in the past so I dunno why you wanna ask the same question again and again ???

Those questions were just sample only and specially related on science but now I have many more questions which will prove not only Quran is outdated but also prove Quran is contradictory too!!!!!?????, for a quick example "The Qur’an says in two verses, (22:47 and 32:5), that the measure of one day in the sight of Allah is equal to 1,000 years of our reckoning. In another verse (70:4) it says that the measure of one day in the sight of Allah is equal to 50,000 years of our reckoning":lol: i.e in these ayas Allah barhaqtala say two different stories on one subject.Did this mistake or Allahtala? or it is typing mistake or what??????
Admin,
Can we open new thread? right now forget about Quran is complete or not because that question has been not solves in 1400 years and I do not think it will solve in near future so let change and focus on new topic which also related to Quran but I think we should open new thread for this new and interesting topics which has been not touched in this forum before DOES "QURAN" IS OUTDATED, AND CONTRADICTORY?

[nuseri]

If it is observed that Quran is not complete,then how can anyone complete or close this topic.
Water has been around earth 200 million years ago,But the TRUE composition and properties of water H20,was discovered just 100 years back,In the same way the word 'Allah' is there over 1400 years,but it composition and truth may be has come now.
Similarly the truth of Quran will evolve in coming times.

To Admin: Ya Ali Madad
Can please put the verses in Gujarati as actually said by Pirs.
Please also put 2 verses before n after those two verses you have mentioned in regard to your reply on 'Surrogacy".Please note translation is not required.

[agakhani]

1.

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Like I said in a previous post - even if the Prophet were to apparate infront of you and proclaim the Quran incomplete in it's current form - you'd doubt him - because I don't think you are here in a constructive manner - but rather a destructive fashion and it bothers you to no avail that we are strong in our conviction in our faith. 

2,

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I have observed that in your case - it is only your interpretation that always seems valid to you and everyone else is wrong. You are unwilling and unyielding to any other source of knowledge. 

3,

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I don't think anything is going to change your mind - you've adopted the "sunni" thought - and not that there is anything wrong with that - i've quoted the Quran to you before - in regards to your faith being yours and mine being mine - yet you seem not to get that and are intent on trying to prove this faith and the imam wrong. 

To Shams Bavani:-
Sorry for late comments but...........!
Wah Bhai wah!!! Aapne to Sister ZZnoor ki bolti hi bandh kardi, ab ye vaapas nahi aayegi.
Is pe ek aour muhavara yaad aya:

Jiddi inshan ko agar Allah bhi unke saamne aakar bataye ke tum gaalat ho, phir bhi voh Allah ki baat bhi nahi manenge.

In my opinion she doesn't have enough knowledge in religious field to debate with others,and she doesn't need to come this forum,I don't know why she is participating in ismaili forum when she needs to go in any Sunny forum cuz I think she was first an Ismaili and after she converted in Sunnis tariqa.
whatever religious she belongs to it doesn't matter Aapne to uski khatia hi khadi kar di that is for sure, wah bhai wah.
"Aap der se bole magar durast bole"
I don't have any thing against sister ZZnoor and or any other readers in this forum but when I read above green coded comments from my freind Shams I can not stop my self to give him applaud, wah bhai wah.

[a_27826]

To 2782: Ya Ali Madad:

It was a fair reply.

for "WHOM"?
Mary Had no choice.It was mandated by GOD.The birth of Jesus Christ was a blessing to the humanity.So In my opinion Blessed Mary conceived for
'Humanity'.I personally acknowledge Jesus Christ as spiritual Child of Allah and not a biological child.

Nada.

Mary had choice and she choose it.

She wanted to stay pure by not any man “touching” her, and she did so.

God wanted her to conceive Jesus, and He did so without any man “touching” her (that is without interfering in her choice)

We shouldn't blame any consequences of our choices to God.

[agakhani]

Actually there were many other wellknown peoples had miraculous birth but some how everybody just mentions only Jesus Christ, indeed he had miraculous birth but we should not forget others too:

Let see what Quran says about Hazarat Adam:-

The Quran mentions of another miraculous birth; that of Adam [as] who was created without a mother and a father:

"{Indeed the likeness of ‘Eesaa (Jesus) before Allaah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" – and he was. The truth from your Lord, so be not of those who doubt.} [Aal ‘Imraan": 59-60]


Let see what Maha Bharat the great scripture say about Karna's Birth :



When Kunti called Sun god with a mantra to test the validity of the mantra, which was provided to her by a sage who was happy with her service towards her when the sage came to her palace (after all the women empowerment and liberation are key factors here) she got scared and wanted the Sun God to go away, but he pleaded his helplessness against the power of mantra. (she was one with captivating spell)

Surya dev (or Sun God) however assured Kunti that even after being blessed with a son, she would still remain a virgin and would not have to suffer any opprobrium. And so Karna was born with kavach and kundal (armor which would make him invincible). Kunti was nevertheless afraid of social stigma and therefore she abandoned the child. She put Karna in a basket and placed the same in the Ganges river, the basket was seen by Adhirath, a charioteer, who had no issues. He picked up the baby and brought him up. That is why Karna is also sometimes referred to as Sarathiputra. Thereby karna became the illegitimate eldest son of Kunti. (the irony of the situation is that there are many karnas born even today)

3, Many people believes that Lord Krishna also born by virgin Devki

4, For interesting people following list will be help full and that will assure them not only Jesus born by virgin mother but there were many before and after his deathof Jesus.

Alcmene, mother of Hercules who gave birth on December 25th
Alitta, Babylonian Madonna and Child
Anat, Syrian wife of "the earlier Supreme God El," called "Virgin Goddess"
Cavillaca, Peruvian huaca (divine spirit) impregnated by the "son of the sun god" through eating his semen in the shape of a fruit
Chimalman, mother of Kukulcan
Chinese mother of Foe (Buddha)
Coatlicue, mother of the Mexican god Huitzilopochtli
Cybele, "Queen of Heaven and Mother of God"
Danae, mother of Perseus
Demeter/Ceres, "Holy Virgin" mother of Persephone/Kore and Dionysus
Devaki, mother of Krishna
Frigga, mother of the Scandinavian god Balder
Hera, mother of Zeus's children
Hertha, Teutonic goddess
Isis, who gave birth to Horus on December 25th
Juno, mother of Mars/Ares, called "Matrona" and "Virginalis," the Mother and Virgin
Mandana, mother of Cyrus/Koresh
Maya, mother of Buddha
Mother of Lao-kiun, "Chinese philosopher and teacher, born in 604 B.C."
Mother of the Indian solar god Rudra
Nana, mother of Attis
Neith, mother of Osiris, who was "worshipped as the Holy Virgin, the Great Mother, yet an Immaculate Virgin."
Nutria, mother of an Etruscan Son of God
Ostara, the German goddess
Rohini, mother of Indian "son of God"
Semele, mother of Dionysus/Bacchus, who was born on December 25th
Shin-Moo, Chinese Holy Mother
Siamese mother of Somonocodom (Buddha)
Sochiquetzal, mother of Quetzalcoatl
Vari, Polynesian "First Mother," who created her children "by plucking pieces out of her sides."
Venus, the "Virgo Coelestis" depicted as carrying a child

[a_27826]

I have many more questions which will prove not only Quran is outdated but also prove Quran is contradictory too!!!!!?????, for a quick example "The Qur’an says in two verses, (22:47 and 32:5), that the measure of one day in the sight of Allah is equal to 1,000 years of our reckoning. In another verse (70:4) it says that the measure of one day in the sight of Allah is equal to 50,000 years of our reckoning":lol: [/b] i.e in these ayas Allah barhaqtala say two different stories on one subject.Did this mistake or Allahtala? or it is typing mistake or what??????

Don't we use the word "day" in contradicting ways ?

Do we restrict day to 24 hours only ?

1. I sleep during the day and stay up all night.
2. Today is a brand new day.
3. The day you were born was the happiest day of my life.
4. Back in the day, it used to be safe to walk the park at night.
5. Last week, we worked a 10 hour day shift.
6. Today, I had a long and weary day.
7. One day, i may be able to visit Las Vegas.
8. Children of this day and age, have little respect for their parents.

Quran was revealed in human language so that we can understand.

[a_27826]

in these ayas Allah barhaqtala say two different stories on one subject.Did this mistake or Allahtala? or it is typing mistake or what??????

I see three different subjects in these three verses with one message that the time in the spiritual world is infinite while in the earthly world is finite.


022:047 And they demand of thee to hasten the chastisement! God will not fail His promise; and surely a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of your counting.

This might mean that the unbelievers will find a “day” in hell like a “thousand years”.



032:005 He directs the affair from heaven to earth, then it goes up to Him in one day, whose measure is a thousand years of your counting.

This might mean God’s plan is so huge that humans might consider as a thousand years implementing but for Him, it’s just like a “day”



070:004 To Him the angels and the Spirit mount up, in a day whereof the measure is fifty thousand years.

This might mean that time period to reach God may seem “fifty thousand” to humans but for the Angles and the Spirit to reach God takes only a “day”


Spiritual matters are difficult to express in human language.

[nuseri]

To Agakhani:
Ya Ali Madad My compliments on your reading of Quran and even lately on maybe political science.
Please note that ayats no is refferred to normal beings on earth as 'your'
that is 22:47 n ayat 32:05 they are the same.
it says that any grave sin or error by a person or community in understanding the prophet of their time,'HE' just hasten their ultimate punishment just one day of their belief but 1000 years n more.
HE has mentioned many many how annihilated the whole humanity sparing a few of prophet family ,some 'the family and one old lady is mentioned.
He values maybe few handful believers than the population of that time and each cycle of many many thousand years.

The Ayat 70:4 says
"The Angel and The Spirit ascend
unto him in a Day.
the measure wherof is (as) fifty thousand years.
the word 'wherof' clearly he mean differentiating form other Ayats

it is totally diferrent Ayat unrelated to earlier 2 Ayats meant for humanbeings.

this mention and address them,their grace period could be as high as 50000 years to Ali +Lah(Allah) to consider any wrath.
He has placed the Angels 50 time more superior n pious over normai being.
ALLAH TALLA SAHI KAHA HAI,AAPNE DIMAG ME DAHI KACHUMBER JYAADA HO GAYA HAI.
The compareble value of a Momins n souls has also been expreesed clearly by Imam SMS. there are even upto 4 different figures compared a one human soul.they do no contradict at all,we have seen for whom he meant for.
As read it out to me ( I am depending on my memory as heard n not any books and my way of understanding).
He has said about a momin believer of HIM as Imam as one believer equal to 1000 non believers.
In another Farman ,He sad that one 'Haqiqati' momin equals to 10000 persons.
As also said by an Al waez,that in a Memani by a few in Calcutta to Imam SMS,they may be great Khidmatgars or even Marfati Momin of His
said to them they are each of them equal to 1 lac persons.
In ginan of Sayeeda Imam Begum,she n maybe other Entity mentioned somewhere the value of soul of Pir Sadarddin n Pir Hasan Kabiridin.
All above were normal looking human being n last ones may Angelic souls as Human.
I took me over a week n may be some credit of my past lives to just to understand ,I feel may be I am correct or not. tried it to my best of my faith n ability.
There is NO anomaly in first two Ayats n in compare to 3 Ayat 70:4.

I will end with :
AHMED ALI ALI BOLIYA,PECHE HONI HOI SO HOI REE.

[a_27826]

He has placed the Angels 50 time more superior n pious over normai being.

That’s what Angles and Iblis thought so when God decided to place a vicegerent on Earth.

002:030-034 And when your Lord said to the angels, 'I am setting in the earth a viceroy.' They said, 'What, will You set therein one who will do corruption there, and shed blood, while We proclaim Your praise and call You Holy?' He said, 'Assuredly I know that you know not.'

And He taught Adam the names, all of them; then He presented them unto the angels and said, 'Now tell Me the names of these, if you speak truly.'

They said, 'Glory be to You! We know not save what You hast taught us. Surely You are the All-knowing, the All-wise.'

He said, 'Adam, tell them their names.' And when he had told them their names He said, 'Did I not tell you I know the unseen things of the heavens and earth? And I know what things you reveal, and what you were hiding.'

And when We said to the angels, 'Bow yourselves to Adam'; so they bowed themselves, save Iblis; he refused, and waxed proud, and so he became one of the unbelievers.

[nuseri]

All blessed souls on this earth are Angelic souls n I have mentioned that word later on is the same postings.

Human being achieving a status are as good or greater than angels.
as it is for day of reckoning of one day of God ,They are in grace period of 50000 years against a human being at 1000 years.

If you deeply understand some farmans of Imam SMS,he has indicated Haqiqti momins as Firastas/Angels.

You try to understand the essence rather than written words.

Please tell what word is used arabic for the word essence and for spirit in Quran?

[zznoor]

ShansB
As I've stated before - quoting the Quran and the Imam ..to you your faith, and to us ours.

to you your faith, and to us ours

This is from Sura Al Kafirun
It is addressed to Kafirs (non believers in Islam)
In this sura Allah is commanding Prophet to say to Kafirs (non believers in Islam) that, for you is your religion whatever it may be. and for us us (Prophet and his Muslim followers) is our religion that is Islam.

A Muslim cannot defend his varient practice of Islam by quoting this Ays.

and as per Allah's command in Quran 2:208 he must "enter Islam completely"
That is observe all five fundamental "Buniyad" of ISLAM
That is
Shahada, Salat, Swam, Zakat and Hujj.

This is accepted by all Muslim factions except some on this Board.

Meri Bolti nahi bandh Hui but it is fruitless to go on arguing.

Those who say Quran was Altered
Present altered Sura and Ayas.
Those who say Quran is missing some Suras, Ayas etc.
Present Additional Suras and/or Ayas.

Otherwise stop carping like dowters and enimies of Islam.

[a_27826]

Please tell what word is used arabic for the word essence and for spirit in Quran?

essence (mother) = ommu

003:007, 013:039, 043:004



Spirit = rooh

002:087, 002:253, 004:171, 005:110, 015:029

[agakhani]

Quran was revealed in human language so that we can understand.

Now brother will you please tell me the numbers (1000 years and 50.000 years) used in above two ayas are in a human language? or an alien language? or angels language? or Allah's own contradictory language? Brother, if you ask any first grader about these twp ayas, he/she can easily tell you that yes, off course it is Allah's contradictory info.

Ya Ali Madad My compliments on your reading of Quran and even lately on maybe political science.

Boss, I started to read Quran many years ago along with other religious holy books too so, Quran and Hadiths and ayas are not new for me, it is a different story that I, do not quote many Quranic ayas I rather prefer to quote Ginanic verses instead cuz I don't see any big difference between these too, for me ginans are more reliable and more informative in comparison with Quran, Bible, Gita, Purans and other religious books because ginans are in my own language which I understand better and as per SMS (s.a) one farmans ginans are essence of Quran and tafseer of Quran.

Meri Bolti nahi bandh Hui but it is fruitless to go on arguing.

Good to know! Sister that you are still participate in this forum, and I don't have any objection for it, this forum is for every one and I personally goes in many other religious forum like Sunni, Shia, Christian, Hinduism, Buddhism and I post my comments over there with different names but sister my thinking force me to believe that you are once an Ismaili! now please tell us the truth, may be I am wrong and I will be happy if you say no I was never Ismaili in my life but you have to give us (Quran aour Allah ke naam se) correct answer. After all I don't have ability like Nuseri has to go in past lives and take decision on Quranic ayas and judge for any one!!!

[ShamsB]

ShansB
As I've stated before - quoting the Quran and the Imam ..to you your faith, and to us ours.

to you your faith, and to us ours

This is from Sura Al Kafirun
It is addressed to Kafirs (non believers in Islam)
In this sura Allah is commanding Prophet to say to Kafirs (non believers in Islam) that, for you is your religion whatever it may be. and for us us (Prophet and his Muslim followers) is our religion that is Islam.

A Muslim cannot defend his varient practice of Islam by quoting this Ays.

and as per Allah's command in Quran 2:208 he must "enter Islam completely"
That is observe all five fundamental "Buniyad" of ISLAM
That is
Shahada, Salat, Swam, Zakat and Hujj.

This is accepted by all Muslim factions except some on this Board.

Meri Bolti nahi bandh Hui but it is fruitless to go on arguing.

Those who say Quran was Altered
Present altered Sura and Ayas.
Those who say Quran is missing some Suras, Ayas etc.
Present Additional Suras and/or Ayas.

Otherwise stop carping like dowters and enimies of Islam.

Once again...you don't want to accept someone else's interpretation of an ayat of the quran.

Somehow I think you seem to think that you have become Allah and the Prophet and are now responsible for telling everyone else what the intent and interpretation should be.

I didn't quote the whole surah. I am just taking one Ayat to prove my point - you accept the Quran as complete - all the more power to you - and now I am using that as a reference and guidance to tell you - that you are welcome to yours - let us be welcome to ours.

You're right - one can't argue with a fool - people might not know the difference.

So how about we do this - you go and practice your five pillars - and we will go practice our seven pillars.
You can hold the Quran as complete and rely upon it and we will follow the Imam-e-Zamaan - or as your Quran states..the Imam-e-Mubeen - who has been vested with the authority of EVERYTHING...last I checked - EVERYTHING didn't preclude the Quran.

btw - looking at your arguement - you're making ours for us - if the verses in the Quran were specific to a certain group of people in a certain timeperiod - how do they hold true for us today?

Once again all upto interpretation.

And - if you are so assured that the quran is infallible - when are you going to start your "killing of the unbelievers"?
Isn't that a verse in the Quran as well?

Get with the program. I, for one, will follow the Farmans of the Imam - and as I've stated before - and quoted - yet you refuse to acknowledge - that the Quran has been tampered with. And because you are a nonbeliever in the Imam - there is plenty of historical evidence - which you in your conviction fail to admit and keep overlooking - but that is acceptable to you since that is your viewpoint and everyone else except you are wrong in your viewpoint.

once again - i quote the Quran

To you is your faith - to me is mine.

and if it makes it easier and gives more power to you - then i am a kafiroon and am happy to be so...

When you're savoring your 72 Houries (FYI what exactly is a Hourie? - Quran doesn't mention any sex...but Arab myth has fashioned female forms for them?) and your Milk and Dates and Honey..i'll be enjoying my mishkaki and nyama choma...on my side of Hell - happy to have stood firm in my conviction.

Do not worry - I will vouch for you to say you did your utmost to try to brainwash me and fight your insecurities within.

Suppose the tables are turned - and I turn out to be right? then what?

Shams

[ShamsB]

ShansB
As I've stated before - quoting the Quran and the Imam ..to you your faith, and to us ours.

to you your faith, and to us ours

This is from Sura Al Kafirun
It is addressed to Kafirs (non believers in Islam)
In this sura Allah is commanding Prophet to say to Kafirs (non believers in Islam) that, for you is your religion whatever it may be. and for us us (Prophet and his Muslim followers) is our religion that is Islam.

A Muslim cannot defend his varient practice of Islam by quoting this Ays.

and as per Allah's command in Quran 2:208 he must "enter Islam completely"
That is observe all five fundamental "Buniyad" of ISLAM
That is
Shahada, Salat, Swam, Zakat and Hujj.

This is accepted by all Muslim factions except some on this Board.

Meri Bolti nahi bandh Hui but it is fruitless to go on arguing.

Those who say Quran was Altered
Present altered Sura and Ayas.
Those who say Quran is missing some Suras, Ayas etc.
Present Additional Suras and/or Ayas.

Otherwise stop carping like dowters and enimies of Islam.

Once again...you don't want to accept someone else's interpretation of an ayat of the quran.

Somehow I think you seem to think that you have become Allah and the Prophet and are now responsible for telling everyone else what the intent and interpretation should be.

I didn't quote the whole surah. I am just taking one Ayat to prove my point - you accept the Quran as complete - all the more power to you - and now I am using that as a reference and guidance to tell you - that you are welcome to yours - let us be welcome to ours.

You're right - one can't argue with a fool - people might not know the difference.

So how about we do this - you go and practice your five pillars - and we will go practice our seven pillars.
You can hold the Quran as complete and rely upon it and we will follow the Imam-e-Zamaan - or as your Quran states..the Imam-e-Mubeen - who has been vested with the authority of EVERYTHING...last I checked - EVERYTHING didn't preclude the Quran.

btw - looking at your arguement - you're making ours for us - if the verses in the Quran were specific to a certain group of people in a certain timeperiod - how do they hold true for us today?

Once again all upto interpretation.

And - if you are so assured that the quran is infallible - when are you going to start your "killing of the unbelievers"?
Isn't that a verse in the Quran as well?

Get with the program. I, for one, will follow the Farmans of the Imam - and as I've stated before - and quoted - yet you refuse to acknowledge - that the Quran has been tampered with. And because you are a nonbeliever in the Imam - there is plenty of historical evidence - which you in your conviction fail to admit and keep overlooking - but that is acceptable to you since that is your viewpoint and everyone else except you are wrong in your viewpoint.

once again - i quote the Quran

To you is your faith - to me is mine.

and if it makes it easier and gives more power to you - then i am a kafiroon and am happy to be so...

When you're savoring your 72 Houries (FYI what exactly is a Hourie? - Quran doesn't mention any sex...but Arab myth has fashioned female forms for them?) and your Milk and Dates and Honey..i'll be enjoying my mishkaki and nyama choma...on my side of Hell - happy to have stood firm in my conviction.

Do not worry - I will vouch for you to say you did your utmost to try to brainwash me and fight your insecurities within.

Suppose the tables are turned - and I turn out to be right? then what?

Shams