i have a quick question for you.....is this Zaid Ibn Summayya the same person who was appointed by h.uthman to compile the quran in one book ???
Sahabae Karam and their conspiracies
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shiraz.virani
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arshad1988
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Regarding the compilation: Why would our Nabi (pbuh) have the Qur'an written down by scribes (Refer to 80:11-16) if it was going to be pointless? Please look at the below ayah to show who the job of collecting and compiling has been on - Again it shows your lack of reading replies:znanwalla wrote:How do you explain this then...." Obey Allah Obey the Prophet and Obey the Olil Amr.." - don't you think it should have been only "Obey ME" or "Obey Allah"? if what you say is true, then the above ayah seems to contradict your argument....am I right? I can sense you are in a panicked frame of mind brother ....
Okay let me show you another ayah...
" SAY: Though mankind and the JINN should ASSEMBLE to PRODUCE the LIKE of this QURAN, they could NOT produce the like thereof, even if they were to HELP one another..." (Sura Bani Isra'il)...
Now why would this not also apply to the scribes who put together "mushufs" and made it into a Book after the death of the Prophet, but without his authority and direction and one caliph comes and overturns the compilations of the previous one etc etc...? do please enlighten us Sir ?
In 23 years of Naboowat did the Holy Prophet embark on a formal co compilation process? No ! why not? can you explain please...if this was necessary to be done publicly or openly, would he not have done so?
You mentioned about Moses...Quran establishes the fact that God speaks to HIS slaves according to THREE modes and not just one mode of self-disclosure...so what you are saying is nothing unique or extra ordinary...it is in the Quran...It is in Sura al Shura and Sura al Nisa....and so God spoke to Moses from "behind a Veil and directly too.."
Now lets look at this one..." Between them is a Veil (Hijab) and on the HEIGHTS are MEN who KNOW them all by their marks.." (Sura al Ar'af)...so how do you explan this ayah then...does it impact Tawhid adversely ? Yes or No ?
"Verily God hath preferred Adam, Noah and the FAMILY of ABRAHAM and the FAMILY of IMRAN above HIS creatures..." (Sura al Imran)..so tell me pal, it covers "family" of Abraham and Imran...does it then EXCLUDE Abraham and Imran personally ?
I am not saying it does ....but at least you can help me here nah...
Now why are the others mentioned ABOVE preferred above all other creatures...? do you read that Adam and Noah has been mentioned personally but only Abraham and Imran's family has been included....am I right? or am I missing something ? I am sure an expert like you can help me unravel this intricacy ....
let me just leave it here for now....we will continue....Inshallah !
15:9. We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
Regarding the ayah from Surah al 'Araf, it clearly says that there will be a mark to distinguish those of Paradise, so I don't know how this has anything to do with Tawhid.
7:44. The Companions of the Garden will call out to the Companions of the Fire: "We have indeed found the promises of our Lord to us true: Have you also found Your Lord's promises true?" They shall say, "Yes"; but a crier shall proclaim between them : "The curse of God is on the wrong-doers;-
45. "Those who would hinder (men) from the path of God and would seek in it something crooked: they were those who denied the Hereafter."
46. Between them shall be a veil, and on the heights will be men who would know every one by his marks: they will call out to the Companions of the Garden, "peace on you": they will not have entered, but they will have an assurance (thereof).
I am not acquainted in the Arabic, and more specifically the Classical Arabic language. Insha Allah I will be soon enough. But my guess is that when you talk about a person's family, it includes the person himself. What are you making such a big deal about?
3:7. He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
MF...looks like you are trying to be on a fishing expedition Sir !
Lets look at fasting now...
Lets first examine what people say about you guys....
Mohamed Salmawy is President of the Arab Writers' Union and Editor-in-Chief of Al-Ahram Hebdo.
May god forgive you and all the "good" Muslims of this world .
CAIRO, EGYPT (Daily News) Sept.5, 2008 -- Islam says that in Ramadan,Muslims must eat double and triple the amount they eat on normal days in order to completely obliterate the underlying philosophy of fasting and the real objective behind abstaining from worldly pleasure.
That's why as soon as the iftar cannon goes off,a good Muslim starts binging on food in an unprecedented way.
At dawn he shuts his mouth and shuts the television and sleeps till noon the next day.
Islam says that women are a source of pleasure, especially those who don the veil.
This was proven by a recent statistic saying that veiled women are more likely to be subjected to sexual harassment than non-veiled women.
A good Muslim who harasses women in this way probably believes that they will not report him to the police because good Muslim women want to avoid scandal.
And because they know that harassment is one of the traits of a good Muslim,they accept being harassed in silence !
Islam says that if you stop eating from dawn till sunset then you can also stop working.
You even have a license to lose your temper and curse as much as you want.
Using the pretext that you're fasting you can disembark from the taxi or microbus that you drive and clobber anyone walking in the street.
I assure you that no one will be surprised at such behavior because you are all good Muslims who know that this kind of thing is natural in Ramadan because people are fasting, as they say.
Now I am not saying this Sir...I only shared an article with you...
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ok...so we have seen the quality of your fasting and the farce that goes with it...and you are boasting - it makes me laugh, to begin with...and secondly your ignorance makes me puke.....
Ismailis do better than you....first they don't pretend, nor do they give a lie of the land like you do....many don't fast but then this may be their own individual decision....
Nothing to do with any communal directive as FASTING is a PILLAR of OUR FAITH and the Imam also fasts...
However we do not go around "policing" anyone as each individual is liable to answer Allah....individuals ought to know their own responsibility.
Arabic for fasting is SAUM or SIYAM which means "abstaining" - so whilst this means abstaining from food, drink and sexual indulgence, it also means abstaining from talking rubbish ....
"SAY: I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficient and may NOT speak today to any mortal.." It is in the quran ....
but what people do is that they even kill and blow people during such a Holy Month that is full of blessings for us all....now who would do this? obviously the namesake muslims....the Munafiqun !
Fasting is prescribed for every religion and is not unique only to Islam ....!
Moses spent forty days at Mount Sinai fasting....Jews fast also...Hindus fast also....Jesus also fasted for forty days....
"Moreover when ye fast, be not as the hypocrites of a sad countenance..."
Ismailis fast also ! be strong in this belief !
Fasting purifies the body and improves intelligence......shows you are not really fasting pal.
The object of fasting is to keep away from evil....so tell me which evil is that you keep away from for I have a long list of the evil people follow and practice...
So if a person is supposedly "fasting" and committing sins and evil acts then he is a Munafiqun and Allah has kindly devoted an entire SURA in the Quran for them....so be happy and read it please .
Are you able to show us a religious practice without being conscious or boastful about it? then please do so.....
Keep the animal away from food and drink and it can arguably be said that the animal is also fasting....and so a real muslim will not only abstain from food but also avoid evil throughout the year and remain clean and bad habits like legalized prostitution; concubines; coercing women; cheating; lying; killing; blowing up mosques; blowing up children and women and not giving sadaqa which many don't etc etc....
hope this clarifies your misconceptions Sir !
Lets look at fasting now...
Lets first examine what people say about you guys....
Mohamed Salmawy is President of the Arab Writers' Union and Editor-in-Chief of Al-Ahram Hebdo.
May god forgive you and all the "good" Muslims of this world .
CAIRO, EGYPT (Daily News) Sept.5, 2008 -- Islam says that in Ramadan,Muslims must eat double and triple the amount they eat on normal days in order to completely obliterate the underlying philosophy of fasting and the real objective behind abstaining from worldly pleasure.
That's why as soon as the iftar cannon goes off,a good Muslim starts binging on food in an unprecedented way.
At dawn he shuts his mouth and shuts the television and sleeps till noon the next day.
Islam says that women are a source of pleasure, especially those who don the veil.
This was proven by a recent statistic saying that veiled women are more likely to be subjected to sexual harassment than non-veiled women.
A good Muslim who harasses women in this way probably believes that they will not report him to the police because good Muslim women want to avoid scandal.
And because they know that harassment is one of the traits of a good Muslim,they accept being harassed in silence !
Islam says that if you stop eating from dawn till sunset then you can also stop working.
You even have a license to lose your temper and curse as much as you want.
Using the pretext that you're fasting you can disembark from the taxi or microbus that you drive and clobber anyone walking in the street.
I assure you that no one will be surprised at such behavior because you are all good Muslims who know that this kind of thing is natural in Ramadan because people are fasting, as they say.
Now I am not saying this Sir...I only shared an article with you...
**************************
ok...so we have seen the quality of your fasting and the farce that goes with it...and you are boasting - it makes me laugh, to begin with...and secondly your ignorance makes me puke.....
Ismailis do better than you....first they don't pretend, nor do they give a lie of the land like you do....many don't fast but then this may be their own individual decision....
Nothing to do with any communal directive as FASTING is a PILLAR of OUR FAITH and the Imam also fasts...
However we do not go around "policing" anyone as each individual is liable to answer Allah....individuals ought to know their own responsibility.
Arabic for fasting is SAUM or SIYAM which means "abstaining" - so whilst this means abstaining from food, drink and sexual indulgence, it also means abstaining from talking rubbish ....
"SAY: I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficient and may NOT speak today to any mortal.." It is in the quran ....
but what people do is that they even kill and blow people during such a Holy Month that is full of blessings for us all....now who would do this? obviously the namesake muslims....the Munafiqun !
Fasting is prescribed for every religion and is not unique only to Islam ....!
Moses spent forty days at Mount Sinai fasting....Jews fast also...Hindus fast also....Jesus also fasted for forty days....
"Moreover when ye fast, be not as the hypocrites of a sad countenance..."
Ismailis fast also ! be strong in this belief !
Fasting purifies the body and improves intelligence......shows you are not really fasting pal.
The object of fasting is to keep away from evil....so tell me which evil is that you keep away from for I have a long list of the evil people follow and practice...
So if a person is supposedly "fasting" and committing sins and evil acts then he is a Munafiqun and Allah has kindly devoted an entire SURA in the Quran for them....so be happy and read it please .
Are you able to show us a religious practice without being conscious or boastful about it? then please do so.....
Keep the animal away from food and drink and it can arguably be said that the animal is also fasting....and so a real muslim will not only abstain from food but also avoid evil throughout the year and remain clean and bad habits like legalized prostitution; concubines; coercing women; cheating; lying; killing; blowing up mosques; blowing up children and women and not giving sadaqa which many don't etc etc....
hope this clarifies your misconceptions Sir !
Salat or Du'a 9as we call it)
Our Salaat is called Du'a which in Arabic means to Beg. We do not call it Namaz, ...Namaz is a persian ritual and may also mean fire worshipping..... we are not fire worshippers ! plus the Quran mentions salat and Du'a and Zikr but not Namaz !
Our Du'a consists of Six Suras from the Qur'an and the Prophet's own prayer, followed by the prayer that Prophet S.A.W. offered personnally after his recitation of Salaat...Our Du'a acknowledges TAWHID, NABOOWAT and IMAMAT !
In totality ismailis bow down in submission before Allah 18 times in a day as opposed to yours 15 times...so who is doing better? obviously us !
In the beginning there was no fixed time for prayer and no fixed prayer. During the first three years of his Naboowat the Holy Prophet prayed secretly.
Then on the request of Zaid bin Arqum prayers were conducted in his house until in the sixth year, the Prophet's uncle Hazrat Hamzah and Hazrat Umar embraced islam and when the numbers rose to fifty and they were strong enough to pray openly, they started prayers including in the kaaba.
Many Muslims according to Bukhari and Abu-Muslim prayed 50 times sometimes.
According to Historians prayer was regulated in or around the 11th year of Naboowat when the Holy Prophet had "ascended" to Meraj.
So how many times muslims prayed for the first 10 or eleven years Sir? do please enlighten us..
Now let us look at what the HQ says: You will find that mention is made of the obligatory prayer "Sala" in chapter/verses 2:43,83,110,153,238,; 4: :102; 6:72; 10:87; 11:114; 14:33; 17:78; 20:14; 23:2,9; 24:36,56; 29:45; 30:31; 33:33; 58:13; 73:20; 87:15 and 98:5.
These verses clearly ordain the momineen to "aqeem us sala" i.e. to keep up the Prayer.
A scholarly study of the HQ will show that it does not make mention of Five Prayers to be performed Five times a day as a rule and Dr Jilani writes that the collection of Ahadith talks about Prayer and Remembrances but barely any talks about Five Prayers a day.
At other places in the HQ the believers are told to say "tasbeeh" (hymn)..."hamd" (praise)....."du'a (begging) and to do Zikr (remembrance) in the morning and in the evening and in the night.
In the following verses morning and evening times have been mentioned: 6:52; 7:205; 18:28; 24:36; 30:17; 33:42; 40:55; and 48:9.
And then the following verses contain THREE Times, morning, evening and the early hours of the night: : 11:114; 17:78; 20:130; 50:39,40; 52:48,49; 76:25,26 and at other places the Prophet has been ordered to make a Sajdah in the night...Read 76:26.
In addition our Imam has told us repeatedly that we have to submit to Allah S.W.T. every minute we have free during the day. You will find this in Sura LXXIII 7-9:
"True there is for thee by day prolonged occupation with ordinary duties: But keep in remembrance The name of Thy Lord and devote thyself to Him wholeheartedly. He is the Lord of the East ad the West: there is no God but He: Take Him therefore for (thy) Disposer of Affairs."
do you do this ? it is a quranic dictate !
For all Shias, Walaya of the Imam is a fundamental pillar and the Shias believe that without Walaya of the Imam all the other Pillars are incomplete.
Ismailis are taught the pillars of Islam but again we do not force people because it is between the individual and Allah S.W.T.We do not police anyone ! each person is responsible for his or her own acts and obligations to God !
Ismailis are very diverse and live in 25 countries. This diversity is their strength and we do not need our own country because wherever we live, they are our own countries and we are respected and valued.
We do not even encourage/coerce people to convert to ismailism - we do not need to - we are secure in our faith and very happy - each man to his own !
I can give you an example viz a vis Sunni Islam. For e.g. on Friday they have two Adhans which was not a practice during the time of the Prophet but was introduced by Hazarat Uthman and to this day Sunni Muslims follow this, however, Ithanasheris and Bohoras do not have this additional adhan to their Friday prayers.
2. The Taraweeh prayers were mandated by Hadrat Umar and not the Prophet S.A.W.
These are just the two examples but the list is long.
We believe that the:
Women's rights are equal to Men
We have to and it is our duty to :
Help the needy, orphans, women and children
Feed the hungry
Respect all faiths
Follow the Light ( Light upon Light) (Nooran Mubin)
Follow the Ulil amr.(Imams of the Ahl al Bayt from the pure progeny of the Prophet)
pursue Jihad to eradicate illness and illiteracy and poverty and bring unity amongst the people...
Now do you have any more concerns? let me know Sir !
Our Salaat is called Du'a which in Arabic means to Beg. We do not call it Namaz, ...Namaz is a persian ritual and may also mean fire worshipping..... we are not fire worshippers ! plus the Quran mentions salat and Du'a and Zikr but not Namaz !
Our Du'a consists of Six Suras from the Qur'an and the Prophet's own prayer, followed by the prayer that Prophet S.A.W. offered personnally after his recitation of Salaat...Our Du'a acknowledges TAWHID, NABOOWAT and IMAMAT !
In totality ismailis bow down in submission before Allah 18 times in a day as opposed to yours 15 times...so who is doing better? obviously us !
In the beginning there was no fixed time for prayer and no fixed prayer. During the first three years of his Naboowat the Holy Prophet prayed secretly.
Then on the request of Zaid bin Arqum prayers were conducted in his house until in the sixth year, the Prophet's uncle Hazrat Hamzah and Hazrat Umar embraced islam and when the numbers rose to fifty and they were strong enough to pray openly, they started prayers including in the kaaba.
Many Muslims according to Bukhari and Abu-Muslim prayed 50 times sometimes.
According to Historians prayer was regulated in or around the 11th year of Naboowat when the Holy Prophet had "ascended" to Meraj.
So how many times muslims prayed for the first 10 or eleven years Sir? do please enlighten us..
Now let us look at what the HQ says: You will find that mention is made of the obligatory prayer "Sala" in chapter/verses 2:43,83,110,153,238,; 4: :102; 6:72; 10:87; 11:114; 14:33; 17:78; 20:14; 23:2,9; 24:36,56; 29:45; 30:31; 33:33; 58:13; 73:20; 87:15 and 98:5.
These verses clearly ordain the momineen to "aqeem us sala" i.e. to keep up the Prayer.
A scholarly study of the HQ will show that it does not make mention of Five Prayers to be performed Five times a day as a rule and Dr Jilani writes that the collection of Ahadith talks about Prayer and Remembrances but barely any talks about Five Prayers a day.
At other places in the HQ the believers are told to say "tasbeeh" (hymn)..."hamd" (praise)....."du'a (begging) and to do Zikr (remembrance) in the morning and in the evening and in the night.
In the following verses morning and evening times have been mentioned: 6:52; 7:205; 18:28; 24:36; 30:17; 33:42; 40:55; and 48:9.
And then the following verses contain THREE Times, morning, evening and the early hours of the night: : 11:114; 17:78; 20:130; 50:39,40; 52:48,49; 76:25,26 and at other places the Prophet has been ordered to make a Sajdah in the night...Read 76:26.
In addition our Imam has told us repeatedly that we have to submit to Allah S.W.T. every minute we have free during the day. You will find this in Sura LXXIII 7-9:
"True there is for thee by day prolonged occupation with ordinary duties: But keep in remembrance The name of Thy Lord and devote thyself to Him wholeheartedly. He is the Lord of the East ad the West: there is no God but He: Take Him therefore for (thy) Disposer of Affairs."
do you do this ? it is a quranic dictate !
For all Shias, Walaya of the Imam is a fundamental pillar and the Shias believe that without Walaya of the Imam all the other Pillars are incomplete.
Ismailis are taught the pillars of Islam but again we do not force people because it is between the individual and Allah S.W.T.We do not police anyone ! each person is responsible for his or her own acts and obligations to God !
Ismailis are very diverse and live in 25 countries. This diversity is their strength and we do not need our own country because wherever we live, they are our own countries and we are respected and valued.
We do not even encourage/coerce people to convert to ismailism - we do not need to - we are secure in our faith and very happy - each man to his own !
I can give you an example viz a vis Sunni Islam. For e.g. on Friday they have two Adhans which was not a practice during the time of the Prophet but was introduced by Hazarat Uthman and to this day Sunni Muslims follow this, however, Ithanasheris and Bohoras do not have this additional adhan to their Friday prayers.
2. The Taraweeh prayers were mandated by Hadrat Umar and not the Prophet S.A.W.
These are just the two examples but the list is long.
We believe that the:
Women's rights are equal to Men
We have to and it is our duty to :
Help the needy, orphans, women and children
Feed the hungry
Respect all faiths
Follow the Light ( Light upon Light) (Nooran Mubin)
Follow the Ulil amr.(Imams of the Ahl al Bayt from the pure progeny of the Prophet)
pursue Jihad to eradicate illness and illiteracy and poverty and bring unity amongst the people...
Now do you have any more concerns? let me know Sir !
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
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arshad1988
- Posts: 159
- Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:02 am
- Contact:
You should distinguish between Islam and Muslims. Islam has been perfected. On the other hand Muslims and anyone for that matter is imperfect, except Allah, may He be exalted. This article proves nothing about the Qur'an and Islam, but shows the ignorance of some Muslims, and this can be applied and said about many human beings...znanwalla wrote:MF...looks like you are trying to be on a fishing expedition Sir !
Lets look at fasting now...
Lets first examine what people say about you guys....
Mohamed Salmawy is President of the Arab Writers' Union and Editor-in-Chief of Al-Ahram Hebdo.
May god forgive you and all the "good" Muslims of this world .
CAIRO, EGYPT (Daily News) Sept.5, 2008 -- Islam says that in Ramadan,Muslims must eat double and triple the amount they eat on normal days in order to completely obliterate the underlying philosophy of fasting and the real objective behind abstaining from worldly pleasure.
That's why as soon as the iftar cannon goes off,a good Muslim starts binging on food in an unprecedented way.
At dawn he shuts his mouth and shuts the television and sleeps till noon the next day.
Islam says that women are a source of pleasure, especially those who don the veil.
This was proven by a recent statistic saying that veiled women are more likely to be subjected to sexual harassment than non-veiled women.
A good Muslim who harasses women in this way probably believes that they will not report him to the police because good Muslim women want to avoid scandal.
And because they know that harassment is one of the traits of a good Muslim,they accept being harassed in silence !
Islam says that if you stop eating from dawn till sunset then you can also stop working.
You even have a license to lose your temper and curse as much as you want.
Using the pretext that you're fasting you can disembark from the taxi or microbus that you drive and clobber anyone walking in the street.
I assure you that no one will be surprised at such behavior because you are all good Muslims who know that this kind of thing is natural in Ramadan because people are fasting, as they say.
Now I am not saying this Sir...I only shared an article with you...
**************************
ok...so we have seen the quality of your fasting and the farce that goes with it...and you are boasting - it makes me laugh, to begin with...and secondly your ignorance makes me puke.....
Ismailis do better than you....first they don't pretend, nor do they give a lie of the land like you do....many don't fast but then this may be their own individual decision....
Nothing to do with any communal directive as FASTING is a PILLAR of OUR FAITH and the Imam also fasts...
However we do not go around "policing" anyone as each individual is liable to answer Allah....individuals ought to know their own responsibility.
Arabic for fasting is SAUM or SIYAM which means "abstaining" - so whilst this means abstaining from food, drink and sexual indulgence, it also means abstaining from talking rubbish ....
"SAY: I have vowed a fast unto the Beneficient and may NOT speak today to any mortal.." It is in the quran ....
but what people do is that they even kill and blow people during such a Holy Month that is full of blessings for us all....now who would do this? obviously the namesake muslims....the Munafiqun !
Fasting is prescribed for every religion and is not unique only to Islam ....!
Moses spent forty days at Mount Sinai fasting....Jews fast also...Hindus fast also....Jesus also fasted for forty days....
"Moreover when ye fast, be not as the hypocrites of a sad countenance..."
Ismailis fast also ! be strong in this belief !
Fasting purifies the body and improves intelligence......shows you are not really fasting pal.
The object of fasting is to keep away from evil....so tell me which evil is that you keep away from for I have a long list of the evil people follow and practice...
So if a person is supposedly "fasting" and committing sins and evil acts then he is a Munafiqun and Allah has kindly devoted an entire SURA in the Quran for them....so be happy and read it please .
Are you able to show us a religious practice without being conscious or boastful about it? then please do so.....
Keep the animal away from food and drink and it can arguably be said that the animal is also fasting....and so a real muslim will not only abstain from food but also avoid evil throughout the year and remain clean and bad habits like legalized prostitution; concubines; coercing women; cheating; lying; killing; blowing up mosques; blowing up children and women and not giving sadaqa which many don't etc etc....
hope this clarifies your misconceptions Sir !
Fasting has been prescribed in the month of Ramadhan. Of course this refers to the fast of all evil, however, it is specifically ascribed to the physical fast.
2:185. Ramadhan is the (month) in which was sent down the Qur'an, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (Between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting, but if any one is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (Should be made up) by days later. God intends every facility for you; He does not want to put to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.
Fasting in the way you interpret it does not make sense in this ayah. Are you saying that Allah accepts one to be evil if he is ill, on a journey, or is not present in the month of Ramadhan?
Please be kind in your words towards others and show some tolerance. We are trying to have a dialogue, not a round of backbiting and tongue lashing.
Alright. All the same, my questions still remain to be answered.The Imam according to his interpretation of the Quran.
The Qur’an is open to interpretations, but it does not follow that a given (or some, or all) interpretation(s) is (are) true or false. Nor does it follow that anyone can just interpret it as he wills. Of course, you’re entitled to your ‘opinion,’ but that’s all your interpretation is, an opinion, and, as the great sage Plato said, an opinion is neither concerned with ‘truth nor falsehood but is somewhere in between the two’, ever-changing precisely because it has no basis. I say that it’s baseless because your claims, as a Muslims, are not rooted first and foremost in the Qur’an, which is absurd because that’s the place where all authentic Islamic doctrines derive their sustenance from. Instead, you try and prove what you have to say by the claims of your Imam, whose authority you have established neither for yourself nor for me. I’ll deal with this point in more detail below.Can you elaborate. In what way it has no basis. The Quran is open to all kinds of interpretations. It is very un-Islamic to say that someone's interpretation has no basis. I am entitled to my interpretation and you are entitled to yours. I only accept the Quran as valid if it's interpretation is guided by the Imam
Traditionally, as Sunnis and Twelver Shi’i scholars have understood it, the Qur’an refers to itself, not, however, as the specific and particular message revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (saw), but as a Revelation sent in the form of a book to previous prophets and their communities from the same God who now sent it. The Qur’an recognizes that the Christians and Jews recognize the God of Sayyidna Ibrahim (as) as the one and only God, as do Muslims, and that they practice their faiths based on divine regulations and ordinances. It therefore gives them a place in its world-view as legitimate people with legitimate revelations. This is not to say that all the scholars had this view but only that the majority of scholars did. Furthermore, as I mentioned in my previous post, the Muslim scholars even extended this acceptance of the Qur’anic revelation of previous religions to religions outside the Abrahamic family tree. Just to cite an example of this; from a theological perspective, when the Muslims encountered the Hindus in India, the scholars made a study of their religion and concluded they must be people of the book because they thought that the Hindus were descendants of Ibrahim (as) and that their word for God, Brahman, was related to the word Abraham (as). Although this was etymologically wrong, it was theologically very significant. They, as a result, didn’t declare them to be idolaters like the pre-Islamic Arabs and didn’t call for Jihad but, on the whole, lived peacefully with them side by side. The point I’m trying to make is that this Qur’anic idea of the the ahl al-Kitaab was understood in a very universalist sense precisely because of the universal nature of the Qur’an toward previous religions itself. Their understanding of the matter was based on Qur’anic material, supplemented by the hadith literature. Moreover, these scholars were well versed in all the Islamic sciences which is a prerequisite for anyone who wants to interpret the text. Your individualistic opinions/interpretations, on the other hand, lack all this. This is a problem in itself and I’m not even sure if members of your own community share your conclusions. I highly doubt it. What sources, then, are your interpretations informed by? If you answer your Imam – prove to me his authority as a source of interpretation. (This question is dealt with below).So what is the Book that the Quran refers to?
Anyway, there is much more to say about this question as the Muslim scholars developed a whole science when dealing with it but, for now, I think what I’ve said should suffice as a general account.
Kmaherali, you don’t seem to be following what I’m saying. I’m not denying that there is an ‘archetypal book underlying all books’. Nor am I denying what the Christians say about it, nor the Hindus, nor you Ismailis. My main concern here is with your belief that the present Qur’an is in someway corrupt or incomplete. I’m simply trying to draw out the logical consequences of your method of reasoning/interpreting as it concerns proving that the present Qur’an is false and that your Imam is the archetypal book. In your reasoning, your inferences inevitably turn against you, as I’ve showed, and now you must accept them. Again, just to be clear, I’m not denying that your Imam might be this archetypal book, but only your reasoning in trying to proves this, which first denies the authenticity of the present Qur’an apriori, without any proof. If you’re honest, then accept the consequences, even when they deny the authority, along with the Qur’ans, of your Imam. That is my only contention at the moment and the other questions i.e. about who this archetypal book is, how one comes to recognize him (a problem not unrelated to what we’re talking about), etc, can be put aside and dealt with at another time.At a shariati level you may be right, but at an esoteric level, all mystical traditions come to the recognition that the "archetypal (book) underlying all books" is the source of all books. It is a matter of recognizing who is the bearer of the archetypal book is. For Ismailis the archetypal book is manifested in the Imam, for Christians it the spirit of Christ, for Hindus it is manifested in Lord Krishna.
This is the main issue, I think, and the question I’ve been alluding to deal with above. Indeed, to escape my reprimands you make very bold claims here. That’s fine however, and I’ll talk to you task for them. I’ve only the following to ask you: Prove to me the following four premises without any reference whatsoever, by your own admission, to either the present Qur’an or the hadith literature.First it must be understood that essentially Imamat is NOT derived from the Quran. Imamat has always existed even before the mention of the Quran. Ismailism has existed since the beginning based on the premise that the world cannot exist without an Imam.
Quran is used as a means of articulating our doctrine and as I said earlier its validity is based on the authority of the eternal Imam.
1. That Imamat, as understood in Ismailism, has always existed.
2. That the Imamat belongs to the Aga Khan IV or that only he is the authoritative Imam.
3. That Ismailism has always existed since the beginning, and
4. That the world cannot exist without an Imam.
You’ll have to deal with all four questions separately and provide proofs for each of them independently of the others as they don’t necessarily entail each other. That is to say, proving question one does not answer two, nor four or three, etc. I must admit that what you are claiming is absolutely absurd seeing how that this particular issue, as it pertains to Ismailism, is theological in nature and is thus not something that can be proved independently of a particular revelation. It means, in other words, without the help of God, without His coming in to play, so to speak, through revelation, it can’t be done. Put simply, “you’re digging your own grave,” as the expression goes. Be that as it may, I’m waiting to hear what you have you say.
You’ll prove this to me once you satisfactorily answer the four questions I posed to you above.Hadiths are only used as tools to articulate our doctrine but not as basis of doctrine. For example if we have to articulate our doctrines to a Sunni Muslim we would use Hadiths accepted by the Sunnis to make our point. The same applies to the Quran, to Muslims we use verses of the Quran that they have accepted as well to prove our doctrine.
However our doctrines is not derived from the Quran and hadiths… Ismailism and Imamat has existed since beginning.
For centuries segments of your Jamat had religiously learned men who knew the Qur’an and hadith and knew that the doctrines of Ismailism derived from them. They didn’t abandon Ismailism even though they were isolated from the Imam because they believed the proof of his authority was in the Qur’an. Others who didn’t know anything about the Qur’an or hadiths relied on these religious authorities who provided them with the relevant material from the Qur’an and hadith. In any case, who are you specifically talking about and provide for me their proofs for what you just claimed for them i.e. that they ‘never needed to know the Qur’an and hadiths in order to derive Imamat’?For centuries many segments of our Jamat never needed to know the Quran and hadiths n order to derive Imamat. These are just used as tools to satisfy the needs of the context. Ismailism and Imamat has existed since beginning.
First of all let me clarify myself. I am not saying that the Quran is invalid. I do accept it as a final revelation to mankind from God. All I have said is that by itself it is not sufficient for guidance, so it is wrong to say that I am not rooted in the Quran. Indeed Quran itself validates the permanency of Imamat according to my interpretation:binom wrote:
I say that it’s baseless because your claims, as a Muslims, are not rooted first and foremost in the Qur’an, which is absurd because that’s the place where all authentic Islamic doctrines derive their sustenance from. Instead, you try and prove what you have to say by the claims of your Imam, whose authority you have established neither for yourself nor for me. I’ll deal with this point in more detail below.
"And He made it a word enduring among His posterity." ( XLIII, 28)
Another Qur'anic verse states:
"O men, a proof has now come to you from your Lord;
We have sent down to you a manifest light." (IV, 174.)
The manifest light is interpreted as the Imam.
On the issue of the people of the book, you say that my logic is flawed because if the Christians and the Jews do not follow the Imam, then the Imam is not the archetypal book. I say that to be the archetypal book, the Imam need not be followed by others. Because the Christians have their own version of the archetypal book they are considered as the people of the book.
Mystics or Sufis can elevate themselves to 'access' the archetypal book. The Imam is not the only bearer of the Noor. There can be others as well. For example, Masnavi of Mowlana Rumi is considered as the Persian Quran implying that Rumi manifested the archetypal book.
Yes this is the crux of the issue, I will respond to the four issues later....binom wrote: This is the main issue, I think, and the question I’ve been alluding to deal with above. Indeed, to escape my reprimands you make very bold claims here. That’s fine however, and I’ll talk to you task for them. I’ve only the following to ask you: Prove to me the following four premises without any reference whatsoever, by your own admission, to either the present Qur’an or the hadith literature.
For almost six centuries we had a Dua which was composed in Gujerati without any explicit reference to the Quran. The majority of the Khoja Jamats rooted in the Ginanic tradition, hardly knew about the Quran and the hadiths. It is only in the past 2-3 decades that we have been told to learn parts of the Quran and hadith because of the need to build bridges with others tariqahs in Islam. The Khoja Ismailis had very little contact with those learned in the Quran and the hadiths. Yes during the Fatimid period emphasis was placed in the Quran and the hadith and we are now being exposed to this literature as well.binom wrote: For centuries segments of your Jamat had religiously learned men who knew the Qur’an and hadith and knew that the doctrines of Ismailism derived from them. They didn’t abandon Ismailism even though they were isolated from the Imam because they believed the proof of his authority was in the Qur’an. Others who didn’t know anything about the Qur’an or hadiths relied on these religious authorities who provided them with the relevant material from the Qur’an and hadith. In any case, who are you specifically talking about and provide for me their proofs for what you just claimed for them i.e. that they ‘never needed to know the Qur’an and hadiths in order to derive Imamat’?
The article: 'THE PHILOSOPHICAL SIGNIFICANCE OF THE IMAM IN ISMA'ILISM' by Sami Makarem addresses the above issues. It can be accessed at:binom wrote:
1. That Imamat, as understood in Ismailism, has always existed.
2. That the Imamat belongs to the Aga Khan IV or that only he is the authoritative Imam.
3. That Ismailism has always existed since the beginning, and
4. That the world cannot exist without an Imam.
http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0908.html
I’m not saying that you believe the Qur’an to be invalid. I’m saying that you believe it to be incomplete and tampered with. Consequently, that is why you consider it to be insufficient for guidance by itself. What other reason could it be if not that?First of all let me clarify myself. I am not saying that the Quran is invalid. I do accept it as a final revelation to mankind from God. All I have said is that by itself it is not sufficient for guidance, so it is wrong to say that I am not rooted in the Quran.
There are two reasons why I say that you’re not rooted in the Qur’an: First, your particular interpretations (specifically about the ahl al-kitaab) have no basis in the Qur’an. Second, you claim that all the fundamental beliefs you hold as an Ismaili are not derived from the Qur’an. Am I not, after such assertions, justified in saying that you’re not rooted in the Qur’an since you yourself say you are not? You tell me.
Now here you’re contradicting the claim you made in your previous posts, namely, that your doctrines are not dependent upon the Qur’an.Indeed Quran itself validates the permanency of Imamat according to my interpretation:
"And He made it a word enduring among His posterity." ( XLIII, 2
Another Qur'anic verse states:
"O men, a proof has now come to you from your Lord;
We have sent down to you a manifest light." (IV, 174.)
The manifest light is interpreted as the Imam.
I’m only saying it’s flawed if you believe, as you do, that it is necessary that the Christians and Jews follow the ‘one Book’ mentioned by your Imam (in the interview) for it to be the true book. You then went on to conclude that since the Christians and Jews don’t follow the present Qur’an (a point the meaning of which I dealt with), it must then not be the one book. I’ve only pushed this argument of yours to its logical conclusion, which resulted in the impossibility of your Imam to be this one archetypal book as well, since he too is not followed by the Christians and Jews. Go back to what I’ve said concerning this point Kmaherali and consider it carefully since you seem to miss what it is that I’m trying to point out (no pun intended).On the issue of the people of the book, you say that my logic is flawed because if the Christians and the Jews do not follow the Imam, then the Imam is not the archetypal book. I say that to be the archetypal book, the Imam need not be followed by others. Because the Christians have their own version of the archetypal book they are considered as the people of the book.
Now you say, “to be the archetypal book, the Imam need not be followed by others.” But why have you changed your view? This is not the position you were holding before. Of course, as you should know, this inevitably means that the present Qur’an, contrary to what you said before, does not need to be followed by the Christians and Jews in order to be the ‘one Book’ mentioned by your Imam in the interview. If you deny this, then why do you make the exception for your Imam? If you accept it, then you must also accept that present Qur’an by itself is sufficient as a guide (something which you deny), since it’s the one true book, which also means that it’s complete (something else which you also don’t accept), since it can’t be the one true book and not be complete at the same time.
I’m the last person to deny this. Incidentally, this point is one the most powerful arguments against your own beliefs. However, I will not get into that right now.Mystics or Sufis can elevate themselves to 'access' the archetypal book.
I don’t deny this. The great Sufi Shuyukh and the hidden Twelve Imam of the Ithna’asharis also bear this noor. This is not the issue though.The Imam is not the only bearer of the Noor. There can be others as well. For example, Masnavi of Mowlana Rumi is considered as the Persian Quran implying that Rumi manifested the archetypal book.
Let me just say that I will only deal with the content of the article insofar as it attempts to provide answers to the four questions I posed to you. That is my concern and I will not go into the issues it raises that are not directly related to the point I’m trying to make or deal with them in themselves to see if they are valid or not.Yes this is the crux of the issue, I will respond to the four issues later....
The article: 'THE PHILOSOPHICAL SIGNIFICANCE OF THE IMAM IN ISMA'ILISM' by Sami Makarem addresses the above issues.
Having said that, let’s now see if it has the answers to my questions.
My first question to you was: without reference to the Qur’an (or hadith), prove to me that Imamat, as understood in Ismailism, has always existed.
The article does not prove this. Putting aside the fact that the concept of creation discussed (in the article) is derived from the Neoplatonic tradition, all it does is talk about al-Sijistani’s formulation of it, which he believes is derived from the Qur’an, as is clear in the language he employs and the verse (36:82) he cites in support of his account. Furthermore, al-Sijistani, after discussing the nature of God’s Will and identifying it with His Word, goes on to say that this Word of God must be manifested in this world to man. Notice, though, how he comes to this conclusion of his. The author of the article writes, “in order to show that this Word of God must always be manifested in this world, the Ismailis rely on the Qur'an” and then cites the relevant verses (43:28, 4:174) in support of it. This much is enough, I think, to show that you haven’t’ answered the question properly. Clearly, as you can see I’m sure, the ideas discussed by al-Sijistani are believed by him to have a Qur’anic base.
My second question was: without reference to the Qur’an (or hadith), prove to me that the Imamat belongs to the Aga Khan IV or that only he is the authoritative Imam. Nothing that is mentioned in the article sets out to prove this in any way. If you don’t think so, or if you think I’ve missed it, please point it out to me.
My third question was: without reference to the Qur’an (or hadith), prove to me that Ismailism has always existed since the beginning. The article has nothing to say about this as well. If you don’t think so, or if you think I’ve missed, please point it out to me.
My fourth question was: without reference to the Qur’an (or hadith), prove to me that that the world cannot exist without an Imam. The article, more or less, tries to show that there must be someone who manifests the Word of God. However, it does not try to do this without reference to the Qur’an (or hadith). Also, it does not prove that this Imam is the imam of the Ismailis or has to be him, but simply tries to show that he is someone who has to manifest the Word of God.
My questions therefore still remain to be answered. If you think otherwise, or that I’ve missed something in my assessments of the article, please point out to me exactly what it is that I’ve missed.
Your Du’a was composed by your pirs who necessarily knew of the Qur’anic foundations of the (Ismaili) doctrines they upheld; otherwise, your Ginans wouldn’t be full of references to them. Perhaps the Jamat didn’t know about the Qur’an and hadiths but, as I mentioned in my previous post, the religious authorities, in this case the pirs, who converted you to Islam, particularly Ismailism, knew well and they conveyed it to you in the language of Hinduism.For almost six centuries we had a Dua which was composed in Gujerati without any explicit reference to the Quran. The majority of the Khoja Jamats rooted in the Ginanic tradition, hardly knew about the Quran and the hadiths. It is only in the past 2-3 decades that we have been told to learn parts of the Quran and hadith because of the need to build bridges with others tariqahs in Islam. The Khoja Ismailis had very little contact with those learned in the Quran and the hadiths. Yes during the Fatimid period emphasis was placed in the Quran and the hadith and we are now being exposed to this literature as well.
For those who are wondering, I travel on the road for a living and rely heavily on my laptop as I have everything saved on it. Unfortunately my laptop finally gave up on me last week. Hence my absence during this past week. I have been able to read the posts, however, wasn't able to join in.
Imam Ali said to Abu Bakr/Umar that they will not see the Quran that he had compiled until the day of judgement, after they had refused to even look at it. What makes you think my Imam will disclose it to you. That would be contradicting what Imam Ali said.
To those who keep repeating about the corruption in Quran - ShamsB in his above quoted post made it clear what the Ismaili stand is. There is no need for the non-ismaili brothers to continue grinding their axe on this topic. Our Imam and therefore Ismailis have accepted Quran in its present form as the word of Allah. There is no doubt about it. The problem that the Shia community in general have with the present Quran is the way in which it was put together and by the people who were not authorized. The question is of omissions and its chronological order which changes the context of one ayat from its preceding and following ayats and hence creating differences of opinion as to the particular ayat(s) meaning and interpretation.
I believe we are having a very healthy and informative debate although some tough language is being used by both sides and would like to urge everyone to focus on one issue rather than ten people talking about ten different things.
Brother m0786, I think you should stay out of this as we know what your purpose is on this website. I asked the admin once not to throw you out but would not do it again. Take your fitna giri to the other website where you and I were thrown out of. I see you have joined that website back after apologizing to their admin for your fitna. You don't see the Ismailis back because we never apologized as we did not do anything wrong. It was you and your clan that created mischief and then apologized to be allowed to return. Now you are trying to do the same here.
I will write more once I get a grasp on this thread.
MF,m0786 wrote:HM should end this 1000 year debate. He should present complete Qur'an he has. Let's see how many years it will take!Shams B
I think you are not reading what's being written..the verses aren't corrupt..there are verses missing..the order is not chronological...there were verses removed...so what is there is not corrupted - it is incomplete.
Imam Ali said to Abu Bakr/Umar that they will not see the Quran that he had compiled until the day of judgement, after they had refused to even look at it. What makes you think my Imam will disclose it to you. That would be contradicting what Imam Ali said.
To those who keep repeating about the corruption in Quran - ShamsB in his above quoted post made it clear what the Ismaili stand is. There is no need for the non-ismaili brothers to continue grinding their axe on this topic. Our Imam and therefore Ismailis have accepted Quran in its present form as the word of Allah. There is no doubt about it. The problem that the Shia community in general have with the present Quran is the way in which it was put together and by the people who were not authorized. The question is of omissions and its chronological order which changes the context of one ayat from its preceding and following ayats and hence creating differences of opinion as to the particular ayat(s) meaning and interpretation.
I believe we are having a very healthy and informative debate although some tough language is being used by both sides and would like to urge everyone to focus on one issue rather than ten people talking about ten different things.
Brother m0786, I think you should stay out of this as we know what your purpose is on this website. I asked the admin once not to throw you out but would not do it again. Take your fitna giri to the other website where you and I were thrown out of. I see you have joined that website back after apologizing to their admin for your fitna. You don't see the Ismailis back because we never apologized as we did not do anything wrong. It was you and your clan that created mischief and then apologized to be allowed to return. Now you are trying to do the same here.
I will write more once I get a grasp on this thread.
Loose the sophomoric argument. Namaaz is term used for Salat in Persian, Indo-Pak and Bangla Desh region.Our Salaat is called Du'a which in Arabic means to Beg. We do not call it Namaz, ...Namaz is a persian ritual and may also mean fire worshipping..... we are not fire worshippers ! plus the Quran mentions salat and Du'a and Zikr but not Namaz !
Namaaz/Salat
The Namaaz /Salat is an act of prayer perform by every Muslims throughout living in the world five times of the day and night in specific timings fixed according to the geographical conditions of the area where it is been to be performed. Namaaz/Salat is a submission of our humbleness before the ALMIGHTY. Namaaz/Salat is a break for the Muslims of doing anything bad. Namaaz/Salat is compulsory for every Muslims since right from the age of eight years. Every Muslim whether he is king or puller of rickshaw performs Namaaz/Salat by standing side by side. Namaaz/Salat is second pillar of Islam out of five of main things to do.
Namaaz/Salat is a miraculous act of a Muslim. It is a talk in between ALMIGHTY and DEVOTEE. Every Namazi [the person] who is in performing of Namaaz/Salat may find himself in a sense of paradise. Islam is the only religion where believer believes in a single ALMIGHTY, is an absolutely A CREATOR, A DEMOLISHER AND infarct A POWER.
In the Namaaz/Salat , by following certain rules and regulations given by the QURAN and PROPHET MUHAMMED, who is the last messenger of GOD, every Muslim praise the ALMIGHTY and thanks of being been one to him/her from Islam. In the Namaaz/Salam read the verses of HOLY QURAN in Arabic only, by following certain guidelines of acts the Namaazi/Salat anywhere in the world in same way byfacing to KABA which is situated in SAUDI ARABIA. The KABA is nothing but a symbol for facing to Namaaz/Salat and a HOLY PLACE.
Prayers in Qur'an
(30:17) EXTOL, then, God’s limitless glory when you enter upon the evening hours, and when you rise at morn
These are fajr prayer and magharib prayer.
(30:18) and [seeing that] unto Him is due all praise in the heavens and on earth, [glorify Him] in the afternoon as well, and when you enter upon the hour of noon.
This is asr prayer and zuhr prayer
(11:114) And be constant in praying at the beginning and the end of the day, as well as during the early watches of the night.
These are fajr, magharib, and isha prayers
So, these are the five prayers as interpreted by the majority of the Muslim Ulama. It is also in line with teaching of Daa'imul Islam, whose primary authority is the Quran as interpreted by Imam Jafar al-Sadiq and earlier Imams.
The above Quran quotes are Muhammad Asad translations.
The following is from Maududi's Tafheemul Quran:
(1) The Dawn Prayer (Fajr in Arabic) given in 11:114, 24:58
(2) The Noon Prayer (Zuher in Arabic) , given in 17:78 and 30:18
(3) The Afternoon Prayer (Asr in Arabic), given in 2:238
(4) The sunset Prayer (Maghrib in Arabic), given in 11:114
(5) The Night Prayer (Isha in Arabic), given in 24:58
Also check this out.
ALLAH’S GUIDANCE
Qur’an 6:71-72
Qur’an 20:14
PRAISING THE ALLAH
Qur’an 110:1-3
Qur’an 18:23-24
Qur’an 30:17-18
CONDITION FOR PRAYER
(a) Washing before prayer (Wudu)
O who believe! Whenever you intend to pray, wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and [wash] your feet up to ankles.
(b) Full bath (Ghusl) if soiled
Qur’an 5:6
Qur’an 4:43
(c) Cleanliness in dress
Qur’an 7:31
Qur’an 74:4-5
(d) The direction of prayer
Qur’an 2:150
(e) The Times for prayer
Qur’an 4:103
Qur’an 11:114
Qur’an 17:78-80
Qur’an 20:130-132
(f) Prayer in Congregation
Qur’an 4:102
Qur’an 2:43
(g) Other Condition for Prayer
Qur’an 17:110
Qur’an 29:45
Qur’an 73:4
FRIDAY PRAYER
Qur’an 63:9-11
THE SPIRIT OF PRAYER
Qur’an 2:152-153
Qur’an 23:1-2
Qur’an 96:19
Qur’an 2:45
Importance of Salah
Buraydah reported that Prophet SAW said;
The difference between them [i.e. the disbelievers] and Us [i.e. The believers] is [the performance of] Salah. Whoever abandons it has disbelieved. [Ahmed, Ibn Majah, Muslim, An-Nasai and at-Tirmifhi]
Ubadah bin Samit reported that the Prophet said;
Whoever performs abulation well, offers the five obligatory prayers on time and properly completes the bowing and prostration has covenant with Allah that he will forgive him. And whoever does not do so has no covenant with Allah; if he wishes, He may forgive him and if He wishes, he may punish him. [Abu Dawud, Ahmed, an-Nasai nd Muwatta of Malik]
Let those who believe in Maududi, Buraydah, Abu Dawud, Ahmed, an-Nasai and Muwatta or Malik or Ahmed, Ibn Majah, Muslim, An-Nasai and at-Tirmidhi believe in those.
Lets be tolerant of people who have still not understood that there can not be many mini-Gods to whom they have given their allegiance....
Even today there are people killing in the name of Islam and in the name of Quran and killing other Muslims, trying to justify their unjustifiable acts from hadiths of the same sources, even from the holiest of the holy books. Such are those who have not understood the message of Allah.
When Allah wants, He will bring them to the Right Path.
I do not want this to generate into controversies. provocateurs will always be there on all forums.
It is up to the users to show maturity and restrain.
Lets be tolerant of people who have still not understood that there can not be many mini-Gods to whom they have given their allegiance....
Even today there are people killing in the name of Islam and in the name of Quran and killing other Muslims, trying to justify their unjustifiable acts from hadiths of the same sources, even from the holiest of the holy books. Such are those who have not understood the message of Allah.
When Allah wants, He will bring them to the Right Path.
I do not want this to generate into controversies. provocateurs will always be there on all forums.
It is up to the users to show maturity and restrain.
I attempted to post my reply but unfortunately it did not get posted. I will retry later.binom wrote:[
My questions therefore still remain to be answered. If you think otherwise, or that I’ve missed something in my assessments of the article, please point out to me exactly what it is that I’ve missed.
Seems like some are laboring under some sort of a mis apprehension....it is said that "ignorance is a worst kind of terrorism" !
Ablution.....
A daily bath is necessary and washing hands today is an absolute necessity all the time - One must use water all the time to cleanse or use tissue papers in absence of water...and if anyone has NOT taken a complete bath (like the Ismailis do - sometimes a bubble bath also) then Yes they also have to wash their hands, face and feet as one must come for prayers willingly with the fear of Allah and so everyone should take a bath before coming for prayers so that Allah may be pleased with you all.
Unfortunately the theologians have unduly added lots of unnecessary details...Maulvi Muhamad Ali says:.."Wudzu is just a simple process and the object is to clean the parts which are generally exposed.."
Modern discoveries today will show that apart from just washing the hands and feet and the face, there are other things which are also necessary to maintain complete hygiene and good health.
The Prophet has said.."look smart and clean" ! the Ismailis are both smart and clean and they take baths !
If anyone does a scholarly study of the relevant ayah..."and if you are unclean, purify yourselves and if ye are not sick or on a journey or one of you have a contact with women...then go to a higher ground and rub your faces and your hands...Allah would NOT place a burden on you but HE would purify you and would perfect HIS grace..." indicates that a complete bath with total hygiene is obviously preferable and more hygenic and a sound alternative also in these modern times !
Now Islam preaches PURIFICATION of not only the body but also of the mind and the soul and the "Jihad" unlike what the fools do, is to fight the inner evil and struggle or strive in the cause of Allah and live by the ethics of Islam as Islam is a way of life.
Allah loves those who purify themselves mentally and physically before saying their prayers and so the condition of Wudzu is applicable to all and to say thro innuendo hat Ismailis do not do this is a simple act of obfuscation !
A remarkable transformation took place among the arabs after embracing Islam.
The pagans remained dirty and unclean throughout their lives .these pagan folks lived a nomadic life in the company of mnay animals - there was scarcity of water and so they were unhygenic and filthy just like the beasts they lived with as nomads.
Many of them actually took a bath once or twice in their lifetime.
WUDZU :
So who says Ismailis do not do Wudzu?
Unless ofcourse they do not understand its historical context and ethic as many times people do rituals without actually understanding what they are doing or why?
Wudzu(pronounced woo-zoo)means ablution to clean all exposed and dirty parts of the body and the root of this arabic word is "waza" which means shape and beauty!
Islam improves every aspect of human life and it is a complete guidance for the world and the spiritual affairs of mankind.
Ablution.....
A daily bath is necessary and washing hands today is an absolute necessity all the time - One must use water all the time to cleanse or use tissue papers in absence of water...and if anyone has NOT taken a complete bath (like the Ismailis do - sometimes a bubble bath also) then Yes they also have to wash their hands, face and feet as one must come for prayers willingly with the fear of Allah and so everyone should take a bath before coming for prayers so that Allah may be pleased with you all.
Unfortunately the theologians have unduly added lots of unnecessary details...Maulvi Muhamad Ali says:.."Wudzu is just a simple process and the object is to clean the parts which are generally exposed.."
Modern discoveries today will show that apart from just washing the hands and feet and the face, there are other things which are also necessary to maintain complete hygiene and good health.
The Prophet has said.."look smart and clean" ! the Ismailis are both smart and clean and they take baths !
If anyone does a scholarly study of the relevant ayah..."and if you are unclean, purify yourselves and if ye are not sick or on a journey or one of you have a contact with women...then go to a higher ground and rub your faces and your hands...Allah would NOT place a burden on you but HE would purify you and would perfect HIS grace..." indicates that a complete bath with total hygiene is obviously preferable and more hygenic and a sound alternative also in these modern times !
Now Islam preaches PURIFICATION of not only the body but also of the mind and the soul and the "Jihad" unlike what the fools do, is to fight the inner evil and struggle or strive in the cause of Allah and live by the ethics of Islam as Islam is a way of life.
Allah loves those who purify themselves mentally and physically before saying their prayers and so the condition of Wudzu is applicable to all and to say thro innuendo hat Ismailis do not do this is a simple act of obfuscation !
A remarkable transformation took place among the arabs after embracing Islam.
The pagans remained dirty and unclean throughout their lives .these pagan folks lived a nomadic life in the company of mnay animals - there was scarcity of water and so they were unhygenic and filthy just like the beasts they lived with as nomads.
Many of them actually took a bath once or twice in their lifetime.
WUDZU :
So who says Ismailis do not do Wudzu?
Unless ofcourse they do not understand its historical context and ethic as many times people do rituals without actually understanding what they are doing or why?
Wudzu(pronounced woo-zoo)means ablution to clean all exposed and dirty parts of the body and the root of this arabic word is "waza" which means shape and beauty!
Islam improves every aspect of human life and it is a complete guidance for the world and the spiritual affairs of mankind.
MF,
Why is ADL & QIST not a Pillar of your faith? The noble Quran speaks so strongly about it?
btw....when we refer to the Quran we mean the Quran of Allah as revealed to Muhamad SAW and which is absolutely intact and NOT corrupted ! The Quran of Allah is well protected and will remain so until the Day of Judgment....when one talks of "defects" to any texts, it does not mean that it relates to the quran itself referred to hereinabove. ...there is a marked difference between the two !
Lets see what Allh has to say..."SAY: Though mankind and the JINN should ASSEMBLE to produce the LIKE of THIS QURAN, they could NOT produce th LIKE THEREOF, even if they were to HELP one another..."
Now how much more clear can Allah be? so many remaining scribes tried to put the revelations together in the form of "mushufs" - the end result is in front of us all...now when does a revelation cease to be a revelation?
The Book of Allah itself is Unique - the Texts are NOT !
Allah says ..."O ! Prophet ! challenge the people to bring a book like this one..." ( shows the Book was already existing...right?)....so is Allah also saying that your Texts which you call quran , is corrupted? He is right? Now where did HE say that HIS BOOK is corrupted? and so where did we say that the quran is corrupted? so why try to offer a twisted version of the truth pal?
Elsewhere Allah challenges mankind ..."SAY: Then bring Ten suras the like thereof, invented..." ( Just ten HE says....you can't !)...the scribes tried to put together the entire "quran"...so can Allah be wrong? No !
Nobody can, in reality, despite different fields of contemporary thought and learning and all the modern epistemological tools at our disposal, refute or confound the limpid, inimitable UNIQUINESS of the Quran ( I mean the Quran and not the confabulations of scribes)...The Quran is utterly beyond the speech of mankind....so try not to mix apples with oranges to hold us in disrepute in an unjustifiable manner...
Why is ADL & QIST not a Pillar of your faith? The noble Quran speaks so strongly about it?
btw....when we refer to the Quran we mean the Quran of Allah as revealed to Muhamad SAW and which is absolutely intact and NOT corrupted ! The Quran of Allah is well protected and will remain so until the Day of Judgment....when one talks of "defects" to any texts, it does not mean that it relates to the quran itself referred to hereinabove. ...there is a marked difference between the two !
Lets see what Allh has to say..."SAY: Though mankind and the JINN should ASSEMBLE to produce the LIKE of THIS QURAN, they could NOT produce th LIKE THEREOF, even if they were to HELP one another..."
Now how much more clear can Allah be? so many remaining scribes tried to put the revelations together in the form of "mushufs" - the end result is in front of us all...now when does a revelation cease to be a revelation?
The Book of Allah itself is Unique - the Texts are NOT !
Allah says ..."O ! Prophet ! challenge the people to bring a book like this one..." ( shows the Book was already existing...right?)....so is Allah also saying that your Texts which you call quran , is corrupted? He is right? Now where did HE say that HIS BOOK is corrupted? and so where did we say that the quran is corrupted? so why try to offer a twisted version of the truth pal?
Elsewhere Allah challenges mankind ..."SAY: Then bring Ten suras the like thereof, invented..." ( Just ten HE says....you can't !)...the scribes tried to put together the entire "quran"...so can Allah be wrong? No !
Nobody can, in reality, despite different fields of contemporary thought and learning and all the modern epistemological tools at our disposal, refute or confound the limpid, inimitable UNIQUINESS of the Quran ( I mean the Quran and not the confabulations of scribes)...The Quran is utterly beyond the speech of mankind....so try not to mix apples with oranges to hold us in disrepute in an unjustifiable manner...
We practise the Shariat in two dimensions and that is why perhaps many fail to understand or comprehend Ismailism....
(1) Islam. (2) Imam.
The first dimension is that of Islam
Islam (divine law) and which is symbolized in the opening (Al-Fatiha) of the essence of Qura'n (Ummil-Kitab).
In the name of Allah, the most companionate the most merciful.
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, the most compassionate, the most merciful, the Lord of the Day of Judgment, Thee alone we worship and Thee alone we seek for help.
Guide us to the up-right, path, the path of those upon whom Thous hast bestowed Thy grace, not those cursed ones, nor of those who have gone astray. (Ch 1, v. 1-7)
God as such is beyond time and space.
But the qualities of Mercy and Compassion are within space and time
Rahman (Compassionate) and Rahim (Merciful) are only used for material aspects.
Thus God who is beyond tempo-space location is brought within space and time by these attributes.
(2) The second dimensions that of Imam
Quran gives qualities to Al-Rahman as it says:
"Al Raham (the compassionate ) sits on the throne" (Ch20, v.5) and in another place it says:
"We only sent you as a Mercy (Rahma) for the World."(ch21, v.107)
"Say (O ! Muhammad): That if the Compassionate one has a son I am first among the worshippers."(ch 43, v 81)
Therefore, this indicates to us that al-Rahman (the compassionate) is a symbol for OUR Imam, and al-Rahim (Merciful) is a symbol for the Message Prophet Muhammad brought and gave us .
Besides, there are more verses of the Holy Koran which refer to this symbolism such as:
"The day when we shall summon all men with their Imam" (Ch17, v.17)
So atleast tell us which Imam will stand as your witness when you are summoned before Allah? it is only fair that you tell us...
The opening (al-Fatiha), more over, is a transitional state between two stages, Islam (Surrender and Iman (Faith) and faith is critical as God says in the Holy Koran:
"They think they have done you a favour, that they have embraced Islam. Say : Deem not your Islam a favour unto me ; nay, but Allah doth confer a favour on you, in as much as He hath led you to the faith, if ye are sincere." (ch.49 v.17)
Then it is clear that not every Muslim is necessarily a Mu'men (who has faith).
With this (faith) however, we Ismailis pass Shari'ah (Divine law) into Tariqa (the Way) as the Holy Koran says:
If they keep to the Way we shall give them to drink of water in abundance (Ch 73, v 16)
One thing to be noticed here is that when we ask God to show us the right way this does not mean that we are out of that way, and we are asking God to guide us to it.
On the contrary, we ask God to keep us on this Path, which is shown to us already by the Imam in knowing and obeying God's commandments and those of his messenger and Imam al-Zaman....again there are numerous ayats in the quran which allude to this notion.
Having got the connection and after realizing (faith), we can say :
"I prostrate before Thee and I rely upon thee, from Thee is my strength, and Thou art my protection O Maintainer of all beings...."
Our submission to the Imam e Zamana and his orders is fundamentally based on the reality of our faith which is born out of our knowledge of and obedience to divine laws.
O God, bless Muhammad, whom you have chosen and Ali whom you love, and the Holy Imams and the living proof of our faith our present Imam.
And so what evidence do you seek in regards to whether our Imamat is intact since the last 1400 years ! or what is his authority?... lies never last for long....Allah's covenant with Abraham is abundantly clear - the "except the Unjust ones" ( it is in the quran)....
Imamat is perpetual and continuous ! even if there are only two beings left, one has to be an Imam....you will find ample evidence of this in the mainstream Sh'ia books and the tafsirs of the Sh'ia Imams...
The faith of Ismilism is open for all man kind, and piety is considered in terms of what one can do for the help of others.
Prophet Muhammad says: "All human creatures are the folks of God. The most beloved to him are the most useful to his folks".
And Imam Ja'far Assadek also says:
The faithful is brother to the faithful, because the father of both is the light (the Imam) and their mother is Mercy (the Prophet).
Ismailis are unduly exposed to the ignorance of those who have barely any knowledge about us and so we have to face superstition and legends which have infiltrated the prophet's religion and this infiltration has spoilt the "heavenly messages" unfortunately.
The ones who harm Islam are those who believe that external
attributes such as a beard, a spot on the forehead [attesting to deep
genuflections during prayer], a veil, or a cloak are prescribed by Islam, and also those who accuse others of heresy and kill [them] on account [of these external attributes]OR the ones who falsely believe that woman is lewd..
(1) Islam. (2) Imam.
The first dimension is that of Islam
Islam (divine law) and which is symbolized in the opening (Al-Fatiha) of the essence of Qura'n (Ummil-Kitab).
In the name of Allah, the most companionate the most merciful.
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds, the most compassionate, the most merciful, the Lord of the Day of Judgment, Thee alone we worship and Thee alone we seek for help.
Guide us to the up-right, path, the path of those upon whom Thous hast bestowed Thy grace, not those cursed ones, nor of those who have gone astray. (Ch 1, v. 1-7)
God as such is beyond time and space.
But the qualities of Mercy and Compassion are within space and time
Rahman (Compassionate) and Rahim (Merciful) are only used for material aspects.
Thus God who is beyond tempo-space location is brought within space and time by these attributes.
(2) The second dimensions that of Imam
Quran gives qualities to Al-Rahman as it says:
"Al Raham (the compassionate ) sits on the throne" (Ch20, v.5) and in another place it says:
"We only sent you as a Mercy (Rahma) for the World."(ch21, v.107)
"Say (O ! Muhammad): That if the Compassionate one has a son I am first among the worshippers."(ch 43, v 81)
Therefore, this indicates to us that al-Rahman (the compassionate) is a symbol for OUR Imam, and al-Rahim (Merciful) is a symbol for the Message Prophet Muhammad brought and gave us .
Besides, there are more verses of the Holy Koran which refer to this symbolism such as:
"The day when we shall summon all men with their Imam" (Ch17, v.17)
So atleast tell us which Imam will stand as your witness when you are summoned before Allah? it is only fair that you tell us...
The opening (al-Fatiha), more over, is a transitional state between two stages, Islam (Surrender and Iman (Faith) and faith is critical as God says in the Holy Koran:
"They think they have done you a favour, that they have embraced Islam. Say : Deem not your Islam a favour unto me ; nay, but Allah doth confer a favour on you, in as much as He hath led you to the faith, if ye are sincere." (ch.49 v.17)
Then it is clear that not every Muslim is necessarily a Mu'men (who has faith).
With this (faith) however, we Ismailis pass Shari'ah (Divine law) into Tariqa (the Way) as the Holy Koran says:
If they keep to the Way we shall give them to drink of water in abundance (Ch 73, v 16)
One thing to be noticed here is that when we ask God to show us the right way this does not mean that we are out of that way, and we are asking God to guide us to it.
On the contrary, we ask God to keep us on this Path, which is shown to us already by the Imam in knowing and obeying God's commandments and those of his messenger and Imam al-Zaman....again there are numerous ayats in the quran which allude to this notion.
Having got the connection and after realizing (faith), we can say :
"I prostrate before Thee and I rely upon thee, from Thee is my strength, and Thou art my protection O Maintainer of all beings...."
Our submission to the Imam e Zamana and his orders is fundamentally based on the reality of our faith which is born out of our knowledge of and obedience to divine laws.
O God, bless Muhammad, whom you have chosen and Ali whom you love, and the Holy Imams and the living proof of our faith our present Imam.
And so what evidence do you seek in regards to whether our Imamat is intact since the last 1400 years ! or what is his authority?... lies never last for long....Allah's covenant with Abraham is abundantly clear - the "except the Unjust ones" ( it is in the quran)....
Imamat is perpetual and continuous ! even if there are only two beings left, one has to be an Imam....you will find ample evidence of this in the mainstream Sh'ia books and the tafsirs of the Sh'ia Imams...
The faith of Ismilism is open for all man kind, and piety is considered in terms of what one can do for the help of others.
Prophet Muhammad says: "All human creatures are the folks of God. The most beloved to him are the most useful to his folks".
And Imam Ja'far Assadek also says:
The faithful is brother to the faithful, because the father of both is the light (the Imam) and their mother is Mercy (the Prophet).
Ismailis are unduly exposed to the ignorance of those who have barely any knowledge about us and so we have to face superstition and legends which have infiltrated the prophet's religion and this infiltration has spoilt the "heavenly messages" unfortunately.
The ones who harm Islam are those who believe that external
attributes such as a beard, a spot on the forehead [attesting to deep
genuflections during prayer], a veil, or a cloak are prescribed by Islam, and also those who accuse others of heresy and kill [them] on account [of these external attributes]OR the ones who falsely believe that woman is lewd..
In addition, the Quran needs to be re-interpreted according to context and hence there needs to be an authoritative basis for it. No Tom Dick and Harry could do it.binom wrote:
I’m not saying that you believe the Qur’an to be invalid. I’m saying that you believe it to be incomplete and tampered with. Consequently, that is why you consider it to be insufficient for guidance by itself. What other reason could it be if not that?
In what manner it has no basis. The Book can be interpreted in many ways. It is my interpretation. You are free to disagree with it.binom wrote: There are two reasons why I say that you’re not rooted in the Qur’an: First, your particular interpretations (specifically about the ahl al-kitaab) have no basis in the Qur’an.
Yes my fundamental beliefs are not derived from the Quran in the sense that they existed before the Quran was revealed. I have accepted Quran as the final revelation confirming prior beliefs and in that sense, I can justify my beliefs based on it. In other words the Quran is my tool to articulate my beliefs and so long as there is justification in the Quran I consider my beliefs to have Quranic basis. I could have equally used Bhagavad Gita in a different context for example.binom wrote: Second, you claim that all the fundamental beliefs you hold as an Ismaili are not derived from the Qur’an. Am I not, after such assertions, justified in saying that you’re not rooted in the Qur’an since you yourself say you are not? You tell me.
Now here you’re contradicting the claim you made in your previous posts, namely, that your doctrines are not dependent upon the Qur’an.
OK I concede that My reasoning was flawedbinom wrote:
I’m only saying it’s flawed if you believe, as you do, that it is necessary that the Christians and Jews follow the ‘one Book’ mentioned by your Imam (in the interview) for it to be the true book.
The article states:binom wrote: Having said that, let’s now see if it has the answers to my questions.
My first question to you was: without reference to the Qur’an (or hadith), prove to me that Imamat, as understood in Ismailism, has always existed.
"As we have seen above, God's Word must in order to realize itself in this world, be manifested to man. The Imam who is the guide of the believers (those who comply with God's Word) is therefore the embodiment of this Word. He is God's Word manifested. The Imam, therefore, must always be present (muqim) in this world in order to guide the believers."
The above statement points to God's will as manifested in his word which must exist at all times to guide mankind. It is a metaphysical necessity. Sijistani used the Quranic notion of amr to derive at the Will or the word. But this could equally have been drived through concepts from other tradition such as ichhha (wish). Similarly the notion of the permanence of the word can also be derived from other traditions.
Sijistani sought Quranic justification because he lived in a Quranic context, but the notion of continuous guidance or the continuos presence of the 'word' can equally be dreived from the notion of Das Avtaar which is not Quranic. All traditions point to the need for this word to exist at all times. The Ismaili notion is that the word is manifested in the Imam. Since the word has existed at all times, it follows that Imamat has existed at all times.
The article states:binom wrote: My second question was: without reference to the Qur’an (or hadith), prove to me that the Imamat belongs to the Aga Khan IV or that only he is the authoritative Imam. Nothing that is mentioned in the article sets out to prove this in any way. If you don’t think so, or if you think I’ve missed it, please point it out to me.
My third question was: without reference to the Qur’an (or hadith), prove to me that Ismailism has always existed since the beginning. The article has nothing to say about this as well. If you don’t think so, or if you think I’ve missed, please point it out to me.
"I have shown above that the Ismai'ilis consider their Imam to be the embodiment of God's Will or Word. He is, therefore, the First Intellect manifested in this world. The seed of Imamate passes from one Imam to the other. For this institution of Imamate, as we have mentioned before, is God's Will or Word. Adam (31) was the first to be entrusted with that Word or Will, i.e. with the Imamate. In other words, he was willed by God to be Imam. He, in his turn, entrusted this Will or Word (the activity of the Imam) to his son, and so on. Every Imam would, in his turn, express this Will, and then entrust it to his successor, and thus this Will (the Imamate) would settle (istaqarra) and dwell (aqama) in the following Imam, and so on. Thus, the person of the Imam becomes the mustaqarr of God's Will or Word, i.e. the place in which God's Word is settled (istaqarra), as well as its muqam, i.e. the place in which God's Word dwells (aqama). In other words the person of the Imam would be the embodiment of God's Word which is the First Intellect or Origination as it was mentioned above. Thus, he is God's Nasut, or manifestation ; or, in other words, he is God as He appears to mankind. Whereas al-Lahut is God qua God, as He is in Himself."
The above passage points to the hereditory nature of the authority. The Present Imam is the direct descendant of the first Imam and he is the only authority. Since Imamat has existed since the Beginning, Ismailism has existed since the beginning.
The article quotes Hazarat Ali as saying:binom wrote: My fourth question was: without reference to the Qur’an (or hadith), prove to me that that the world cannot exist without an Imam. The article, more or less, tries to show that there must be someone who manifests the Word of God. However, it does not try to do this without reference to the Qur’an (or hadith). Also, it does not prove that this Imam is the imam of the Ismailis or has to be him, but simply tries to show that he is someone who has to manifest the Word of God.
"O, Salman and Jundub, I bring humanity to life and make them die, I create them, and nourish them... And the Rightful Imams from my progeny are acting in the same way, because all of us are one and the same imams manifested at all times... But with all this, we eat and drink, ... in the market place and do what we will, by the will of God, our Lord."
Another statement of the article:
"Al-Hamidi, in his highly esoteric book Kanz al-walad, (32) relates from the Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq that he said "Our appearance (zahir) is Imamate, and our reality is Divinity (ghayb) which cannot be attained." An-Nasafi, another Isma'ili da'i says in his book Kitab al-mahsul: (33) "The Imam is the end of Existence (ghayat al-wujud)... His essence is divine, and his life is eternal... He is the end of all ends and the creator of creation." In his book Zahr al-ma'ani, Idris Imad ad-Din mentions many sayings attributed to 'Ali, which show the Ismai'li belief in 'Ali, as well as in all the other Imams. He says relating from Jabir ibn 'Abdallah al-Ansari: (34)."
The above statements clearly prove that the world cannot exist without the Imams. Since Imam Ali and Imam Jafar as-saddiq were both Ismaili Imams and the present Imam is the direct descendant of them it follows that the Imam under consideration is the Ismaili Imam.
Our Pirs were well versed in the Quran and the hadith as well as in other traditions. There are no direct explicit references to the Quran or the hadith. One can of course make indirect correspondances. There are however references to the Vedic traditions. There are concepts in the Ginans such as the Das Avtars which are not at all mentioned in the Quran and the hadiths. Ginans are however quite clear that our tradition existed since the beginning and not from the time of the Prophet.binom wrote: Your Du’a was composed by your pirs who necessarily knew of the Qur’anic foundations of the (Ismaili) doctrines they upheld; otherwise, your Ginans wouldn’t be full of references to them. Perhaps the Jamat didn’t know about the Qur’an and hadiths but, as I mentioned in my previous post, the religious authorities, in this case the pirs, who converted you to Islam, particularly Ismailism, knew well and they conveyed it to you in the language of Hinduism.
"Someone asked what is more excellent than ritual prayer.
The master replied that one answer is the spirit of the ritual prayer ... A second answer is that faith is better than the ritual prayer. For the prayer has to be perform certain number of times a day, while faith is continual.
The prayer may be omitted for a valid excuse, and in certain circumstances it may be postponed. So this is another superiority of faith:
Faith cannot be omitted for any excuse, and under no circumstances may it be postponed. Faith without prayer is beneficial, but there is no benefit in the prayer without faith, as for example in the case of hypocrites.
Moreover, in every religion the ritual prayer is different, but faith does not change in any of them—its inward states, its Qiblah, and so forth are all the same" ([Source: William C, Chittick. The Sufi Path of Love: The Spiritual Teachings of Rumi. 1983. State University of New York Press, Albany. Pages 152-153]
"... The Quran mentions only three prayers a day, but tradition has
insisted on five..." (ISLAM by Prof.Fazlur Raheman of Chicago University.He was the Chairman of the Islamic Ideology Council the top advisory body to the Government of Pakistan. He spent many years teaching in Chicago University where he received honors and
wrote several books and papers on Islam) ...but the mullahs "ousted" him...
"...The Quran appears to require only three prayers a day, but
tradition insists upon five; the first begins at sunset [Maghrib], and is followed by the night [Isha], dawn [Fajr], noon [Zuhr], and afternoon [Asr] prayers. ..." (ISLAM by Alfred Guillaume p.66, Pelican Books, 1971 edtn)
"...In the earliest days of Islam prayers were said twice a day, at
morning and at evening (Quran 17:78/80; 18:27/28; 11:114/116;30:17/16 to which a noon prayer was added later (30:18/17;2:238/239; cf.24:58/57).
The traditional five daily prayer services are nowhere expressly mentioned in the Quran, but Tradition holds that they were prescribed for the Prophet at his "interview" with Allah during his Ascension (Miraj)..." ( Islam Muhammad and His Religion, edited by Arthur Jeffery, p.162, The Liberal arts Press, Inc. NY.1958)
Several Western Scholars of Islam have commented that the Quran prescribes only (3) daily prayers, but later tradition holds it to be (5).:
The Ahle-Sunnat Jamat uses the Ayats and combines them to arrive at their own innovative interpretation and the figure of (5).
" Verily We have sent thee ( O' Our Apostle Muhammad!) as a witness
and as a Bearer of glad-tidings, and as a Warner.
That ye may believe in God and His apostle and may aid him and revere him; And that ye may celebrate His glory MORNING AND EVENING ...."
"And glorify Him morning and evening. He it is who confereth upon you His blessings, and (likewise do) the angels, that He may bring you forth from the darkness (of infidelity) into the Light (of faith); and He is unto the believers, All-Merciful"
Light upon Light: God guideth unto His Light whomsoever He willeth; and God setteth forth parables for people; and God is All-Aware of all things.
(That Light is lit) in houses which God hath permitted to be exalted and His name be mentioned therein declare glory unto Him in the MORNINGS AND THE EVENINGS"
"Establish prayer (regularly) from the declension of the sun till the
darkness of the night, and the recital at the morn; verily the recital at the morn is witnessed. And (in the part) of the night, forsake sleep for prayer, in addition to (what is incumbent on) thee; Maybe that exalteth thee thy Lord unto a position praised."
"And establish thou, prayer in the two ends of the day, and at the
approaches of the night, Verily the good deeds take away the evil deeds; This is a reminder for the (believers who are) mindful (of their Lord.)
The master replied that one answer is the spirit of the ritual prayer ... A second answer is that faith is better than the ritual prayer. For the prayer has to be perform certain number of times a day, while faith is continual.
The prayer may be omitted for a valid excuse, and in certain circumstances it may be postponed. So this is another superiority of faith:
Faith cannot be omitted for any excuse, and under no circumstances may it be postponed. Faith without prayer is beneficial, but there is no benefit in the prayer without faith, as for example in the case of hypocrites.
Moreover, in every religion the ritual prayer is different, but faith does not change in any of them—its inward states, its Qiblah, and so forth are all the same" ([Source: William C, Chittick. The Sufi Path of Love: The Spiritual Teachings of Rumi. 1983. State University of New York Press, Albany. Pages 152-153]
"... The Quran mentions only three prayers a day, but tradition has
insisted on five..." (ISLAM by Prof.Fazlur Raheman of Chicago University.He was the Chairman of the Islamic Ideology Council the top advisory body to the Government of Pakistan. He spent many years teaching in Chicago University where he received honors and
wrote several books and papers on Islam) ...but the mullahs "ousted" him...
"...The Quran appears to require only three prayers a day, but
tradition insists upon five; the first begins at sunset [Maghrib], and is followed by the night [Isha], dawn [Fajr], noon [Zuhr], and afternoon [Asr] prayers. ..." (ISLAM by Alfred Guillaume p.66, Pelican Books, 1971 edtn)
"...In the earliest days of Islam prayers were said twice a day, at
morning and at evening (Quran 17:78/80; 18:27/28; 11:114/116;30:17/16 to which a noon prayer was added later (30:18/17;2:238/239; cf.24:58/57).
The traditional five daily prayer services are nowhere expressly mentioned in the Quran, but Tradition holds that they were prescribed for the Prophet at his "interview" with Allah during his Ascension (Miraj)..." ( Islam Muhammad and His Religion, edited by Arthur Jeffery, p.162, The Liberal arts Press, Inc. NY.1958)
Several Western Scholars of Islam have commented that the Quran prescribes only (3) daily prayers, but later tradition holds it to be (5).:
The Ahle-Sunnat Jamat uses the Ayats and combines them to arrive at their own innovative interpretation and the figure of (5).
" Verily We have sent thee ( O' Our Apostle Muhammad!) as a witness
and as a Bearer of glad-tidings, and as a Warner.
That ye may believe in God and His apostle and may aid him and revere him; And that ye may celebrate His glory MORNING AND EVENING ...."
"And glorify Him morning and evening. He it is who confereth upon you His blessings, and (likewise do) the angels, that He may bring you forth from the darkness (of infidelity) into the Light (of faith); and He is unto the believers, All-Merciful"
Light upon Light: God guideth unto His Light whomsoever He willeth; and God setteth forth parables for people; and God is All-Aware of all things.
(That Light is lit) in houses which God hath permitted to be exalted and His name be mentioned therein declare glory unto Him in the MORNINGS AND THE EVENINGS"
"Establish prayer (regularly) from the declension of the sun till the
darkness of the night, and the recital at the morn; verily the recital at the morn is witnessed. And (in the part) of the night, forsake sleep for prayer, in addition to (what is incumbent on) thee; Maybe that exalteth thee thy Lord unto a position praised."
"And establish thou, prayer in the two ends of the day, and at the
approaches of the night, Verily the good deeds take away the evil deeds; This is a reminder for the (believers who are) mindful (of their Lord.)
The philosophy is simple binom...!
The "Das Avtar" was born in Arabia !
Jesus has also said this over and over that Muhamad will be the "elect of God" and God shall be by him, manifested to the World and he will execute vengeance against idol worshippers and munafiqun - then Jesus said that through him "OUR God" will be glorified and Jesus has referred to Muhamad as the Messiah or Saviour - Muhamad is the Das Avtar ! and so what Islamic explanation you want?....do you need more references ? and which other Messiah are you guys waiting for ?
Imam ibn Musa says that until 313 believers (momins) are not there, Imam Mahdi will NOT come ! and so the only conclusion I can draw here, assuming the Imam knows what he is saying, is that in your entire cult you do not have 313 momeens - you can't even find 313 momins to bring back the Imam ...truly sad !
The first Nizari missionary to India, the eleventh century Nur Satgur, who is buried in Navsari in Gujarat, established the practice of spreading Nizari beliefs by using Hindu motifs and idioms, presenting the Nizari faith as a fulfillment of the millennial expectations of the Hindus of an Avatar. ...and the quran allows this...I have shown you the evidence hereinabove.
According to the Bible there were to be 12 princes :
The twelve rulers are commonly understood to refer to the twelve sons of Ishmael....Sunni ahadith mentions caliphs....I have checked all ahadith and the quran ayats....no evidence of just 12 Imams...show me in case I have missed them...the Twelve are:
The names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, 14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, 15 Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. 16 These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Genesis 25:13-16
Now what our Pirs did was in line with the quran and the Shia practice of taqiyya or secret concealment of beliefs, in order to stave off persecution so as to make the Nizari message more intelligible to a largely Hindu audience.
Allah says..."WE never punish until WE have sent a Messenger..." - now I hope you know that not all Messengers are Prophets....Allah confirms that HE will never punish any people until HE has revealed to them what their religious obligations are in the LANGUAGE OF THE FOLK...."
And WE set a just balance for the Day of Judgment so that no soul is wronged in aught.."
If one is to examine the Prophecies in the Hindu scriptures e.g Bhavisya Purana, Parv 3, Khand 3, Adya 3 Shalok 5-8 or the Athar Veda, Khanda 20, Sukta 127, mantra 1-3 or the parsi Scriptures Zand Avasta and Dasatir, I believe your ignorance will dissipate..the concept of "Naklanki Avtar" in the Sanskrit , among other conclusions, came to at least the following conclusions namely :
a) The names of the Hindu Avtars carry the same meaning in arabic with the names of the Prophet and his ahl al bayt.
b) that Muhamad is the Raja Bhoj and the Hindu scriptures too have called the prophet the "Maha Dev Arab" of angelic disposition who it says "has been purged of all sins"...not only that but the scriptures mention or say..." I make obeisance to thee O ! Ye ! the pride of mankind and the dweller of the desert and then they have referred to Muhamad SAW as the "image of the most pious God - the biggest Lord" and then the scripture says..." I am slave to thee..take me as one lying on thy feet..."...seems like they were more passionate than you huh?
Our Pirs introduced the Prophet's quran (essence) in their own language and in a manner that they could relate to it....so a relativity was created and the intelligent people quickly realized and thousands converted to Islam....wow ! how successful OUR Pirs were...muslims should be grateful to them and to the ismailis for converting so many Hindus to islam....show us how many have you converted? I am sure must have driven many away from Islam !
So using any "language of the hindus" is sanctioned by Allah in the Quran and so I urge you to kindly increase your knowledge and read properly instead of drawing surmises which are dangerous speculative and hinge on Fitna .
A key Ismaili missionary, and one who played a central role , was the fourteenth century Pir Shams or Shamsuddin Sabzvari, whose shrine is located in Multan.Multan was for a long time a major centre of the Nizari Ismaili movement and the Ismailis actually ruled the town for a while.
The mantra recited by many hindus even today contains the word ‘Nizar’, "Nijari" (Om Som Nikalank Dev Nizar’).
In this regard one may refer to a verse often recited by some of them that refers to the hope for the dawning of the day when ‘Brahmins, Banias, Kshatriyas and Muslims shall eat from the same plate’, when the ‘gathering shall be held in the house of the Rishi’—a powerful dream that they seeks to retrieve from the layers of myth that have been woven around the figure of the Ismaili social revolutionary Saints and Pirs.
The "Das Avtar" was born in Arabia !
Jesus has also said this over and over that Muhamad will be the "elect of God" and God shall be by him, manifested to the World and he will execute vengeance against idol worshippers and munafiqun - then Jesus said that through him "OUR God" will be glorified and Jesus has referred to Muhamad as the Messiah or Saviour - Muhamad is the Das Avtar ! and so what Islamic explanation you want?....do you need more references ? and which other Messiah are you guys waiting for ?
Imam ibn Musa says that until 313 believers (momins) are not there, Imam Mahdi will NOT come ! and so the only conclusion I can draw here, assuming the Imam knows what he is saying, is that in your entire cult you do not have 313 momeens - you can't even find 313 momins to bring back the Imam ...truly sad !
The first Nizari missionary to India, the eleventh century Nur Satgur, who is buried in Navsari in Gujarat, established the practice of spreading Nizari beliefs by using Hindu motifs and idioms, presenting the Nizari faith as a fulfillment of the millennial expectations of the Hindus of an Avatar. ...and the quran allows this...I have shown you the evidence hereinabove.
According to the Bible there were to be 12 princes :
The twelve rulers are commonly understood to refer to the twelve sons of Ishmael....Sunni ahadith mentions caliphs....I have checked all ahadith and the quran ayats....no evidence of just 12 Imams...show me in case I have missed them...the Twelve are:
The names of the sons of Ishmael, listed in the order of their birth: Nebaioth the firstborn of Ishmael, Kedar, Adbeel, Mibsam, 14 Mishma, Dumah, Massa, 15 Hadad, Tema, Jetur, Naphish and Kedemah. 16 These were the sons of Ishmael, and these are the names of the twelve tribal rulers according to their settlements and camps. Genesis 25:13-16
Now what our Pirs did was in line with the quran and the Shia practice of taqiyya or secret concealment of beliefs, in order to stave off persecution so as to make the Nizari message more intelligible to a largely Hindu audience.
Allah says..."WE never punish until WE have sent a Messenger..." - now I hope you know that not all Messengers are Prophets....Allah confirms that HE will never punish any people until HE has revealed to them what their religious obligations are in the LANGUAGE OF THE FOLK...."
And WE set a just balance for the Day of Judgment so that no soul is wronged in aught.."
If one is to examine the Prophecies in the Hindu scriptures e.g Bhavisya Purana, Parv 3, Khand 3, Adya 3 Shalok 5-8 or the Athar Veda, Khanda 20, Sukta 127, mantra 1-3 or the parsi Scriptures Zand Avasta and Dasatir, I believe your ignorance will dissipate..the concept of "Naklanki Avtar" in the Sanskrit , among other conclusions, came to at least the following conclusions namely :
a) The names of the Hindu Avtars carry the same meaning in arabic with the names of the Prophet and his ahl al bayt.
b) that Muhamad is the Raja Bhoj and the Hindu scriptures too have called the prophet the "Maha Dev Arab" of angelic disposition who it says "has been purged of all sins"...not only that but the scriptures mention or say..." I make obeisance to thee O ! Ye ! the pride of mankind and the dweller of the desert and then they have referred to Muhamad SAW as the "image of the most pious God - the biggest Lord" and then the scripture says..." I am slave to thee..take me as one lying on thy feet..."...seems like they were more passionate than you huh?
Our Pirs introduced the Prophet's quran (essence) in their own language and in a manner that they could relate to it....so a relativity was created and the intelligent people quickly realized and thousands converted to Islam....wow ! how successful OUR Pirs were...muslims should be grateful to them and to the ismailis for converting so many Hindus to islam....show us how many have you converted? I am sure must have driven many away from Islam !
So using any "language of the hindus" is sanctioned by Allah in the Quran and so I urge you to kindly increase your knowledge and read properly instead of drawing surmises which are dangerous speculative and hinge on Fitna .
A key Ismaili missionary, and one who played a central role , was the fourteenth century Pir Shams or Shamsuddin Sabzvari, whose shrine is located in Multan.Multan was for a long time a major centre of the Nizari Ismaili movement and the Ismailis actually ruled the town for a while.
The mantra recited by many hindus even today contains the word ‘Nizar’, "Nijari" (Om Som Nikalank Dev Nizar’).
In this regard one may refer to a verse often recited by some of them that refers to the hope for the dawning of the day when ‘Brahmins, Banias, Kshatriyas and Muslims shall eat from the same plate’, when the ‘gathering shall be held in the house of the Rishi’—a powerful dream that they seeks to retrieve from the layers of myth that have been woven around the figure of the Ismaili social revolutionary Saints and Pirs.
binom and MF....
I hope you try and focus more on "Faith by Action"
The real aim of religion, is the good action in being useful to others, and not only in repeating prayers like robots and chanting quran like poetry without having a clue of what one is doing !
Such good action (Amal) is mentioned by the Prophet SAW his Hadith (Holy tradition):
"He whose prayer does not prevent him from bad and evil, his prayer becomes a penalty on him".
It was also reported that the prophet asked once a group of travellers:
"Whom did you find to be the most pious amongst you?"
"They said: "Fulan" (so and so)."
"He said In what way ?"
They said He did not cease praying day and night.
He said "How was he fed?"
They said: "O Prophet, each one of us offered him food"
Then the prophet said: "Each one of you is better than him."
In the Holy Quran many verses urge for good deeds and action in order to fulfil faith and Islam.
"Who so desire the power (should know that ) all power belong the to Allah, unto Him good words ascend, and the pious deed so the exalt (ch.35 v. 10) and say Act; Allah will behold your actions and his messengers too and the believers" ( ch. 9, v. 105).
"And give glad tidings unto those who believe and do good works:"(ch.2,v.25)
"And for all there will be ranks from what they do, that He may pay FOR their deeds: and they will not be wronged."(ch.46 v. 19)
In short, all the religious articles of faith and rites are means and not ends in themselves, because the end is the good deed, the good word, and the progress and elevation of human society and of the individual within that society.
That is why, these means can be varied and adapted to the time and place and to the needs of man and society according to the possibility of realizing the human ends by them.
In our life as believers, we practise the conduct of our faith in Four stages:
1) Shari'at the law.
2) Tariquat the way.
3) Hakikat the truth
4) Marrifat- the knowledge.
We go through the Shari'at in two dimensions:
1) Islam- the Surrender.
2) Imam the Faith.
We go through the Tariquat in three dimensions:
1) The obedience - Al ta'at
2) The revelation - Al tabligh.
3) The covenant- Al bay'at - Mithak.
We go through the Hakikat in two dimensions:
1) The trust- Amanat.
2) The monotheism -Tawhid (69)
We can find all these dimensions in the Du'a which the Ismailis recite all over the world every day
The Du'a has deeper and more profound meaning than that of the verbal one.
A careful examination of the profound and allegorical meanings in our salat and practice shows the implementation by action in the four stages which contain the dimensions of the religion ...it is outside your scope of understanding Sir !
I hope you try and focus more on "Faith by Action"
The real aim of religion, is the good action in being useful to others, and not only in repeating prayers like robots and chanting quran like poetry without having a clue of what one is doing !
Such good action (Amal) is mentioned by the Prophet SAW his Hadith (Holy tradition):
"He whose prayer does not prevent him from bad and evil, his prayer becomes a penalty on him".
It was also reported that the prophet asked once a group of travellers:
"Whom did you find to be the most pious amongst you?"
"They said: "Fulan" (so and so)."
"He said In what way ?"
They said He did not cease praying day and night.
He said "How was he fed?"
They said: "O Prophet, each one of us offered him food"
Then the prophet said: "Each one of you is better than him."
In the Holy Quran many verses urge for good deeds and action in order to fulfil faith and Islam.
"Who so desire the power (should know that ) all power belong the to Allah, unto Him good words ascend, and the pious deed so the exalt (ch.35 v. 10) and say Act; Allah will behold your actions and his messengers too and the believers" ( ch. 9, v. 105).
"And give glad tidings unto those who believe and do good works:"(ch.2,v.25)
"And for all there will be ranks from what they do, that He may pay FOR their deeds: and they will not be wronged."(ch.46 v. 19)
In short, all the religious articles of faith and rites are means and not ends in themselves, because the end is the good deed, the good word, and the progress and elevation of human society and of the individual within that society.
That is why, these means can be varied and adapted to the time and place and to the needs of man and society according to the possibility of realizing the human ends by them.
In our life as believers, we practise the conduct of our faith in Four stages:
1) Shari'at the law.
2) Tariquat the way.
3) Hakikat the truth
4) Marrifat- the knowledge.
We go through the Shari'at in two dimensions:
1) Islam- the Surrender.
2) Imam the Faith.
We go through the Tariquat in three dimensions:
1) The obedience - Al ta'at
2) The revelation - Al tabligh.
3) The covenant- Al bay'at - Mithak.
We go through the Hakikat in two dimensions:
1) The trust- Amanat.
2) The monotheism -Tawhid (69)
We can find all these dimensions in the Du'a which the Ismailis recite all over the world every day
The Du'a has deeper and more profound meaning than that of the verbal one.
A careful examination of the profound and allegorical meanings in our salat and practice shows the implementation by action in the four stages which contain the dimensions of the religion ...it is outside your scope of understanding Sir !
Verily! Those who disbelieve and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, and from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) which We have made (open) to (all) men, the dweller in it and the visitor from the country are equal there [as regards its sanctity and pilgrimage (Hajj and 'Umrah)]. And whoever inclines to evil actions therein or to do wrong (i.e. practise polytheism and leave Islamic Monotheism), him We shall cause to taste a painful torment.
22:26
: Whoever thinks that Allah will not help him (Muhammad SAW) in this world and in the Hereafter, let him stretch out a rope to the ceiling and let him strangle himself. Then let him see whether his plan will remove that whereat he rages!
22:16
And proclaim to mankind the Hajj (pilgrimage). They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every deep and distant (wide) mountain highway (to perform Hajj).
22:28
Now does not the quran say that you allow everyone for Hajj ? it does ! so do you follow it? No ! why not Sir ?
Does it say that you should ride camels and go for Hajj? it does ! or on foot ! right? but then you get on the planes of the "infidels" - why sir?
22:26
: Whoever thinks that Allah will not help him (Muhammad SAW) in this world and in the Hereafter, let him stretch out a rope to the ceiling and let him strangle himself. Then let him see whether his plan will remove that whereat he rages!
22:16
And proclaim to mankind the Hajj (pilgrimage). They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, they will come from every deep and distant (wide) mountain highway (to perform Hajj).
22:28
Now does not the quran say that you allow everyone for Hajj ? it does ! so do you follow it? No ! why not Sir ?
Does it say that you should ride camels and go for Hajj? it does ! or on foot ! right? but then you get on the planes of the "infidels" - why sir?
The Holy Prophet used to pray at nine am in the morning daily...additionally the Prophet prayed if he was sad or if there was no rain or if there was a possibility of a calamity in the horizon....in the beginning muslims used to pray 50 times....if the prayer was regulated by the body of muslims in the 11th year, what were they doing prior to this? as per tradition , the angel had "whispered" in the ears of the Prophet to pray 5 times during Miraj...so if you claim you follow the sunnah then should you not be doing exactly as what the Prophet did? or do you simply pick and choose what suits you sir ?
In the Holy Quran great emphasis has been placed on the prayers in the morning; in the evening and in the night and this is obligatory !
Anyone who can devote more time should pray more frequently. ...recently in Turkey there has been a "fatwa" that Turks should now pray 3 times a day....
Those who love Allah should also rise up from their sleep in the later half of the night and remember Allah and beg for HIS pardon.....the mosques are all closed or empty ! The Jamat Khanas are open...
Also taking liberty from the life of the Nabi and various traditions, Ismailis combine two prayers ( Jamabain us salatin) at one time in between the Salatul Fajr ; Salatul Maghrib and Salatul Asha which is equivalent to the Salatul Wusta ( the midmost and the excellent prayer).....
So conversely within these three times a day...if one examines the issue critically, there are additional prayers being said also...and there are many devout Ismailis who pray more than this...they pray at noon ; at mid night and beyond...
It is stated by another Muslim scholar well versed in Ahadith Studies who said: The Prophet combined the Zuhr and Asr prayers even when there was neither journey nor danger. When his companions asked the Prophet why he did so, he replied,"So that my followers may not be in difficulty...". This combination was effected in Medina This can be offered both as early combination or late combination..."
In the Holy Quran great emphasis has been placed on the prayers in the morning; in the evening and in the night and this is obligatory !
Anyone who can devote more time should pray more frequently. ...recently in Turkey there has been a "fatwa" that Turks should now pray 3 times a day....
Those who love Allah should also rise up from their sleep in the later half of the night and remember Allah and beg for HIS pardon.....the mosques are all closed or empty ! The Jamat Khanas are open...
Also taking liberty from the life of the Nabi and various traditions, Ismailis combine two prayers ( Jamabain us salatin) at one time in between the Salatul Fajr ; Salatul Maghrib and Salatul Asha which is equivalent to the Salatul Wusta ( the midmost and the excellent prayer).....
So conversely within these three times a day...if one examines the issue critically, there are additional prayers being said also...and there are many devout Ismailis who pray more than this...they pray at noon ; at mid night and beyond...
It is stated by another Muslim scholar well versed in Ahadith Studies who said: The Prophet combined the Zuhr and Asr prayers even when there was neither journey nor danger. When his companions asked the Prophet why he did so, he replied,"So that my followers may not be in difficulty...". This combination was effected in Medina This can be offered both as early combination or late combination..."
just a correction - we recite 7 Suras in our Du'aznanwalla wrote:The Holy Prophet used to pray at nine am in the morning daily...additionally the Prophet prayed if he was sad or if there was no rain or if there was a possibility of a calamity in the horizon....in the beginning muslims used to pray 50 times....if the prayer was regulated by the body of muslims in the 11th year, what were they doing prior to this? as per tradition , the angel had "whispered" in the ears of the Prophet to pray 5 times during Miraj...so if you claim you follow the sunnah then should you not be doing exactly as what the Prophet did? or do you simply pick and choose what suits you sir ?
In the Holy Quran great emphasis has been placed on the prayers in the morning; in the evening and in the night and this is obligatory !
Anyone who can devote more time should pray more frequently. ...recently in Turkey there has been a "fatwa" that Turks should now pray 3 times a day....
Those who love Allah should also rise up from their sleep in the later half of the night and remember Allah and beg for HIS pardon.....the mosques are all closed or empty ! The Jamat Khanas are open...
Also taking liberty from the life of the Nabi and various traditions, Ismailis combine two prayers ( Jamabain us salatin) at one time in between the Salatul Fajr ; Salatul Maghrib and Salatul Asha which is equivalent to the Salatul Wusta ( the midmost and the excellent prayer).....
So conversely within these three times a day...if one examines the issue critically, there are additional prayers being said also...and there are many devout Ismailis who pray more than this...they pray at noon ; at mid night and beyond...
It is stated by another Muslim scholar well versed in Ahadith Studies who said: The Prophet combined the Zuhr and Asr prayers even when there was neither journey nor danger. When his companions asked the Prophet why he did so, he replied,"So that my followers may not be in difficulty...". This combination was effected in Medina This can be offered both as early combination or late combination..."
Thank you ! ...the important point is that our Du'a consists of critical ayats/Suras plus the Prophet's prayer contrary to some weird and derogatory allegations which have been made by the Munafiqun !
"Guide us to the Right path" ! all muslims say this prayer as Allah has commanded us to remember HIM so that HE would show us the path...logically had this path been just one which all would have to cross then God would not have mentioned this in Sura tul Hamd.
Since HE has commanded us to seek the Straight path it is evident that on the path which is NOT straight but crooked, is found that which is other than God and so if HE had made just one path on which we all had to walk and traverse then maybe the prayer would have been different than what it is now...
Guide us to the Straight path ! The path of THOSE upon whom THOU has BESTOWED favours !!...rather very conclusive ! I do not see any ambuiguity here !
So then the question arises, who are they on whom Allah has bestowed favours and whose path we all must follow ?
All muslims are reciting this prayer...it is in the quran ! we recite this daily in the first part of our Du'a....
I make an observation here that this invocation is specific and categorical....does not mention the Book , if you will....
If man practices the shar'iat without understanding the TAWIL and is overwhelmed by the TANZIL then his or her situation is indeed precarious....
If he or she inclines towards the left the person falls and if they incline towards the right they fall too...but if the person walks on the straight path...the path of humanity in which there is a balance between animality and angelicity i.e. the person acquires the knowledge which is the share of his or her soul and also does the work which is the share of the body, he or she walks on the straight path using both knowledge and practice and the Imam has said..."keep a balance between "Din & Duniya".....now how will everyone undertand the depth and the beauty of our Supplication, Salat or Du'a as we call it? many of them are simply swinging on their axis ! Now when Allah is happy HE graces one with Knowledge !
"Guide us to the Right path" ! all muslims say this prayer as Allah has commanded us to remember HIM so that HE would show us the path...logically had this path been just one which all would have to cross then God would not have mentioned this in Sura tul Hamd.
Since HE has commanded us to seek the Straight path it is evident that on the path which is NOT straight but crooked, is found that which is other than God and so if HE had made just one path on which we all had to walk and traverse then maybe the prayer would have been different than what it is now...
Guide us to the Straight path ! The path of THOSE upon whom THOU has BESTOWED favours !!...rather very conclusive ! I do not see any ambuiguity here !
So then the question arises, who are they on whom Allah has bestowed favours and whose path we all must follow ?
All muslims are reciting this prayer...it is in the quran ! we recite this daily in the first part of our Du'a....
I make an observation here that this invocation is specific and categorical....does not mention the Book , if you will....
If man practices the shar'iat without understanding the TAWIL and is overwhelmed by the TANZIL then his or her situation is indeed precarious....
If he or she inclines towards the left the person falls and if they incline towards the right they fall too...but if the person walks on the straight path...the path of humanity in which there is a balance between animality and angelicity i.e. the person acquires the knowledge which is the share of his or her soul and also does the work which is the share of the body, he or she walks on the straight path using both knowledge and practice and the Imam has said..."keep a balance between "Din & Duniya".....now how will everyone undertand the depth and the beauty of our Supplication, Salat or Du'a as we call it? many of them are simply swinging on their axis ! Now when Allah is happy HE graces one with Knowledge !
ShamsB
Salaam
Namaaz is term used for Salat in Persian and Indo Pak Bangladesh region.
There is a standard Namaaz/Salat for Muslims who follow 5 Madhabs (4 Sunni and a Jaffery) and by some Ismaili [Mustaali faction and their subs] factions. It is performed 5 times a day. Jaffery (Ithana Shari Shea) combine Zohar/ Asar and Maghreb/Isha Prayers. There are minor differences in position of hands or rising of hands but these are permissible due to their Imaam’s interpretations [Taqlid].
They all have 2+4+4+3+4=17 Rakats (Cycles) of Fird prayers. Each Rakat has Qiyam (Standing), Ruku (Bowing-total of 17 times) and 2 Sujud (prostration-Total 34 times). There are standard calls and reading (either loudly by Imaam or silently) in Arabic in each Rakat.
There is 4+6+6+5+6=27 surah of Quran recited. In addition to this Fird prayers Muslims recite Emphasised Sunna (2+6+0+2+2+3 (Witr)) prayers, Non emphasised sunna (0+0+4+0+4) prayers and Nafl (0+2+0+0+2+4) prayers. Most Namaazi (Practicing Muslims) pray Emphasised Sunna prayers without fail (prophet always prayed them).
Muslims also pray 2 Rakats of Tahiyatul Masjid before sitting down in Masjid.
If 2 Muslims are together and if it is prayer time then they are exhorted to pray in Jamaat and according to Prophetic tradition earn 27 fold sawab.
One should not argue that Ismaili dua is better than Muslim Salat/Namaaz or vice versa. Nobody has come back from heaven and reported which is better. We Muslims believe that if Allah wanted us to recite dua 3 times and direct it to him thru Imam then the Prophet of Islam would instructed us do so.
Please feel free to ask if you need additional information regarding Muslim worship.
Salaam
Namaaz is term used for Salat in Persian and Indo Pak Bangladesh region.
There is a standard Namaaz/Salat for Muslims who follow 5 Madhabs (4 Sunni and a Jaffery) and by some Ismaili [Mustaali faction and their subs] factions. It is performed 5 times a day. Jaffery (Ithana Shari Shea) combine Zohar/ Asar and Maghreb/Isha Prayers. There are minor differences in position of hands or rising of hands but these are permissible due to their Imaam’s interpretations [Taqlid].
They all have 2+4+4+3+4=17 Rakats (Cycles) of Fird prayers. Each Rakat has Qiyam (Standing), Ruku (Bowing-total of 17 times) and 2 Sujud (prostration-Total 34 times). There are standard calls and reading (either loudly by Imaam or silently) in Arabic in each Rakat.
There is 4+6+6+5+6=27 surah of Quran recited. In addition to this Fird prayers Muslims recite Emphasised Sunna (2+6+0+2+2+3 (Witr)) prayers, Non emphasised sunna (0+0+4+0+4) prayers and Nafl (0+2+0+0+2+4) prayers. Most Namaazi (Practicing Muslims) pray Emphasised Sunna prayers without fail (prophet always prayed them).
Muslims also pray 2 Rakats of Tahiyatul Masjid before sitting down in Masjid.
If 2 Muslims are together and if it is prayer time then they are exhorted to pray in Jamaat and according to Prophetic tradition earn 27 fold sawab.
One should not argue that Ismaili dua is better than Muslim Salat/Namaaz or vice versa. Nobody has come back from heaven and reported which is better. We Muslims believe that if Allah wanted us to recite dua 3 times and direct it to him thru Imam then the Prophet of Islam would instructed us do so.
Please feel free to ask if you need additional information regarding Muslim worship.
Buraydah was a Sahaba and narrator of Hadith.Let those who believe in Maududi, Buraydah, Abu Dawud, Ahmed, an-Nasai and Muwatta or Malik or Ahmed, Ibn Majah, Muslim, An-Nasai and at-Tirmidhi believe in those.
Late Maududi was a Islamic scholar and author of “Towards Understanding the Quran” a interpleaded translation and tafsir.
Abu Dawud, Ahmed, an-Nasai and Muwatta or Malik or Ahmed, Ibn Majah, Muslim, An-Nasai and at-Tirmidhi. They are all collectors of Ahadit.
These people are not mini-Gods. Mainstream Islam has no mini-Gods.Lets be tolerant of people who have still not understood that there cannot be many mini-Gods to whom they have given their allegiance....
Yes true and it is sad.Even today there are people killing in the name of Islam and in the name of Quran and killing other Muslims, trying to justify their unjustifiable acts from hadiths of the same sources, even from the holiest of the holy books. Such are those who have not understood the message of Allah.
Allah has shown us true path in Qur’an and Sunnah of his last Prophet. We believing Muslims should adhere to it.When Allah wants, He will bring them to the Right Path.
M0786 writes:
You are on record of saying that Ismaili dua is “shirk infested”. I can still go back to that website and quote you from there. You have made a living out of mocking every other madhab (other than your wahhabi beliefs) and especially the Shia beliefs and Imams and their rituals all throughout your life. And then you have the nerves to say what is quoted above? Your sincerity is not only in question it is proven to be biased.
Ismailis have responded to every one of your allegations rather convincingly yet you have looked the other way ignoring all the answers and kept up your rhetoric. One of your previous post is a copy/paste from another website to start your fitna here. I ask what is the purpose for this if not creating rift between people of different sects. Sincere questions like other non-ismailis are asking here is one thing, your intentions are to only mock our faith.
Please do not act like you don’t know anything I am saying. This website will not allow you to do what you do good which is dividing the Ummah and shrink its numbers. Compared to other non-ismaili brothers here you have absolutely no knowledge of Islam and its diversity. You rely heavily on Meherally and Mihir Bose and an artist of copy/pasting biased material from the internet to push your agenda without any research. You once said that there are less than two million true muslims in this world. Would you like for me to quote that? So now who are those less than two million “true” muslims? Are you one of those? And kindly tell us which is this new sect of less than two million “true” muslims?
Please answer in a new thread. You got questions? We've got answers to suit your fancy.
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No one is trying to prove our dua is better than yours. It is just your tunnel vision. One is only describing how we pray. You yourself said “or vice versa” above. Now let me ask you this, are you not trying to draw comparison between our way of praying and yours and also implying that 5 times prayer is right and 3 is wrong?
One should not argue that Ismaili dua is better than Muslim Salat/Namaaz or vice versa. Nobody has come back from heaven and reported which is better. We Muslims believe that if Allah wanted us to recite dua 3 times and direct it to him thru Imam then the Prophet of Islam would instructed us do so.
You are on record of saying that Ismaili dua is “shirk infested”. I can still go back to that website and quote you from there. You have made a living out of mocking every other madhab (other than your wahhabi beliefs) and especially the Shia beliefs and Imams and their rituals all throughout your life. And then you have the nerves to say what is quoted above? Your sincerity is not only in question it is proven to be biased.
Ismailis have responded to every one of your allegations rather convincingly yet you have looked the other way ignoring all the answers and kept up your rhetoric. One of your previous post is a copy/paste from another website to start your fitna here. I ask what is the purpose for this if not creating rift between people of different sects. Sincere questions like other non-ismailis are asking here is one thing, your intentions are to only mock our faith.
Please do not act like you don’t know anything I am saying. This website will not allow you to do what you do good which is dividing the Ummah and shrink its numbers. Compared to other non-ismaili brothers here you have absolutely no knowledge of Islam and its diversity. You rely heavily on Meherally and Mihir Bose and an artist of copy/pasting biased material from the internet to push your agenda without any research. You once said that there are less than two million true muslims in this world. Would you like for me to quote that? So now who are those less than two million “true” muslims? Are you one of those? And kindly tell us which is this new sect of less than two million “true” muslims?
Please answer in a new thread. You got questions? We've got answers to suit your fancy.
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