Authority & Nur (light), of Imam in Quran & Farmans

[kmaherali]

Above all Preamble is Farman.

No preamble is part of the constitution, it is not a Farman.

[kmaherali]

Is there any Noorani script attached to this spiritual Ta'leem?

MSMS provides the answer in his memoirs:

"The way to personal fulfillment, to individual reconciliation with the Universe that is about us, is comparatively easy for anyone who firmly and sincerely believes, as I do, that Divine Grace has given man in his own heart the possibilities of illumination and of union with Reality. It is, however, far more important to attempt to offer some hope of spiritual sustenance to those many who, in this age in which the capacity of faith is nonexistent in the majority, long for something beyond themselves, even if it seems second-best. For them there is the possibility of finding strength of the spirit, comfort and happiness in contemplation of the infinite variety and beauty of the Universe."

[swamidada786]

Above all Preamble is Farman.

No preamble is part of the constitution, it is not a Farman.

The crucial question you omitted that is," What is the real defination of THE NOOR? Which no one has!!
Do you believe the Preamble describe and prescribe basic fundamentals of Ismailism?
The main part of constitution is Preamble, it came from the house of Imamat and Imam ordered in 1986 that the Preamble should be explained to jamaits. THAT PARTICULAR PORTION THE PREAMBLE WHICH BEARS SIGN OF HAZAR IMAM. After explanation of Preamble in jamaits the Gina part, " Saheb e Framan lakhi mokaliya ...." was recited. If it was not Farman then this particular part of Ginan should not have been recited, therfore Preamble is a Framan.

[swamidada786]

Is there any Noorani script attached to this spiritual Ta'leem?

MSMS provides the answer in his memoirs:

"The way to personal fulfillment, to individual reconciliation with the Universe that is about us, is comparatively easy for anyone who firmly and sincerely believes, as I do, that Divine Grace has given man in his own heart the possibilities of illumination and of union with Reality. It is, however, far more important to attempt to offer some hope of spiritual sustenance to those many who, in this age in which the capacity of faith is nonexistent in the majority, long for something beyond themselves, even if it seems second-best. For them there is the possibility of finding strength of the spirit, comfort and happiness in contemplation of the infinite variety and beauty of the Universe."

MSMH also said in Memoirs," I am certain that many Muslims, AND I AM CONVINCED THAT I MYSELF, HAVE HAD MOMENTS OF ENLIGHTENMENT AND OF KNOWLEDGE OF A KIND WHICH WE CAN NOT COMMUNICATE BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING GIVEN AND NOT SOMETHING ACQIRED.

[kmaherali]

The crucial question you omitted that is," What is the real defination of THE NOOR? Which no one has!!

Below is the excerpt from 1965 intereview:

Are you, for all believing Ismailis, a symbol of their Faith?

"Yes. Since My grand-father, the last Aga Khan, died, I have been the bearer of the "NOOR" a word which means "The Light" The NOOR has been handed down in direct descent from the Prophet. But My work and responsibilities overflow into the practical side of life."
https://www.ismaili.net/intervue/651212.html

Do you believe the Preamble describe and prescribe basic fundamentals of Ismailism?
The main part of constitution is Preamble, it came from the house of Imamat and Imam ordered in 1986 that the Preamble should be explained to jamaits. THAT PARTICULAR PORTION THE PREAMBLE WHICH BEARS SIGN OF HAZAR IMAM. After explanation of Preamble in jamaits the Gina part, " Saheb e Framan lakhi mokaliya ...." was recited. If it was not Farman then this particular part of Ginan should not have been recited, therfore Preamble is a Framan.

The Preamble is our official set of beliefs by which we should relate to others. They are not meant for the articulation of our faith to others. It does not contain all the beliefs, only those which are essential. For example there is no mention of NOOR, PIR DUA TRADITIONS etc

A Talika was sent when the constitution was ordained and it did not make any specific reference to the preamble as a separate entity!

[kmaherali]

They are not meant for the articulation of our faith to others.

Sorry typo, They are meant for the articulation of our faith to others.

[kmaherali]

MSMH also said in Memoirs," I am certain that many Muslims, AND I AM CONVINCED THAT I MYSELF, HAVE HAD MOMENTS OF ENLIGHTENMENT AND OF KNOWLEDGE OF A KIND WHICH WE CAN NOT COMMUNICATE BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING GIVEN AND NOT SOMETHING ACQIRED.

When the Memoirs was published, MSMS sent a Talika that he has 2 audiences in front of him. The Jamat and the others. The Memoirs is for others

[swamidada786]

MSMH also said in Memoirs," I am certain that many Muslims, AND I AM CONVINCED THAT I MYSELF, HAVE HAD MOMENTS OF ENLIGHTENMENT AND OF KNOWLEDGE OF A KIND WHICH WE CAN NOT COMMUNICATE BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING GIVEN AND NOT SOMETHING ACQIRED.

When the Memoirs was published, MSMS sent a Talika that he has 2 audiences in front of him. The Jamat and the others. The Memoirs is for others

If Memoirs was meant for westerners and non Ismailis only, then there was no need of informing jamaits' it is not for you'.
Thousands of Ismailis purchased Memoirs when first printed in 1954. There were some narratives and events which mostly Ismails did not digested. for example, about moutta (we have no record of Moutta with other Imams), about stealing books, about beautiful women, about cabaret dance and so on.

Let me give some informatiom: The task of Urdu translation of Memoirs was given to Joun Eliya (pen name) famous poet and well known literary personality in Karachi. He was younger brother of Rais Amrohi (himself a poet and author of many book).The Urdu translation was published by then Ismailia Association for Pakistan. After two months of sale on Chand Raat and Friday book stalls it was urgently withdrawn, and it was reqested those who purchased the books should return the same. Why the books were withdrawn, besause there was uproar in jamaits " Imam is innocent how does he allowed himself to do such things". Jamaiti members came under pressure how to justify the events mentioned in Memoirs. To satisfy jamaits Association sent missionaries to explain jamaits.

For Moutta, missionaries explained,"It is allowed in Shia traditions and by the way Quran allows 4 marriages". This argument back fired. Some Ismailis argued, Why not we do Moutta marraiges or can we keep 4 wivies.
Regarding stealing, the story of Krishna was narrated, saying look," krishna stole maakhan (butter) or he hide the clothes of Gopies".
Regarding Cabaret; it was narrated "Krishna watched Gopies dancing".
( I do not want to annoy any one, but facts are facts)

[swamidada786]

The crucial question you omitted that is," What is the real defination of THE NOOR? Which no one has!!

Below is the excerpt from 1965 intereview:

Are you, for all believing Ismailis, a symbol of their Faith?

"Yes. Since My grand-father, the last Aga Khan, died, I have been the bearer of the "NOOR" a word which means "The Light" The NOOR has been handed down in direct descent from the Prophet. But My work and responsibilities overflow into the practical side of life."
https://www.ismaili.net/intervue/651212.html

Do you believe the Preamble describe and prescribe basic fundamentals of Ismailism?
The main part of constitution is Preamble, it came from the house of Imamat and Imam ordered in 1986 that the Preamble should be explained to jamaits. THAT PARTICULAR PORTION THE PREAMBLE WHICH BEARS SIGN OF HAZAR IMAM. After explanation of Preamble in jamaits the Gina part, " Saheb e Framan lakhi mokaliya ...." was recited. If it was not Farman then this particular part of Ginan should not have been recited, therfore Preamble is a Framan.

The Preamble is our official set of beliefs by which we should relate to others. They are not meant for the articulation of our faith to others. It does not contain all the beliefs, only those which are essential. For example there is no mention of NOOR, PIR DUA TRADITIONS etc

A Talika was sent when the constitution was ordained and it did not make any specific reference to the preamble as a separate entity!

Kmaherali wrote"
"Yes. Since My grand-father, the last Aga Khan, died, I have been the bearer of the "NOOR" a word which means "The Light" The NOOR has been handed down in direct descent from the Prophet. But My work and responsibilities overflow into the practical side of life."
https://www.ismaili.net/intervue/651212.html

Swami: Every Ismaili believe Hazar Imam is bearer of Noor. But you are neglecting my basic and core question,"What is Noor, need PERFECT answer".

Kmaherali wrote: The Preamble is our official set of beliefs by which we should relate to others. They are not meant for the articulation of our faith to others. It does not contain all the beliefs, only those which are essential. For example there is no mention of NOOR, PIR DUA TRADITIONS etc

Swami: During previous debates, once I asked you, why not Qadi Noaman's book Dua'm ul Islam be made compulsory for today's Ismailism. Your answer was," Time changes Hidayat changes. It can not be, because it was written in different envinoment and time hence not applicable today". Let me quote few lines of Framan of MSMS;
1. I have made many changes in Farmans and am still altering them according to times.
2. Imam of the time is always present to guide you according to the changed times.
3. You will benefit if you obey the Farmans of Imam of the time.
My argument;
Fatmid period was different
Post Fatimid period was different
Almout period was different
Subcontinent period was different (still changes are going on) entering modern era.
Time change so do Farmans change.
Preambe and Dua (foundation of Ismaili Tariqah) will go hand in hand.

Kmaherali wrote: A Talika was sent when the constitution was ordained and it did not make any specific reference to the preamble as a separate entity!

Swami: Why Hazar Imam ordered that PREAMBLE SHOULD BE EXPLAINED TO ALL JAMAITS. Specially missionaries were trained to vonvey the message and explain articles of Preamble.

NOW MY TAKE: WHY AFTER 1986 PREAMBLE DISAPPEARED. IN PAST 40 YEARS NEVER EXPLAINED TO JAMAITS AGAIN. LIMITED COPIES WERE PRINTED. SOON AFTER IT WAS WITHDRAWN FROM NOTICE BOARDS IN JAMAITKHANAS?

[kmaherali]

( I do not want to annoy any one, but facts are facts)

There is nothing to be annoyed about and of course facts are facts and no one will dispute them. However for true Ismailis, the Imams can express themselves differently according to context and audience. You cannot judge them according to human standards of what is appropriate or not. They are Masum (pure and sinless) regardless of how they appear in the world. Memoirs has a lot of important and useful information for the Jamat as well as long as one is aware that it was for the non-Ismaili audience. No need for the Jamat to discard it!

[kmaherali]

"What is Noor, need PERFECT answer".

The Imam explained that NOOR is light and that it has come down from the Prophet. What more needs to be said?

Preambe and Dua (foundation of Ismaili Tariqah) will go hand in hand.

Dua not necessary for for explaining our faith to non-Ismailis

Swami: Why Hazar Imam ordered that PREAMBLE SHOULD BE EXPLAINED TO ALL JAMAITS. Specially missionaries were trained to vonvey the message and explain articles of Preamble.

I have not seen or heard of such an order, can you quote it here?

NOW MY TAKE: WHY AFTER 1986 PREAMBLE DISAPPEARED. IN PAST 40 YEARS NEVER EXPLAINED TO JAMAITS AGAIN. LIMITED COPIES WERE PRINTED. SOON AFTER IT WAS WITHDRAWN FROM NOTICE BOARDS IN JAMAITKHANAS?

Perhaps there was no need for that explanation!

[mahebubchatur]

Love Allah for His bounties, love me for Allah’s sake, & love my Ahl al-Bayt for my sake.” – Prophet PBUH ﷺ.

‎Sources: Tirmidhi 3789, Musnad Ahmad 3:164, Hakim 3:150.

‎Shared by ⁦‪@theismaili‬⁩ & ⁦‪@ismaili_studies‬⁩ ⁦‪@AKF_Global‬⁩ ⁦‪@akdn‬⁩

‎⁦‪@IsmailiHeritage‬⁩ ⁦‪@ismailicivic‬⁩

And Allah says in Qur’an:
“Obey Allah & obey the Messenger…” (4:59)
“Whoever obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah.” (4:80)
“Whatever the Messenger gives you, take it…” (59:7)

[swamidada786]

( I do not want to annoy any one, but facts are facts)

There is nothing to be annoyed about and of course facts are facts and no one will dispute them. However for true Ismailis, the Imams can express themselves differently according to context and audience. You cannot judge them according to human standards of what is appropriate or not. They are Masum (pure and sinless) regardless of how they appear in the world. Memoirs has a lot of important and useful information for the Jamat as well as long as one is aware that it was for the non-Ismaili audience. No need for the Jamat to discard it!

You select a sentence from my post of your choice and rest valuable arguments you discard. In your previous post you wrote, 'Memoirs was not meant for followers of Imam', now you changed your mind and wrote,"Memoirs has a lot of important and useful informationfor the jamaits as well".
Let me ask you again, why Urdu translation of Memoirs was withdrawn and stopped selling copies?

[swamidada786]

"What is Noor, need PERFECT answer".

The Imam explained that NOOR is light and that it has come down from the Prophet. What more needs to be said?

Preambe and Dua (foundation of Ismaili Tariqah) will go hand in hand.

Dua not necessary for for explaining our faith to non-Ismailis

Swami: Why Hazar Imam ordered that PREAMBLE SHOULD BE EXPLAINED TO ALL JAMAITS. Specially missionaries were trained to vonvey the message and explain articles of Preamble.

I have not seen or heard of such an order, can you quote it here?

NOW MY TAKE: WHY AFTER 1986 PREAMBLE DISAPPEARED. IN PAST 40 YEARS NEVER EXPLAINED TO JAMAITS AGAIN. LIMITED COPIES WERE PRINTED. SOON AFTER IT WAS WITHDRAWN FROM NOTICE BOARDS IN JAMAITKHANAS?

Perhaps there was no need for that explanation!

1. Again selected answers. You wrote, "The Imam explained that NOOR is light and that it has come down from the Prophet. What more needs to be said?".

Swami: All true Ismailis believe Imam is bearer of Noor, but my question to you was, what is the REAL DEFINITION OF NOOR? You wrote light, but at night before sleeping I turn off light and there is darkness!!

Kmaherali: "Preambe and Dua (foundation of Ismaili Tariqah) will go hand in hand.[/quote]
Dua not necessary for explaining our faith to non-Ismailis.

Swami: Shah Karim on few occasions said,"Explain Ismaili faith and Tariqa to non Ismailis". Now you are a kind of person who is restricting it! Dua is foundation of our Tariqa, why we shy to explain our philosophy and Tariqa to others. If that has been explained properly to others, then there should not have been "DHAMAAL" on U TUBE.

Kmaherali: Swami asked; Why Hazar Imam ordered that PREAMBLE SHOULD BE EXPLAINED TO ALL JAMAITS. Specially missionaries were trained to vonvey the message and explain articles of Preamble.[/quote]
I have not seen or heard of such an order, can you quote it here?

Swami: I donn't know wether you were present in JK while explanation of Preamble in 1986. Though young, I was present and missionary said,"It is from Hazar Imam to explain Preamble to jamaits".

[swamidada786]

swamidada786 wrote: Sat Sep 13, 2025 10:38 pm
NOW MY TAKE: WHY AFTER 1986 PREAMBLE DISAPPEARED. IN PAST 40 YEARS NEVER EXPLAINED TO JAMAITS AGAIN. LIMITED COPIES WERE PRINTED. SOON AFTER IT WAS WITHDRAWN FROM NOTICE BOARDS IN JAMAITKHANAS?

Kmaherali answered: Perhaps there was no need for that explanation!

Swami: Perhaps the conservative leadeship and seniors who are still living in era of MSMS, didi not like changes. Still situation is not changed because mostly same leadership is in power.
Changes started in last 7 years of Imamat of MSMS. In 1945 Imam said I am not going to change Ali Allah with Ali waliyullah, but in 1950, he changed Ali Allah with Aliyullah (means Ali is from Allah).
On his first visit to Pakitan Imam SMSM ordered President of Association," Waras Ginan mein Hari ko Ali kardo".
Changed the Dua in Arabic from vernacular languages.
Shah Karim changed lizikrihi to sujudi.
In 1975 Ginans with Hindu mythology were banned to be recited in JKs.
In 1986, Shah Karim gave Preamble explaining basic TENETS of Ismailim.
Banned K I M.
Ordered any mureed who had books or booklets in Khojki or Gujrati should be diposited in ITREB.
Currently curriculum of RCs from kindergarten to 12th grade is changed.
Farmans change according to changing times.

[kmaherali]

You select a sentence from my post of your choice and rest valuable arguments you discard. In your previous post you wrote, 'Memoirs was not meant for followers of Imam', now you changed your mind and wrote,"Memoirs has a lot of important and useful informationfor the jamaits as well".

I said there were 2 audiences for the Imam. The Jamat and the Other. It does not imply that it should not be read by Ismailis. It means that it can be read so long as the Jamat is aware that the audience is non-Ismaili. For example if the Imam wrote a book for kindergarten it does not imply that a university student should not read it. He could of course read it knowing that it is meant for kids.

Let me ask you again, why Urdu translation of Memoirs was withdrawn and stopped selling copies?

Perhaps the Urdu speaking Jamat could not be made to understand that there are 2 audiences for the Imam.

[kmaherali]

Swami: All true Ismailis believe Imam is bearer of Noor, but my question to you was, what is the REAL DEFINITION OF NOOR? You wrote light, but at night before sleeping I turn off light and there is darkness!!

There are many kinds of light - light of intellect, light of knowledge and wisdom etc. In the case of the NOOR of Imamat, it is the light of guidance.

Swami: Shah Karim on few occasions said,"Explain Ismaili faith and Tariqa to non Ismailis". Now you are a kind of person who is restricting it! Dua is foundation of our Tariqa, why we shy to explain our philosophy and Tariqa to others. If that has been explained properly to others, then there should not have been "DHAMAAL" on U TUBE.

Dua can raise issues with die hard Sunnis and hence it is not included in the preamble.

Swami: I donn't know wether you were present in JK while explanation of Preamble in 1986. Though young, I was present and missionary said,"It is from Hazar Imam to explain Preamble to jamaits".

I have always been present in JamatKhana and have never heard such a Farman or Hidayat!

[kmaherali]

In 1986, Shah Karim gave Preamble explaining basic TENETS of Ismailim.

He gave the constitution. Preamble was part of it stating the basic tenets of Ismailism for those reading the constitution to be ware of.

Banned K I M.

Not true. Imam told us to follow the Farmans of his grandfather!

Farmans change according to changing times.

I had mentioned earlier a Farman which stated many things such as our traditions don't change