QUL

[kmaherali]

I think what he mwans is the God

It is typo..

I think what he means is God....

[zznoor]

1. Pir Shihabuddin in Risala wrote, The commander of the faithfuls, Ali says:" I WOULD NEVER WORSHIP GOD IF I HAD NOT SEEN HIM." Question arises 'worship of which God Mowla Ali is talking about?
2. In KIM (Gujrati addition, page # 61) Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said in a Farman, " MOWLA ALI YE FARMAVIOU(N) KE,HU(N) KHUDA NEY JOU(N) NAHI TOU IBADAT PUNN KARU(N) NAHI", Mowla Ali said, I shall not worship God, until I see Him not.
There is resemblance in above both Farmans, one by Imam and other by Pir.

Actually there is Hadith of Prophet ,
Part of it goes like this

is established in the hadîth that Gabriel asked the Prophet (peace be upon him): “Tell me about excellence in faith (ihsân).”

He replied: “It is to worship Allah as though you see Him, and though you do not see Him, you know that He sees you.” [Sahîh al Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim]

The Prophet (peace be upon him) describes excellence in faith (ihsân)by saying: “It is to worship Allah as though you see Him”, meaning that the worshipper engages in his worship with such acute awareness of the fact that he is presenting himself before his Lord that it is as though he sees Him. He will be absolutely sincere in his worship and his heart will be full of humility, awe, and fear. This implies that the worshipper will expend every effort in perfecting his worship.

He further describes ihsân by saying: “…and though you do not see Him, you know that He sees you.”

Some scholars, like Ibn Rajab in his work entitled Jâmi` al-`Ulûm wa al-Hikam, are of the opinion that there are two degrees of ihsân being indicated here, one stronger than the other. The strongest is to worship Allah as if you see him. If you cannot attain that level of sincerity and devotion, then at least when you worship Allah, be cognizant of the fact that He sees you.

Other scholars see only one idea being conveyed. They regard the second statement (know that He sees you) to be the cause of the first (worship Allah as though you see Him). Ibn Rajab mentions this view as well. The idea here is that the way to attain the level of worshipping Allah as though you see him is to cultivate the awareness that Allah sees you.

It is important to note that under no circumstances should this hadîth be understood to mean that Allah can be seen in this world. This is why the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “…as though you see Him”.

[shivaathervedi]

1. Pir Shihabuddin in Risala wrote, The commander of the faithfuls, Ali says:" I WOULD NEVER WORSHIP GOD IF I HAD NOT SEEN HIM." Question arises 'worship of which God Mowla Ali is talking about?
2. In KIM (Gujrati addition, page # 61) Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said in a Farman, " MOWLA ALI YE FARMAVIOU(N) KE,HU(N) KHUDA NEY JOU(N) NAHI TOU IBADAT PUNN KARU(N) NAHI", Mowla Ali said, I shall not worship God, until I see Him not.
There is resemblance in above both Farmans, one by Imam and other by Pir.

I think what he mwans is the God that one realizes through spiritual enlightenment or the third eye. When one develops spiritually one aquires the third eye through which God is seen or experienced.
Pir Sadardeen in the Ginan: Sakhi Mahapad Vaat says:

sakhee kahevaa sareekho nathee ke maaro saamee jee re
eto jovaa sareekho chhe alakh anaamee re.........................12

O beloved ones, my Lord (attained through this experience) does
not bear any telling (as He is undescribable) and He is nameless.
He can only be seen or experienced.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23118

You skipped my question about your extra ordinary quote, Let me repeat it again.You wrote in one of your postings," But times changed and the form of our FAITH also changed, that is THE REASON why we have Hazar Imam to interpret THE FAITH according to times." Now can you elaborate the statements of Imam and Pir in context of your above statement," The time changes, therefore the form of our faith also changes!"

The part of Ginan you quoted of Pir Sadardin has two important words, ALAKH means ' which can not be written ' and ANAAMI means ' nameless '. Obviously you can not write name of nameless. Imam said, you can not comprehend Him who is beyond imagination. Quran says," LUNN TARANI " You can not see me. MSMS said," In this world a person can not get the water of Noor." Then how one can see Him, express Him, describe Him?

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.
My two earlier postings here and 04 on Aliullah in the past has been deleted.
As to zznoor posting.
85% hadith's are fakes. The ummah is devastated by Misreading of holy book and clinging to fake hadith's.
In an analogy
A person who has advance his career and move forward will pass exams from listening to a living professor rather than what could be 85% fake a hear say of professor 1400 years back saying to a person or invisible seen N heard by person much less literate than entity to hear the vowels and write it down then.
ANY ANY ANY hear say statement is not legally valid in court of law.
85% of dead man sayings can be classified as LOONEY BIN
TALES.
regarding Aliuallah.
I have question which is right or wrong or same.
Figures in below orders.
0123456789
Or
1234567890.
Answers needed.no escapism

[Admin]

The proper order is -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ....

Shunya ma thi shabad

which means Imam-Khat-Nirinjan-Essence first (-1), then Shunya-Nothingness (0), then the Shabad-Word (1), everything else which follows is creation

In the beginning, there was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. My personal opinion is that the God referred to is what people call God according to their own intellect, the God that has attributes but in reality God is above attributes. How many level above? This is a matter of personal understanding and beliefs.

[shivaathervedi]

To Admin,
Please unlock all the threads you locked except the duplicate ones.
Le the information, knowledge, ideas, research flow and glow. May be in future some one want to add some valuable information. Blocking the threads or accounts is not healthy. Let the descent arguments and debate flourish.
Thanks.

[Admin]

To Admin,
Please unlock all the threads you locked except the duplicate ones.
Le the information, knowledge, ideas, research flow and glow. May be in future some one want to add some valuable information. Blocking the threads or accounts is not healthy. Let the descent arguments and debate flourish.
Thanks.

Sorry this can not be done. These threads have been polluted so much that it is better that the discussion on those subjects stops there. When people repeat the same again and again in a thread, it is just a waste of time.

Not to add that some people do not understand how a Forum works. Instead of posting items in Ask Admin or such thread they post completely unrelated questions into a thread called Kul.

Some of these threads have 65 pages. First finish re-reeding them (it will take months) and try to understand what others have said. We'll see in few years when there is new blood managing this Forum, if they decide to re-open the closed threads.

[zznoor]

The proper order is -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ....

Shunya ma thi shabad

which means Imam-Khat-Nirinjan-Essence first (-1), then Shunya-Nothingness (0), then the Shabad-Word (1), everything else which follows is creation

In the beginning, there was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. My personal opinion is that the God referred to is what people call God according to their own intellect, the God that has attributes but in reality God is above attributes. How many level above? This is a matter of personal understanding and beliefs.

So this thread was QUL
Why did you answer 0 to ----?, a non QUL post
So you also participated in polluting of thread

[zznoor]

To whom it may concern

So 15% of Hadith are authentic
Hadith I quoted is authentic as per many scholars and Imam misappropriated it to Ali RA.

Shia beliefs are based on interpretation of Ahadith supporting Ali and family and Ahl e Bait. there is no clear command in Quran or Hadith appointing Hz Ali as next leader after Prophet.

Please stop arguing about Islam or Ismailism, admittaly yo do not follow even Ismaili religion.

Peace brother

[Admin]

The proper order is -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ....

.

So this thread was QUL
Why did you answer 0 to ----?, a non QUL post
So you also participated in polluting of thread

If Qul is related to the origin of the command, the Shabd:

Qul is any of the 3 choices -1, 0, 1 according to each person's belief.

This apply of course to people who have some definite beliefs, not to people who are still in search.

Probably Mazhar will say Qul is 1, Nuseiri will say Qul is 0

What about you? In your belief, is Qul above attributes or below, or do you equate Qul to the Attributes? Confused? No problem. In its essence, mysticism is complex.

[nuseri]

To zznoor: Ya Ali Madad.
Try to live in year 2017 and much beyond to come not take refuge in hear, say and saw stories and ruin one's mindset.
I wrote on general hadith.
Let us assume what you posted could be real or erred recording 1400 years back.
My 360 degrees analysis are.
1.what was literacy level then who heard & saw this.?
Entity was unlearned but blessed but not those quacks Around him?
2 did the entity spoke to angle who was invisible or came as person( my take is salman faras).
3.it was Angel who prayed to God since creation and showed physical act of prayers to entity ,then how could an entity give sermon to an angel who was nocth above till the entity be came part of Able bayt.
4.sermon would look may be true if said to follower.
My question if God can make his prophets and angels appear, can he also Appear as a human?
Now to the wordings.
A illtetate person to write something or miss word,vowels,full stops can make the message funny,stupid and indifferent.
1.see him and do not see him said immd sounds a saying of unsound mind.
2.it could have deeper sense. (I will give example ).
To visualize him as human as hinted in holy book.
3.not to expect his physical present as precondition in doing so and make an idol out of it.
If that lines are to believed and hold entity as truthful.
Pray as if to see him is a daily part and parcel of Ismaili bandagi practice to look forward to his baatin Didar with NO demand of his physical presence and zahir Didar.
This reflect the higher level of the saying by understanding it
By not contradicting it or squaring of plus and minus to zero.
4.it reflects the second wording what to expect in reality.
5.No shariati prays to see God and they say it is formless ( all gone in waste
We desire to pray with his image of picture of ALI+lah= Allah 24x7 during Dua.
5.understanding true hadith's by quacks on face and words value can be a disaster by it self.
The whole of UMMAH is now a toxic cocktail of MI's reading of holy book and clinging to 85 % fake hadith's.
Why wreck our brain with limited knowledge of hear say of 1400 years back ,when we are living today for tomorrow.
A simple can a dead person hold somebody's hand or a living person.
I feel zznnor is superior being than the crawling living creature in this Forum.
I have stood by truth by not disregarding this hadith.I may be wrong.

[shivaathervedi]

Is Risala e Dar Haqiqat e Din written by Pir Shihabuddin (Kalaam e Pir) be considered same as Ginans written by Pir Sadardin and Pir Hasan Kabiruddin?

[shivaathervedi]

The proper order is -1, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ....

.

So this thread was QUL
Why did you answer 0 to ----?, a non QUL post
So you also participated in polluting of thread

If Qul is related to the origin of the command, the Shabd:

Qul is any of the 3 choices -1, 0, 1 according to each person's belief.

This apply of course to people who have some definite beliefs, not to people who are still in search.

Probably Mazhar will say Qul is 1, Nuseiri will say Qul is 0

What about you? In your belief, is Qul above attributes or below, or do you equate Qul to the Attributes? Confused? No problem. In its essence, mysticism is complex.

Is -1=0 and 0=1?
-1= Darkness
0= nothingness
1= Shadow came out of darkness.
Is it a magical trick! like rabbit came out of hat or chicken came out of handkerchief.

[Admin]

Is it a magical trick! like rabbit came out of hat or chicken came out of handkerchief.

Actually you may be joking or you may be sarcastic but you are not far from the reality. The Word does appear our of nowhere, and there is the concept of creation ex-nihilo. You may want to compare this with your magical trick. After all, God is the greatest magician

[shivaathervedi]

Is it a magical trick! like rabbit came out of hat or chicken came out of handkerchief.

Actually you may be joking or you may be sarcastic but you are not far from the reality. The Word does appear our of nowhere, and there is the concept of creation ex-nihilo. You may want to compare this with your magical trick. After all, God is the greatest magician

FALSAFI KO BAHAS MEY KHUDA MILTA NAHI(N)
DORR KO SULJHA RAHA HAI PER SIRA MILTA NAHI(N)

A philosopher can not find God by just debating. He is trying to unfold the mingled threads but unable to find the end of thread.

God is beyond counting. He is neither -1,0,1 or +1. Mostly sufis do not use rosary/ tasbih to remember God. They maintain if we count 7,11,14, 33,99 or 101 means we are limiting God. Where as God is beyond imagination.

[shivaathervedi]

Is Risala e Dar Haqiqat e Din written by Pir Shihabuddin (Kalaam e Pir) be considered same as Ginans written by Pir Sadardin and Pir Hasan Kabiruddin?

Still I am waiting for my above question.
Admin shed some light on my question. Where are star contributors of this forum. Wake up, please.

[kmaherali]

Is Risala e Dar Haqiqat e Din written by Pir Shihabuddin (Kalaam e Pir) be considered same as Ginans written by Pir Sadardin and Pir Hasan Kabiruddin?

Still I am waiting for my above question.
Admin shed some light on my question. Where are star contributors of this forum. Wake up, please.

In the beginning of the Risala, Pir Shahbudin states:

In the name of God, the merciful, the Compassionate!

Says the humble slave of Hadrati Shahinshahi Agha Ali Shah, ---may my spirit be sacrificed for him!-Shihabu'd-din al-Husayni: some brethren in religion, whose desire I regard myself obliged to fulfill, have asked me to write, in the form of a concise book, the principles which should guide them in their lives, showing them the right way of moving amongst their brethren in this world, that they may know, and, -if God pleases,-comply with all counsels, thus obtaining peace of mind. [2] With the help of God I was enabled to comply with their request.

From the above statement it is quite clear that the Risala is meant for guidance to his followers and hence it can be considered as Ginan/Farman

[ismaili103]

Seems like Mazhar starts every thread with different name only to prove that
" Ali is not Allah ". But everytime he fails miserably and then starts a new thread with same old broken record.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.
When HZ ALI said that he is the creator.
MHI said he is bearer of NOOR and spiritual father (GOD)
to whole of humanity.( BUCK STOPS THERE).
what they say and not others who say indifferently about them.
one must respect and believe that or leave that faith as simple as that.
Not try to search words of dead B or C category Pir,with low knowledge.
or what a MHI's driver, liftman,barber, or Gardner says about MHI when they hear or observe him.
Quran has clearly stated that only people with deep understanding( rasikunfilm) to know & explain the truth.
At baatin level even an educated PhD,or genius like Einstein
are quacks in front of them.
Here is low level law degree who does not understand the word tawhid .in first posting he understands it as pure ,which itself is FALSE ( Admin should have deleted very first posting of this topic).

[Admin]

This thread is on Qul. Please do not mix subjects. There is a different thread on Ali-Allah. Not here. Keep it specific on QUL!

The subject is very much valid for this website and was not opened yet therefore we encourage people who have diverse ideas to participate in the discussion Those who do not understand the importance of this particular subject can continue discussing other threads in the Forum. No one should feel obligated to participate in ALL the threads unless one has something relevant to say.

[shivaathervedi]

Is Risala e Dar Haqiqat e Din written by Pir Shihabuddin (Kalaam e Pir) be considered same as Ginans written by Pir Sadardin and Pir Hasan Kabiruddin?

Still I am waiting for my above question.
Admin shed some light on my question. Where are star contributors of this forum. Wake up, please.

In the beginning of the Risala, Pir Shahbudin states:

In the name of God, the merciful, the Compassionate!

Says the humble slave of Hadrati Shahinshahi Agha Ali Shah, ---may my spirit be sacrificed for him!-Shihabu'd-din al-Husayni: some brethren in religion, whose desire I regard myself obliged to fulfill, have asked me to write, in the form of a concise book, the principles which should guide them in their lives, showing them the right way of moving amongst their brethren in this world, that they may know, and, -if God pleases,-comply with all counsels, thus obtaining peace of mind. [2] With the help of God I was enabled to comply with their request.

From the above statement it is quite clear that the Risala is meant for guidance to his followers and hence it can be considered as Ginan/Farman

Good, in your opinion Risala e Haqiqat e Din is considered Ginan/Farman and is Guidance as mentioned in above paragraph of Pir Shihabuddin.
Once I asked a question on this forum, for which I never got satisfactory answer. The question was," Can a Pir change the Farman or guidance of his predecessor Pir according to changing times?" In my opinion Pir Shihabuddin changed the course, in Risala he adopted completely Shi'i traditions. He quoted Quran frequently in favor of his statements. He has not quoted even a part of any Ginan, though he was aware of Sutpanthi traditions. No where in Risala Pir has mentioned names of Brahma, Vishnu, Krishan or Rama. There is no trace of Hindu mythology in Risala. He has explained the Ja'fari Madhab and followed Fatimi Tariqa. Hazar Imam has also mentioned that Ismailis follow Ja'fri Madhab.

[shivaathervedi]

Seems like Mazhar starts every thread with different name only to prove that
" Ali is not Allah ". But everytime he fails miserably and then starts a new thread with same old broken record.

Every particle in universe is Mazhar of Allah. Broken record JAANDAR HAI, BUJJ RAHA HAI PER BEY AWAAZ HAI. Your uncle has written, I quote ( read under your post ), " Not try to search words of DEAD B OR C category PIRS WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE." Give some blessings to your uncle N. Do you consider Pir Shihabuddin as your Pir ?

[ismaili103]

Yes I consider Pir Shihabuddin as my Pir.

[kmaherali]

In my opinion Pir Shihabuddin changed the course, in Risala he adopted completely Shi'i traditions. He quoted Quran frequently in favor of his statements. He has not quoted even a part of any Ginan, though he was aware of Sutpanthi traditions. No where in Risala Pir has mentioned names of Brahma, Vishnu, Krishan or Rama. There is no trace of Hindu mythology in Risala. He has explained the Ja'fari Madhab and followed Fatimi Tariqa. Hazar Imam has also mentioned that Ismailis follow Ja'fri Madhab.

Can elaborate in what way did he change the course. Did he compromise on the concept of Ali Allah? Did he compromise on the notion of a living Imam who is the Mazhar? If not how can you say he changed the course?

He says in the Risala:

It is obvious, therefore, that there must be in the world a Supreme Leader (rah-nand) at every time, every moment. Humanity are like children, -they may be clever in their own way, and yet there are many things that are beyond their power of comprehension. Therefore they need a teacher, who may give them necessary knowledge

Which other Shia denomination believes in that?

He was the Pir for only 4 years and therefore it would be difficult to judge someone's ideas based on 4 years and only one book. MSMS who became the Pir after hime clearly sanctioned the Ginans and ideas and personalities of the Hindu tradition. Didn't he say in 1945 that Hindu mythology must be retained?

[shivaathervedi]

In my opinion Pir Shihabuddin changed the course, in Risala he adopted completely Shi'i traditions. He quoted Quran frequently in favor of his statements. He has not quoted even a part of any Ginan, though he was aware of Sutpanthi traditions. No where in Risala Pir has mentioned names of Brahma, Vishnu, Krishan or Rama. There is no trace of Hindu mythology in Risala. He has explained the Ja'fari Madhab and followed Fatimi Tariqa. Hazar Imam has also mentioned that Ismailis follow Ja'fri Madhab.

Can elaborate in what way did he change the course. Did he compromise on the concept of Ali Allah? Did he compromise on the notion of a living Imam who is the Mazhar? If not how can you say he changed the course?

He says in the Risala:

It is obvious, therefore, that there must be in the world a Supreme Leader (rah-nand) at every time, every moment. Humanity are like children, -they may be clever in their own way, and yet there are many things that are beyond their power of comprehension. Therefore they need a teacher, who may give them necessary knowledge

Which other Shia denomination believes in that?

He was the Pir for only 4 years and therefore it would be difficult to judge someone's ideas based on 4 years and only one book. MSMS who became the Pir after hime clearly sanctioned the Ginans and ideas and personalities of the Hindu tradition. Didn't he say in 1945 that Hindu mythology must be retained?

I wander you wrote,"He ( Pir Shihabuddin ) was Pir for 4 years and therefore it would be difficult to judge some one's ideas based on 4 years and only one book." Strange, it sounds like because he was Pir for 4 years and wrote just a one treatise that's why he was an un experienced Pir!! Are you categorizing Pirs, one superior than other, or lacking in experience and not of caliber like Pir Sadardin or Pir Hasan Kabiruddin? Age difference does not reduce the status of Pir. In status, a 3 month Pir is same as 120 years Pir, Am I right?
Pir is always Pir, Pir is born Pir, Pir is from Imam's family or in relationship, these are the statements by you people on this Forum. Pir Shihabuddin was highly educated and knew well Sutpanthi traditions.
MSMS said " During his 70 years of Imamat he changed Farman 70 times. The time changes so the Farmans change, Karim in your wordings which I quoted in this thread you wrote, " But times changed and the form of our faith also changed....".That what MSMS did, in 1945 he sternly declined but in 1950 he changed Aliyullah himself. So it was according to your explanation ' times changes so the the form of faith changes'. ( these are your words )

My answer to your your following question is;
" Did he compromise on the concept of Ali Allah?"
Please read the Paragraphs which I posted on page 3 from Risala,
Imam Hussain's Giryah, He implored to Allah, " I wanted to see thy VISION of thy PERFECTION........"
Pir Shihabuddin wrote, the commander of the faithfuls, ALI said," I would NEVER worship GOD if I had not seen Him."
He starts the first topic by writing," Lord of lords, Mowla Ali 'UPON WHOM BE THE BLESSINGS OF GOD ( which God? ).
For Imam Aga Ali shah, he has used the words " Hazrat i Shahinshah i Aga Ali Shah OR Hazrat i Mowla.

[Admin]

Still I am waiting for my above question....
Admin shed some light on my question. Where are star contributors of this forum. Wake up, please ....... No where in Risala Pir has mentioned names of Brahma, Vishnu, Krishan or Rama. There is no trace of Hindu mythology in Risala.

All this will be clear in your mind by the end of the forthcoming Jubilee when we release hundreds of manuscripts and correspondence from that period. You will be able to read the Asal Dua recited by Pir Shabuddin Shah in presence of Mowlana Aga Ali Shah. Then you can decide what are the names in that Dua and if it fit your knowledge of Ismailism as defined by Pir Shihabuddin Shah.

[kmaherali]

I wander you wrote,"He ( Pir Shihabuddin ) was Pir for 4 years and therefore it would be difficult to judge some one's ideas based on 4 years and only one book." Strange, it sounds like because he was Pir for 4 years and wrote just a one treatise that's why he was an un experienced Pir!! Are you categorizing Pirs, one superior than other, or lacking in experience and not of caliber like Pir Sadardin or Pir Hasan Kabiruddin? Age difference does not reduce the status of Pir. In status, a 3 month Pir is same as 120 years Pir, Am I right?.

You are absolutely right. When a Pir is appointed he is fully qualified for the position. Pir Shahbudin's son was appointed Pir as a baby. But when one makes a statement that he changed course based on one work only without understanding of all his activities including him reciting the Old Dua infront of the Imam, then it is totally inappropriate.

That what MSMS did, in 1945 he sternly declined but in 1950 he changed Aliyullah himself. So it was according to your explanation ' times changes so the the form of faith changes'. ( these are your words ).

What has the change to Aliyullah got to do with Hindu Mythology. Did the Imam indicate that with the change to Aliyullah we will not have Hindu mythology?

My answer to your your following question is;
" Did he compromise on the concept of Ali Allah?"
Please read the Paragraphs which I posted on page 3 from Risala,
Imam Hussain's Giryah, He implored to Allah, " I wanted to see thy VISION of thy PERFECTION........"
Pir Shihabuddin wrote, the commander of the faithfuls, ALI said," I would NEVER worship GOD if I had not seen Him."
He starts the first topic by writing," Lord of lords, Mowla Ali 'UPON WHOM BE THE BLESSINGS OF GOD ( which God? ).
For Imam Aga Ali shah, he has used the words " Hazrat i Shahinshah i Aga Ali Shah OR Hazrat i Mowla.

MHI in his public speeches says Bis millahir Rahmanir Rahim and reads speeches. When he makes Farmans he begins with My Dear Spiritual Children and he does not read.

It is a matter of context and audience. There is no compromise on Ali Allah.

[zznoor]

MHI in his public speeches says Bis millahir Rahmanir Rahim and reads speeches. When he makes Farmans he begins with My Dear Spiritual Children and he does not read.

Precisely post like this is used as proof by non Ismailis as proof that their Imam speaks from both end of mouth. One for general public and another to ismailis in private and perhaps third to higher level Ismailis.

[Admin]

You always address to different audience in different manner. If I call my wife "Darling", I would certainly not call you "Darling". But if you insist, I will tell you I am not speaking from both ends of my mouth but the problem lies with you, because your brain is at the other end of your mouth. Please let me knoew if you need more explanation.

[shivaathervedi]

Still I am waiting for my above question....
Admin shed some light on my question. Where are star contributors of this forum. Wake up, please ....... No where in Risala Pir has mentioned names of Brahma, Vishnu, Krishan or Rama. There is no trace of Hindu mythology in Risala.

All this will be clear in your mind by the end of the forthcoming Jubilee when we release hundreds of manuscripts and correspondence from that period. You will be able to read the Asal Dua recited by Pir Shabuddin Shah in presence of Mowlana Aga Ali Shah. Then you can decide what are the names in that Dua and if it fit your knowledge of Ismailism as defined by Pir Shihabuddin Shah.

I am dying to see the old manuscripts, correspondence, classified Farmans of MSMS and Shah Karim and Asal Du'a. So far I am unable to find copy of Asal Du'a. According to you, in what year Pir Shihabuddin recited Asal Du'a in presence of Imam Ali Shah?