quran as mentioned in preamble

[tret]

According to the history compiled by Alwaez Abually the Pirs or the Hujjat of the Imam were appointed by the Imam and they were the Ahl alBayt.

Can you be kind and share the references to the resources that Abually took this information from? I assume he must have taken it from somewhere, right?

I think Tusi explains it better in the Paradise of Submission:

Thank you for this reference. That is absolutely correct and I haven't implied otherwise. During the lifetime of the prophets, they have their Wasi or Legatee; it's after the prophets, the Legatee is moved to the rank of natiq i.e. Mauwla Ali was the Wasi of prophet Muhammad during his lifetime, and after him Mauwla Ali became officially the Manifest Imam and moved to the rank of Natiq. Imams [or legatees] do the Tah'wil of the revealed message of God; where's Natiq does the Tanzil of the revealed message of God. If you have noticed the expressions such as "Prophet at His cycle" and "Imam at his day/age". They are in the same rank of Natiq, but each has their own time. Prophets have cycle, Imams have Day and we say Imam-e-Rozgaar.

The Pirs were Hujjats of the Imam. As I explained before the Imam's are the ShahPir at all times being the Mazhars of the Essence. Being the Mazhar of the Essence they are also the Mazhars of the Divine Intellects (as all existence emanates from the Essence). However the Imam may delegate the function of the Mazhar of Divine Intellect to another Ahl al-Bayt. So the Pir or the Hujjat performs the role of the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect which means providing guidance and acting intercessors.

kmaherali - can you please elaborate where is the Universal Soul in this context, who has Jamali (feminine attributes or qualities)? is it not supposed to be the Pir or Hujjat? or do you reconcile it differently?

note, when Imam gives farmaaan to murids, He blesses us with His "Paternal" and "Maternal" blessings, such as "I give you my best paternal and maternal loving blessings", for example. I understand it, Imam as Spiritual Father (Divine Intellect) and Hujjat as Spiritual Mother (Universal Soul) who creates individual souls.

As I have said on many occasions, the constitution is the zaheri document and it reflects the Zaheri aspect of our history. But there is a batini side of our history as well

It may be true; however, it would make no sense if what's in the constitution contradicts the essence of our faith. we as Nizari Ismaili must fully understand and adhere to the constitution set by the Imam of the time .

I agree that shariat is not what we are after; however, understanding of Shariat is essential. I.e. When you are at the airport, runway is very essential for plane to take off. without runway, you will not be able to get to your destination. However, once the plane is taken off, the runway is left behind and becomes obsolete, in relation to you. Similarly, in order for us to get to our final destination, understanding of the Shariat is a must. It should be understood properly, and only after understanding the esoteric interpretation of it, we can move to next stage.

"When Nabi Mohammed Mustafa departed from this world he appointed Pir Imam Hasan as his successor to carry on the work. Similarly, Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Husayn as the Imam after him." (Gujrati Farman book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.)"

okay so how do you interpret this farmaaan of the Imam? Are you now also implying that Pir can appoint his successor?

In fact the incidence of Ghadir has never been accorded that much significance in our tradition. There is no reference in the Ginans about the event. Until very recently we never observed the Idd e Ghadir. When our current Dua was first made available there was no mention of the names of the Panj tan paak. This was a later addition.

maybe in khoja tradition it wasn't (isnt) significant, but the event of ghadiri kum (and also idd ghadir for that matter) has always been significant and observed by all shias and Ismaili Nizari elsewhere. Please inform yourself, as opposed to base your assumption limiting in tradition and background that you have come to know.

so, let's say for a minute what you say is true (which is not); then why the importance is given now to ghadir-e-khum that has never been valid or important according to your assertion? did you not say before that we must not go/look backward? according to you this apparently seems going backward, is it not? Why MHI included this as part of our Du'a? I think we need to adhere the Farmaan and guidance of Present Imam. Whatever the guidance was during Sarkar SMS, was in accordance to that time; however, MHI today gives guidance according to today's time. Remember, your Admin said we'r ibn-ul-waqt.

According to our Ginans, it is very clear that the Prophet was the Pir who guided his murids to the Imam:

ejee nabee mahamad bujo bhaai, to tame paamo imaam
musharak man to kaafar kaheeye, moman deel kuraan..illaahee..2

Brothers, know Prophet Muhammed, then you will attain the Imaam. Only a kaafir (infidel) has polytheistic tendencies in his/her mind(heart). But a momin's heart is enlightened by Holy Qur'aan

you should also know that the Prophet said I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the gate.
Prophet also said, Ali and I are from the same Noor.

Generally I do not have a high regard for the hadith literature. The names of the 6 natiqs have not been mentioned in our Ginans and hence do not have a great deal of significance in our satpanth tradition. They were not even mentioned in our Old Dua when we recited the names of Imams prior to Hazarat Ali

first of all, 6 Natiq is mentioned in the Qur'an, if you believe in it. It has been explained by our very own Hujjats and Dais. so, basically you are saying whatever concept I find in Ginan I accept and whatever I don't, I reject? that doesn't sound like a wise choice, does it?

[agakhani]

If you have the reference, just put it there and stop chalenging others to find the information for you.

Who told you that I do not have that knowledge? and how do you guess that I need readers help to find out that ginan?matter of fact yes, I know it who wrote that ginan, which ginan it has been written!.

But After reading your rude comments I will not put it here sorry! go ahead and find out your self.

[Admin]

"If you hide what you know, you will be supposed to know nothing."

Maxims of Hazrat Ali
Ashraf publication, Pakistan

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
I have a question on the word NOOR.
If I need a loan from a moneyed person.Do I have say 'money, money n praise money or do I have pamper his ego n gain his confidence to get his money?
I would consider my a great Idiot n a fool if I am praying to NOOR?
I do not say Ya noor,Ya noor.?
I pray to to bearer of the Noor TO BE RECIEPIENT OF IT.It COULD BE to ANY like

Ya Ali, Ya Allah .Ya Mohammed.

Is 'Noor' itself GOd ?

or is the bearer of ' Noor' is God/prophet?.

If I were to say I like intellect of mr 'ig'.Do I only have acknowledge his intellect and dis respect abuse his personality,his physical appearance because he as human as me .His intellect has originated from him in the first place.In simple word his intellect is there because HE IS/WAS PHYSICALLY THERE to say or write.

I am once again putting it in capital letters.

THE WORD SHIRK EXISTS IN A MIND OF AN IGNORANT AND NOT BLESSED INTELLECTS.

[tret]

THE WORD SHIRK EXISTS IN A MIND OF AN IGNORANT AND NOT BLESSED INTELLECTS.

God says in the Qur'an, the greatest sin that God does not forgive is shirk. Refer to Surah an-Nisā’ 4:48 for reference.

[kmaherali]

They were all from fana fillah group. I do not under stand that all these Mazhars are found in Islamic world, What about the rest of world.!

There are fanna individuals in other traditions as well. As MSMS says in his Memoirs:

" Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."

An example of a non-Muslim that I would consider as a Fanna individual was Paramahansa Yogananda. I would strongly encourage you to read his autobiography which will give you a very good understanding of a Mursheed and other Fanna individuals. It is available online at:

http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/index.php

Km, you did not answer my query I posted. Once again I am asking you same question." In Ginanic literature Hari is replaced by Ali.So Naklanki awtar became Ali.
KAL MA VISHNU IMAM. This is how Pir Sadruddin explained Hindus of his time for conversion.That is how reincarnation changed to essence of Noorullah by applying 24/35".
My other question is that no one is quoting the entire ayat i Noor. Always last portion is missing. That is," wa yadhrib ullah ul amsaal linnasi.wallahu bi kuli shainn Aleem.
Means, Allah set forth Parables for people and He is knower of all things. Now my question is, WHAT IS THE MATERIAL OF NOOR .CAN WE CATCH IT, HOLD IT. CAN WE SEE IT, SEEING IS BELIEVING. DOES NOOR HAS SHADOW. ACCORDING LAWS OF NATURE, WHAT IS THE NATURE OF NOOR. IS IT LIKE NEON SIGN LIGHT OR IS IT FIRE? Allah says masalu noorhi ka mishkat, and at end says I am explaining in Parables. So what is Noor. In Ginans the word Noor has been used in different ways...
In 7/8 ginans the word Noor is used totally in different meanings!

I do not ascribe to the view that Hari has been changed to Ali. There is no need to do that. We need to preserve our traditions. The theory of reincarnation has not changed. It still remains the same.

In the Ginans, there are 2 levels of Noor. The first level is that of the Noor Nirakar as in the verse:

ejee nur neeraakaar jaannajo, te aaj paratak dev kahevaay
tenne aap ichh-chhaaye upaavyaa, bhaai chaud bhavan soy......3

Know the Light (nur) to be formless (Essence), which today is called the Manifest Lord (Imaam). He created out of His own desire, brother, the form and structure of the fourteen universes.

In another verse we have:

satgur kahere nure meendar samaareeyaa
ane nure rachyo aasmaan
te nur maanhethee nur pragatteeyaa
tenu satgur chhe naam re.........................10

The True Guide says: The world originated from the Light, and the heavens were created from the Light. From the (primordial) light, light manifested. It's name is the True Guide(Pir).

The above verse refers to two levels of Light: the Essence and the Divine intellect which is manifested in the Pir - True Guide.

[kmaherali]

Dear kmaherali,
Good, now you are openning.With ref. to you post addressed to Tret on Feb8,2015, you admitted,' Names of 6 NATIQS are not mentioned in Ginans., and there is no reference of GHADIR in Ginans. Ginans are devotional and sufi poetry, that's why Imam calls it wonderful tradition.".

Yes Ginans are a wonderful tradition and it contains knowledge and wisdom. Hence we do have historical and philosophical knowledge as well. We have names such as Pahelaj, Jujesthaan, Mata Kunta, Sati Tararani, Harischandra et as role models. The names of the 6 Natiqs have not been mentioned so as not to confuse the chain of Imamat with Nabuwat. They are two distinct concepts.

With ref. to Hazrat Hassan's Piratan, how old was he when He got Piratin?.".

He was 8 years old. MSMS was eight years old when he became the Imam. Our 48th Pir was an infant when he became the Pir. Age does not matter. Their wisdom and knowledge is innate and not acquired.

You quoted a couplet of Ginan 'Allah eek khasam sabhu ka',
I have reservation on the last part of this ginan, but right now I want to define the word 'tou'.
NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI TOU TAMEY PAMO IMAM
MUSHRIK MON TOU KAFIR KAHEIYE MOMIN DIL QURAN
Here tou word is important, tou is conditional.First you recognize Prophet Muhammad tou means then you will be able to know Imam. Km, you know well that IF or BUT can make lot of difference. .

So what is the meaning according to your understanding?

For me other surprise, I have been emphasizing to understand Quran. MOMIN DIL QURAN.You have given translation,"But a momin's heartis enlightened by holy Quran." That is what my topic is Quran according to Preamble.

Yes Qur'an is important. I have never implied otherwise!

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.

surah 4:48.
partnering any one with ali+lah=Allah is a shirk can be a sin
When I say ALI is sole god,that is my faith.I do not partner ALI with him at all is brand name but see ali as allah.
Calling Allah by his beautiful name does not mean that person is intent with partnering the two names.
the word used is as equal partner.
Is there any equal partner or any person on earth other than our IMAM saying:
1. we are the hands n face of god.(matching ayat in quran found)
2. all beautiful names of allah belong to us( ditto)
3.I am the bearer of Noor.
4. I AM THE SPRITIUAL FATHER.
5 Allah name is worshiped because of us.
6. Imamat is beyond comprehension for a normal person.

For me BOLTA QURAN Imam speaking as first persons in nearer time is more valid n true than words of his in quran of out of a third person.

there can be many anomalies like pronunciation,translation n tafseer .

My subject was Noor and not the entity Allah.I think zznoor put the right surah when the entity n status OF ALI+LAH=ALLAH is concerned.

the word use are equal partners with Allah:

1. it does not mention that he has no companions.
2. or deputies to serve him.
the surah was aimed at Christians who claimed Jesus as biological son of Allah and Hindus having a family tree of god n goddess even now.

leave it to ALI whom to punish what he said 1370 year back as his brand name Allah n what he tell later order us as 'eternal' Imam from time to time.

I FOLLOW 'ALI' N 'ALI' ONLY N NO OTHER ENTITY.

A question for scholar from below POV.
Imam SMS valued the 'masnavi 'of rumi as quran in Farsi.
Rumi himself sang like canary and called Shams tabriz as God.( not for time pass but in reality).He did partnered shams tabriz with god but his faith in him called him as god.
Rumi is respectively called as moulana( sad that shams t could make him Ismaili).

Million revere him EVEN NOW called as meleviya order.
My question is

A.) was Rumi 'a blessed Intellect' as seen by persians n others
or
B) was he total IDIOT N FOOL a infidel committing a shirk of his belief ?


I have still not completed my say on NOOR.

[kmaherali]

Can you be kind and share the references to the resources that Abually took this information from? I assume he must have taken it from somewhere, right?

I do not have the book with me, but I will post the references when I have the book. The whole history of the Pirs has been copied in this forum at:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... irs+sultan
You may want to read it.

kmaherali - can you please elaborate where is the Universal Soul in this context, who has Jamali (feminine attributes or qualities)? is it not supposed to be the Pir or Hujjat? or do you reconcile it differently?

note, when Imam gives farmaaan to murids, He blesses us with His "Paternal" and "Maternal" blessings, such as "I give you my best paternal and maternal loving blessings", for example. I understand it, Imam as Spiritual Father (Divine Intellect) and Hujjat as Spiritual Mother (Universal Soul) who creates individual souls.

Based on the Ginans and the various statements made by our 48th and 49 th Imams, according to my view of things, there are two metaphysical principles: the Essence whose functional Mazhar is the Imam – the Shah and the Divine Intellect (Will and Thought) whose functional Mazhar is the Pir or Hujjat. The Divine Intellect is the God of both the Jalali and Jamali attributes. I don't make the distinction between attributes.
According to MSMS in his Memoirs the Divine Intellect creates and sustains the Universe:
“The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time.”
The ‘Paternal’ refers to the Shah and the maternal refers to the Pir. The mother shows a child the father.

It may be true; however, it would make no sense if what's in the constitution contradicts the essence of our faith. we as Nizari Ismaili must fully understand and adhere to the constitution set by the Imam of the time .

If we strictly adhere to the constitution, are we to restrict our history to 1400 years? What about the continuity of the Imams even before Hazarat Ali? What about the Farman which states that our faith is based on thousands of years of history?
Surely we need a batini version within the Jamat to understand our history in its completeness.

"When Nabi Mohammed Mustafa departed from this world he appointed Pir Imam Hasan as his successor to carry on the work. Similarly, Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Husayn as the Imam after him." (Gujrati Farman book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.)"

okay so how do you interpret this farmaaan of the Imam? Are you now also implying that Pir can appoint his successor?

I think that is an exception to the rule because of the status of Muhammad as the Prophet. But otherwise the Imams have always appointed the Pirs.

so, let's say for a minute what you say is true (which is not); then why the importance is given now to ghadir-e-khum that has never been valid or important according to your assertion? did you not say before that we must not go/look backward? according to you this apparently seems going backward, is it not? Why MHI included this as part of our Du'a? I think we need to adhere the Farmaan and guidance of Present Imam. Whatever the guidance was during Sarkar SMS, was in accordance to that time; however, MHI today gives guidance according to today's time. Remember, your Admin said we'r ibn-ul-waqt.

First let me clarify, I never meant to undermine or discard the present practices of the Idd e- Ghadir or the recitation of Panj Tan Paak in our Dua. I do observe the Idd e- Ghadir and I also recite the names of Panj Tan Paak in our Dua. I appreciate that this has been a compromise approach to accommodate the various strands of beliefs within our Tariqah and also to respect the views of other Shia beliefs.
However we must also keep in mind that MHI has said that diversity is a strength and not weakness. Therefore as we move forward we must accept that which is beneficial and useful from all traditions.

you should also know that the Prophet said I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the gate.
Prophet also said, Ali and I are from the same Noor.

I think we need to make the distinction between the function and the status of the Prophet and the Imam. I have no doubt that the Prophet had attained Fanna and therefore status-wise they were equal. It is a matter of how one interprets their roles in history. You are welcome to choose your approach so long as there is no compromise in the obedience to the Imam and his status as the Mazhar of the Essence.
A murid can also become Fanna but he will always call himself a murid unless of course he is appointed by the Imam to perform a role in our Tariqah.

first of all, 6 Natiq is mentioned in the Qur'an, if you believe in it. It has been explained by our very own Hujjats and Dais. so, basically you are saying whatever concept I find in Ginan I accept and whatever I don't, I reject? that doesn't sound like a wise choice, does it?

There are a couple of issues with regard to the mention of the 6 Natiqs in the Qur’an. First there aren’t only 6 but about 35 of them. Secondly, they are not mentioned together in the manner which implies their exclusive status as interpreted by the Hujjats and Dais.

Also I have a problem of the implication of the role of the 6 Natiqs as the 6 phases of creation and hence restricting the creation to 6000 years only. It is not just simply that they are not mentioned in the Ginans. MSMS says in his Memoirs:
“All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost.”

[tret]

Dear kmaherali -

The following are few observation from the link you provided.

The Ima'm is the Supreme Authority appointed directly by Allah

Do you accept this? I am sure the author doesn't mean Imam is appointed by Himself.

He [the Imam] is the asa's (foundation, cause, root) and Pi'r is the na'tiq (conversant, conversationist, messenger)

I'd like to see a reference regarding this assertion.

Natiq is the annunciator; where is As'as is the foundation [who does the Ta'wil of the revealed message of God]. i.e. Prophet Moses received the message of God, and delivered it as Tanzil to people; where as Aron did the Ta'wil of the message, and the chain of As'as [Imams] continues until the appearance of next Natiq.

Similarly, Prophet Mohammad received the message of God, and delivered as Tanzil to people; where as Mauwla Ali does the Ta'wil of the revealed message of God [See Constitution document for reference].

During the dawr of Imamate, Imams are Natiq, because Imam gives His Farameen, through the mediation of Pir [also mentioned in the history of Pirs in that link], where as Imam's Hujjat does the Ta'wil of the Farameen of the Imam. So, Imam functions as Natiq [annunciator] and Imama's Hujjat as As'as who does the Ta'wil.

PJi'r is appointed from the family of the Holy Ima'm and remains as such for life

I'd like to see a reference regarding this assertion.

This is true for Imams that must be a) from the progeny of the Prophet [Ahl-e-Bayt] b) must be appointed by the Imam. However, for the Hujjat, I haven't seen anywhere to be the case.

In Isma'ilism the word [Pir] is especially used for the Ima'me' Musta'uda that is Hujjatul Ima'm, the Ima'm's trustee or deputy.

I'd like to see a reference regarding this assertion.

Imam Mustawda [aka Trustee Imam] is not the same as Hujjat [aka Pir]. They can be the same person, but the function of Imam Mustawda and Hujjat are not the same.

Imam Mustawda : Is elected, from the Ahl-e-Bayte, by the Imam of the Time at His sole discretion in special circumstances, when the office of Imamate requires it, and only the Imam of the Time decides, to entrust the office of Imamate temporarily to the Trustee Imam. Trustee Imam [Imam Mustawda] is not needed at all Dawr of Imamate.

Hujjat of the Imam [aka Pir]: Can or can not be from the Ahl-e-Bayte. Presence of Hujjat is needed at all times. Hujjatsihp is one of the two permanent offices, the other is Imamate.

[ShamsB]

Dear kmaherali -

The following are few observation from the link you provided.

The Ima'm is the Supreme Authority appointed directly by Allah

Do you accept this? I am sure the author doesn't mean Imam is appointed by Himself.

He [the Imam] is the asa's (foundation, cause, root) and Pi'r is the na'tiq (conversant, conversationist, messenger)

I'd like to see a reference regarding this assertion.

Natiq is the annunciator; where is As'as is the foundation [who does the Ta'wil of the revealed message of God]. i.e. Prophet Moses received the message of God, and delivered it as Tanzil to people; where as Aron did the Ta'wil of the message, and the chain of As'as [Imams] continues until the appearance of next Natiq.

Similarly, Prophet Mohammad received the message of God, and delivered as Tanzil to people; where as Mauwla Ali does the Ta'wil of the revealed message of God [See Constitution document for reference].

During the dawr of Imamate, Imams are Natiq, because Imam gives His Farameen, through the mediation of Pir [also mentioned in the history of Pirs in that link], where as Imam's Hujjat does the Ta'wil of the Farameen of the Imam. So, Imam functions as Natiq [annunciator] and Imama's Hujjat as As'as who does the Ta'wil.

PJi'r is appointed from the family of the Holy Ima'm and remains as such for life

I'd like to see a reference regarding this assertion.

This is true for Imams that must be a) from the progeny of the Prophet [Ahl-e-Bayt] b) must be appointed by the Imam. However, for the Hujjat, I haven't seen anywhere to be the case.

In Isma'ilism the word [Pir] is especially used for the Ima'me' Musta'uda that is Hujjatul Ima'm, the Ima'm's trustee or deputy.

I'd like to see a reference regarding this assertion.

Imam Mustawda [aka Trustee Imam] is not the same as Hujjat [aka Pir]. They can be the same person, but the function of Imam Mustawda and Hujjat are not the same.

Imam Mustawda : Is elected, from the Ahl-e-Bayte, by the Imam of the Time at His sole discretion in special circumstances, when the office of Imamate requires it, and only the Imam of the Time decides, to entrust the office of Imamate temporarily to the Trustee Imam. Trustee Imam [Imam Mustawda] is not needed at all Dawr of Imamate.

Hujjat of the Imam [aka Pir]: Can or can not be from the Ahl-e-Bayte. Presence of Hujjat is needed at all times. Hujjatsihp is one of the two permanent offices, the other is Imamate.

Tret - now you're getting somewhere.

Pir Shams and Pir Sadardeen and Pir Hasan Kabirdeen were from Ahl-e-Bayt and were the Imam Mustawda

Dai Syedna Nasir Khusraw was not from Ahl-e-Bayt and could not have been the Imam Mustawda.

You use the word Pir to mean Hujjat - which is how it works in your tradition - to the Indo Sub Pak tradition - Pir refers to the Imam Mustawda not the Hujjat.

Shams

[tret]

Tret - now you're getting somewhere.

Pir Shams and Pir Sadardeen and Pir Hasan Kabirdeen were from Ahl-e-Bayt and were the Imam Mustawda

Dai Syedna Nasir Khusraw was not from Ahl-e-Bayt and could not have been the Imam Mustawda.

You use the word Pir to mean Hujjat - which is how it works in your tradition - to the Indo Sub Pak tradition - Pir refers to the Imam Mustawda not the Hujjat.

Shams

Dear Shams,

While I agree partially with you; however, according to my understanding here are the differences and similarities between the stations of 1)Imam Mustawda [Trustee Imam], 2) Hujjat 3) Pir.


1) Imam Mustawda [Trustee Imam]: As I said,
- must be from Ahl-e-Bayte.
- Only needed in special circumstances, when the office of Imamate requires it, and appointed by sole discretion of the Imam of the Time, to entrust the office of Imamate temporarily.

2) Hujjat [aka Pir in khojagi tradition]: Is appointed from among one of 4 Hujjat of proximity. This Hujjat [Pir] can or can not be from Ahl-e-Bayte. This Pir[Hujjat] is needed at all times. This station is one of the two permanent offices, namely a) Imamate and b) Hujjatship. If you assert that Hujjat [Pir] must be from ahl-e-Bayte, then please provide a reference.

3) Pir [aka Hujjat]: is the same as #2 above.

Nasir Khusraw was not Supreme Hujjat [aka Pir]; however, he was one of the 12 Hujjats of Day that was given the mission to perform Da'wat in Khurasan.

I guess what I'd like to clarify is that Imam Mustawda [Trustee Imam] is not the same as Hujjat[Pir].

[nuseri]

To ShamsB:Ya Ali Madad.

Now it will a trio of' Dimag ka dahi kachumber'.

The Pir wherter from ahle bayt or appointed dai n pirs outside of it are blessed with same Noorani Hidayat of ALI within them.

The power may differ if they blessed with miracle powers as well.
I consider Dai nasir khuraw as 'pir' as well ,as 1000 years bak this word was used.

In a foundation laying ceremony.ceremony SAID Nasir khusraw was foremost among Ismaili thinkers.

There SHOULD NO be undermining of pir or dai from period n traditions,It seems to shortcoming of tret n agakhani.

Ali blesses whom he wills AND NOT necessarily from Ahle bayt.He has mentioned blessed in plural term of rasikunfillm even in Quran

I feel two between them have used rather wasted more than 8 digital pages.
IIS need their scholars to excel and think like those stalwart who wrote doctrines,etc like them.
and NOT to waste scholars time n Imam's fund to memorize and re quote them as parrot on point basis.
Their original work n not copy paste should shake the Ummah as well as civilized thinkers n readers.
See how many original thinking papers came out in Fatimid period then n see what is today.
Is ALI happy from it? I would assume it would be far from satisfied.

[nuseri]

To ShamsB:Ya Ali Madad.

Now it will a trio of' Dimag ka dahi kachumber'.

The Pir wherter from ahle bayt or appointed dai n pirs outside of it are blessed with same Noorani Hidayat of ALI within them.

The power may differ if they blessed with miracle powers as well.
I consider Dai nasir khuraw as 'pir' as well ,as 1000 years bak this word was used.

In a foundation laying ceremony.ceremony SAID Nasir khusraw was foremost among Ismaili thinkers.

There SHOULD NO be undermining of pir or dai from period n traditions,It seems to shortcoming of tret n agakhani.

Ali blesses whom he wills AND NOT necessarily from Ahle bayt.He has mentioned blessed in plural term of rasikunfillm even in Quran

I feel two between them have used rather wasted more than 8 digital pages.
IIS need their scholars to excel and think like those stalwart who wrote doctrines,etc like them.
and NOT to waste scholars time n Imam's fund to memorize and re quote them as parrot on point basis.
Their original work n not copy paste should shake the Ummah as well as civilized thinkers n readers.
See how many original thinking papers came out in Fatimid period then n see what is today.
Is ALI happy from it? I would assume it would be far from satisfied.

[tret]

Nasir Khusraw was not Supreme Hujjat [aka Pir]

Correction for typo.
Nasir Khusraw was supreme hujjat.

[Admin]

Nasir Khusraw was a great Da'i and Ismaili hero. he was also one of the greatest poets.

But his name is nowhere to be seen in the list of Satadhari Pirs (who were all Persian and Turkish) and which were approved in the Asal Dua approved by our Imams and part of many Farmans of Imam Aga Ali Shah and Aga Hassanali Shah of which we have manuscripts.

So where do you read about Nasir Khusraw being the "supreme" Hujjat,?

And just a reminder, lets all follow the thread and not get distracted.

[kmaherali]

The names of the 6 natiqs have not been mentioned in our Ginans and hence do not have a great deal of significance in our satpanth tradition.

I need to correct myself here. The names of the 6 Natiqs are mentioned in a Granth Mansamjamni which is rarely recited these days. However like the Qur'an they are not mentioned in a manner to imply their role as the only 6 lawgivers. They are mentioned amongst other prophets. The names of the Prophets mentioned in the Ginan are Adam,, Noah, Ibrahim, Ishmael, Daud, Sulaiman, Ayyub, Zakariya, Musa and Isa.

[mazhar]

Dear Friends,
I have a hard copy of Old Du'a published by Ismailia Association for Pakistan in KHOJKI, in 1950. I know khojki. In that old Du'a the words Aliyullah is used 11 times. Also at the end of Du'a, there is Kalima pak contains the words Alliyullah. Interesting thing is, at the back of cover there is a farman of MSMS printed in khojki. First I am writing Farman in khojki and then will give its meaning. Farman Mubarak," HEE DU'A ASEEY PAHNJAN HATHAN SA SUDHARI AAHEE. HEE DU'A MOUJUDA ZAMANEY JEY MUTABIK AAHEE. HEE DU'A PAKISTAN, HINDUSTAN ( BHARAT ), AFRICA JEY LAI AAHEE." Karachi, Feb18,1950.
Meaning; I have corrected " sudhari aahey " ( made changes ) in this Du'a with my hands.This Du'a is according to changing times ( zamaney jey mutabik ). This Du'a is for the jamailts of Pakistan, Hindustan (Bharat) and Africa. MSMS, Karachi Feb18, 1950. One more main change was that in old Du'a, NAAD E ALI was included where as in new Du'a it was removed.

[kmaherali]

The Ima'm is the Supreme Authority appointed directly by Allah

Do you accept this? I am sure the author doesn't mean Imam is appointed by Himself.

I think that was a way of expressing the Supreme Authority of the Imam and that he is not appointed by anyone. He may have meant that the Imam is appointed by Himself realizing of course that to say that would have caused issues within the Jamat and others (outside the Jamat).
Abually was a staunch believer and preacher of Ali Sahi Allah. So he would have meant ‘Imam appointing Himself’. According to 24:35: “Light upon Light as though no fire touched”, the implication is that Imamat is a self-appointed and self-perpetuating institution without any external influence or input.

He [the Imam] is the asa's (foundation, cause, root) and Pi'r is the na'tiq (conversant, conversationist, messenger)

I'd like to see a reference regarding this assertion.

I don’t think there is any reference but the statement is consistent with the Ginanic notion of Shah Pir. This model has been consistent for all times since creation.

Natiq is the annunciator; where is As'as is the foundation [who does the Ta'wil of the revealed message of God]. i.e. Prophet Moses received the message of God, and delivered it as Tanzil to people; where as Aron did the Ta'wil of the message, and the chain of As'as [Imams] continues until the appearance of next Natiq.

Similarly, Prophet Mohammad received the message of God, and delivered as Tanzil to people; where as Mauwla Ali does the Ta'wil of the revealed message of God [See Constitution document for reference].

I have a problem with this model. How do we consider the 124,000 prophets, Muhammad being the final prophet as per constitution? Also how do we consider the prophets prior to Hazarat Adam?I can understand as per Tusi that the Imam can assume the role of wasi according to conditions, but I find it difficult to see any consistency with the past. It is ambiguous to me. To me the constitution (which can change according to conditions) represents a onetime statement primarily for external reasons as opposed to articulating a permanent doctrine.

During the dawr of Imamate, Imams are Natiq, because Imam gives His Farameen, through the mediation of Pir [also mentioned in the history of Pirs in that link], where as Imam's Hujjat does the Ta'wil of the Farameen of the Imam. So, Imam functions as Natiq [annunciator] and Imama's Hujjat as As'as who does the Ta'wil.

In a way I agree with you. There is an expression in our tradition: ‘Imam nu bol Pir nu Farman’ meaning – ‘Imam’s command and Pirs Farman”. The Imam (Shah) issues a command (spiritually) and the Pir interprets it and makes a Farman for the murids.

PJi'r is appointed from the family of the Holy Ima'm and remains as such for life

I'd like to see a reference regarding this assertion.
This is true for Imams that must be a) from the progeny of the Prophet [Ahl-e-Bayt] b) must be appointed by the Imam. However, for the Hujjat, I haven't seen anywhere to be the case.

Abually was a staunch follower of the Ginans and he must have implied the verse of the Ginan:
ejee aal imaam kee peer karee jaanno
jethee bhav saagar tame chhutto ek jeeyo....................15

O momins: Regard the 'Peers' as the progeny of the Imaams.
It is due to the faith in this authority that you will overcome
the difficulties of crossing over the ocean of material existence.

In Isma'ilism the word [Pir] is especially used for the Ima'me' Musta'uda that is Hujjatul Ima'm, the Ima'm's trustee or deputy.

I'd like to see a reference regarding this assertion.

I think that is his opinion that Imam Mustawda and the Pir are one. Both appointed by the Imam.

Imam Mustawda [aka Trustee Imam] is not the same as Hujjat [aka Pir]. They can be the same person, but the function of Imam Mustawda and Hujjat are not the same.

Imam Mustawda : Is elected, from the Ahl-e-Bayte, by the Imam of the Time at His sole discretion in special circumstances, when the office of Imamate requires it, and only the Imam of the Time decides, to entrust the office of Imamate temporarily to the Trustee Imam. Trustee Imam [Imam Mustawda] is not needed at all Dawr of Imamate.

Hujjat of the Imam [aka Pir]: Can or can not be from the Ahl-e-Bayte. Presence of Hujjat is needed at all times. Hujjatsihp is one of the two permanent offices, the other is Imamate.

OK explain your point of view by reference to Imam Hasan. He was both Imam Mustawda and the Pir. Now in what sense was he the Imam Mustawda and in what sense was he the Pir.

[Admin]

It is not a secret that after the partition from India, our Ismaili Dua was recited differently in Pakistan from the version which was recited in the whole remaining world. Pakistan leadership was under the impression that they would get problems from other Muslims by reciting the Dua as prescribed by the Imam or any old indian words coming up in the ginans. This is a seperate subject all together and should be discussed in the appropriate Forum please.

This thread is on Quran as mentionned in the Preamble of the Ismaili Constitution

[agakhani]

I have a hard copy of Old Du'a published by Ismailia Association for Pakistan in KHOJKI, in 1950. I know khojki. In that old Du'a the words Aliyullah is used 11 times.

It might be true for Pakistan! and its not surprise any more because they have made many changes in ginans so, it is nothing new! if they have made changes in Old du'a and replace the real word "ALI SAHI ALLAH" TO "ALIULLAH" I have 4 different copies of old dua in GUJARATI published by Recreation club & Ismailia Association for India the oldest published year is 1923 in which the real word 'ALI SAHI ALLAH' has been mentioned not ALIULLAH!! period. couple weeks ago my uncles came my house he is 82 years old and still have good memory, I asked him what the real word you were using in old dua? ALI SAHI ALLAH or ALIULLAH? without hesitation he replied Ali Sahi Allah!!

[tret]

I think that was a way of expressing the Supreme Authority of the Imam and that he is not appointed by anyone.

It's fair. It's your understanding. Others may have different understanding. But the author clearly spells it out.

I don’t think there is any reference but the statement is consistent with the Ginanic notion of Shah Pir. This model has been consistent for all times since creation.

On the contrary, I find it not inline with the philosophy of creation from Ismaili perspective, as expounded by Tusi and Khusraw.

[quote"kmaherali"]
I have a problem with this model. How do we consider the 124,000 prophets, Muhammad being the final prophet as per constitution? Also how do we consider the prophets prior to Hazarat Adam?
[/quote]

fist of all -- as I said before in some other threads -- Prophet is not same as Messanger.

Prophets [espicially in this context, Natiq] are the Prophets who have revelations from God and have shariat to people. Messengers don't have revelation or Shariat and act as Guide. that's the difference between 124,000 messengers and 6 natiqs. Prophet Mohammad being the final Natiq, meaning that there won't come any other Prophets who will have any revelation from God; however the Divine guidance --as we know-- is passed on to the Imams. According to Islam, Adam was the first Natiq.

I can understand as per Tusi that the Imam can assume the role of wasi according to conditions, but I find it difficult to see any consistency with the past. It is ambiguous to me. To me the constitution (which can change according to conditions) represents a onetime statement primarily for external reasons as opposed to articulating a permanent doctrine.

What's the difficulty and inconsistency you are referring to? Pre-Adam prophecy? what else? As I said, according to Islam, Adam was the first prophet, therefore, there's no inconsistency and difficulty from Tusi and Khusraw point of view.

What's permanent doctrine? On the contrary, the Constitution actually indeed reflects the essence of our faith, should you contemplate and reflect. As to Shariat there's batini meaning, to the constitution there's the essence of the faith. That doesn't mean, it contradicts each other. i.e. Hajj has an esoteric significance. We must understand the esoteric meaning of it and not simply reject the notion of Hajj as ahl-e-zahir understands it. That's the difference.

Abually was a staunch follower of the Ginans and he must have implied the verse of the Ginan:

This is again your assumption and speculation.

OK explain your point of view by reference to Imam Hasan. He was both Imam Mustawda and the Pir. Now in what sense was he the Imam Mustawda and in what sense was he the Pir.

I will let someone like ismailignosis to comment on that.
I already explained the different role of Imam Mustawda [Trustee Imam] vs Hujjat.

Based on the Ginans and the various statements made by our 48th and 49 th Imams, according to my view of things, there are two metaphysical principles: the Essence whose functional Mazhar is the Imam – the Shah and the Divine Intellect (Will and Thought) whose functional Mazhar is the Pir or Hujjat. The Divine Intellect is the God of both the Jalali and Jamali attributes. I don't make the distinction between attributes.

So, yo completely removed Universal Soul from the equation? This is definitely not the metaphysical hierarchy according to Ismaili Dais and Pirs. Please do some more research on that. Universal Soul is the cause of the universe [matter] and all return of individual souls are to IT. You can not remove Universal soul from the picture.

If we strictly adhere to the constitution, are we to restrict our history to 1400 years? What about the continuity of the Imams even before Hazarat Ali? What about the Farman which states that our faith is based on thousands of years of history?
Surely we need a batini version within the Jamat to understand our history in its completeness.

Not at all. There's nothing in the constitution that contradicts the essence of our faith. The constitution is laid down by the Imam of the Time and it is considered as a Farmaan. No Farmaan of the Imam is contradictory to the essence of our faith. This, directly depends on one's faith and conviction to the Imam. As I said before, we need to understand the esoteric ta'wil of zahiri elements [not reject them all together].

I think that is an exception to the rule because of the status of Muhammad as the Prophet. But otherwise the Imams have always appointed the Pirs.

exception okay.

So, tell me this: According to your understanding --from abualy-- Prophet is Pir and Mauwla Ali is Imam. Also we agree that Imam appoints Pir. So, tell me, where did Mauwla Ali appointed Prophet as Pir? On the contrary, Prophet Mohammad raised Mauwla Ali to be his successor.

This is what I am trying to explain, that Prophet as [last] Natiq, appointed his [Wasi / Legatee] successor. Mauwla Ali after lifetime of the Prophet, moved to the rank of Natiq and first Manifest Imam, for the cycle of last Natiq. And this chain of Imamate shall continue till Qaim-ul-Qiyamat.

I appreciate that this has been a compromise approach to accommodate the various strands of beliefs within our Tariqah and also to respect the views of other Shia beliefs.
However we must also keep in mind that MHI has said that diversity is a strength and not weakness. Therefore as we move forward we must accept that which is beneficial and useful from all traditions.

First, it's not a comprise. Please re-read what I wrote to your reply. Ghadir-e-Khum [and Idd Ghadir] has always been significant in all Shia communities, especially Ismailis. Like I said, maybe it has not been emphasized in our khoja community before, but that doesn't change the fact.

I think we need to make the distinction between the function and the status of the Prophet and the Imam. I have no doubt that the Prophet had attained Fanna and therefore status-wise they were equal. It is a matter of how one interprets their roles in history. You are welcome to choose your approach so long as there is no compromise in the obedience to the Imam and his status as the Mazhar of the Essence.
A murid can also become Fanna but he will always call himself a murid unless of course he is appointed by the Imam to perform a role in our Tariqah.

kmaherali - You are contradicting yourself, by saying this. On some other thread, you said that anyone who attain the status of fana, becomes 'as Imam'. And you gladly give the analogy of drop joins the ocean. And you say also 'murid becomes murshid' so according to you, there's no distinction between the status of someone and the Imam, should they attain fana. Now, you are saying we need to make a distinction between Prophet and the Imam not to compromise the status? I mean, can you clarify where do you really stand? As I said before, you dont need to make things up, as you go along, because you will never know when you will contradict yourself.

There are a couple of issues with regard to the mention of the 6 Natiqs in the Qur’an. First there aren’t only 6 but about 35 of them. Secondly, they are not mentioned together in the manner which implies their exclusive status as interpreted by the Hujjats and Dais.

The issue maybe our limited understanding of the Qur'an, and not with the Qur'an.
Second, we need to understand what Natiq's function is. As I said --and this is just a repeat-- Natiq has a revelation from God and has a Shirat. All these 6 Natiqs had the revealed message of God [in the form of Book], and a shariat for people. That's the function of Natiq. Now, when you say 35, please tell us a)who they are? b)what are their revealed message of God? and their shariat?

If Qur'an was so crystle clear, today there wouldn't be divides and division amongst Islam. That's why we have the Prophet and the Imams, and Imams have their Hujjats and Dais to deliver us the true message of the Qur'an. Again, this is not my opinion, this is the teachings of our Dais and Hujjats. And the knowledge and teachings of Hujjats are the knowledge and teachings of the Imam and Imams know the truth. This is the true doctrine of Ta'lim. Having said that, you are most welcome to adhere to any ideology that you wish. After all, there's no compulsion in faith.

Also I have a problem of the implication of the role of the 6 Natiqs as the 6 phases of creation and hence restricting the creation to 6000 years only

this is the creation of 'world of faith' and not physical world. Again, this is the teachings of our own Hujjats and Dais, from Islamic & Ismaili perspective. You are most welcome to adhere to it, or reject it. And we can simply throw it into our bucket of "let's agree to disagree", which maybe full by now.

“All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost.”

Tell me, where is the contradiction of the notion of 6 Natiq with what the Imam says?

In fact, Nasir Khusraw in his Wajh-e-Din explains this [same concept that MSMS explained] as well. Nasir Khusraw says similarly that every nation has a "Qur'an". To christians the bible is their Qur'an. To jews torah is their Qur'an. Similarity hindus and budists have their own Qur'an and they shall be judged according to their book. [These are not apparently the same words, I am simply paraphrasing it and putting it in my own words]. This implies that in every corner of the world, each nation or community had their sages and Divinely inspired messengers. The essence of all religions and faiths, whether Islam, Christians, Jew, Hindus, etc. are ONE, it's their shariats/way of practising that differ.

Look what our Hujjats and Dais and Imams teach us not to be exclusive and truth can be found in other religions; but look at us, we are not even ready to accept what's in our very own Qur'an. Are we following what Imam teaches us, by rejecting the message of Qur'an? I mean if we have questions, that's perfectly okay. And we must seek answers to them. But, rejecting the teachings of Qur'an and Imam altogether, is not correct.

[ShamsB]

Nasir Khusraw was not Supreme Hujjat [aka Pir]

Correction for typo.
Nasir Khusraw was supreme hujjat.

He was a Hujjat yes - but not the Supreme one - there were other hujjats - kmaherali will have a list of those handy - i don't.

Just like you can not say one Imam is superior to the others - you can't define a Hujjat as supreme over the others.

Shams

[tret]

Just like you can not say one Imam is superior to the others - you can't define a Hujjat as supreme over the others.

Shams

That's exactly my point. But, that's not the point anyway, to prove or dis-prove if Khusraw was a Supreme Hujjat or not. the point I was making was to distinction the role/function of Imam Mustawda vs [Supreme]Hujjat aka Pir.

[ShamsB]

Just like you can not say one Imam is superior to the others - you can't define a Hujjat as supreme over the others.

Shams

That's exactly my point. But, that's not the point anyway, to prove or dis-prove if Khusraw was a Supreme Hujjat or not. the point I was making was to distinction the role/function of Imam Mustawda vs [Supreme]Hujjat aka Pir.

that's where we disagree - to me an Imam Mustawda is a PIR - i.e. a living PIR - individuals from the Ahl-e-Bayt who were given the Titles/Status of a PIR during their lifetimes.
There are other individuals that are also accorded the titles of Pir Posthumously - Varas Ismail Gangji, Hassan Bin Sabah, Pir Sabzali - all fall into that Category - are you saying that they weren't of equal status to Nasir -e- Khusraw?

I think what you are stating is a cultural difference in the use of the word PIR.

During his lifetime - Nasir Khusraw was never bestowed with the title of the PIR - unlike the 50 PIRS we say we have had as part of our Faith - and all of them are Ahl-e-Bayt.

We can agree to disagree - because you are looking at this from your tradition and cultural lens.

And to me a Hujjat does not equal to what I would or the other Indo Sub Pak Ismailies would consider a PIR.

To us a PIR is an Imam Mustawda - now you may refer to the Hujjat as the Pir - but that is a cultural nuance not a theological one - in the theological sense as you've stated;
An Imam Mustawda and a Hujjat aren't the same - thus a Pir in the central asian context is not equal to a Pir in the IndoSubPak context.

It is like calling a ground floor and then a 1st floor and a 2nd floor in England and Africa and India - but in the US and Canada it is 1st/Ground and then 2nd floor.

Shams

[tret]

Shams,

I can see that we have disagreement; however, I thought I made it clear as far as the usage of PIR vs [Supreme] Hujjat is concern. Again, I repeat I don't want to prove or disprove the status of Nasir-e-Khusraw as Supreme Hujjat[PIR]; I just wanted to clarify [and I can see there's disagreement] the status of Imam Mustawda [Trustee Imam] vs Supreme Hujjat [PIR].

Please research the literal meaning of Mustawda [Trustee], and what its meaning implies.

First, I think we both agree that Supreme Hujjat [in pre-khoja tradition] is equal to PIR [in khoja tradition]. I understand that in Persian terminology PIR could mean differently in different context; however, [from an ismaili perspective] in Persian terminology it still means [Supreme] Hujjat. And I think the context that we are discussing is clear.

I stated the difference between Imam Mustawda vs Supreme Hujjat[PIR]. We can agree to disagree here. I know, your references is coming from Abualy, but I am not sure where is Abualy's references are coming from?

I'd like very much ismailignosis to chime in here and provide some further details and historical context of Imam Mustawda vs Office of Hujjatship, which is a permanent office.

[Admin]

This thread ia on:

quran as mentioned in preamble

Not on Pir and Hujjat. All Pir and Hujjat discussion should be directed to appropriate thread. If you do not find one, please open one but do not mix-up all the subjects here.

[ShamsB]

Shams,

I can see that we have disagreement; however, I thought I made it clear as far as the usage of PIR vs [Supreme] Hujjat is concern. Again, I repeat I don't want to prove or disprove the status of Nasir-e-Khusraw as Supreme Hujjat[PIR]; I just wanted to clarify [and I can see there's disagreement] the status of Imam Mustawda [Trustee Imam] vs Supreme Hujjat [PIR].

Please research the literal meaning of Mustawda [Trustee], and what its meaning implies.

First, I think we both agree that Supreme Hujjat [in pre-khoja tradition] is equal to PIR [in khoja tradition]. I understand that in Persian terminology PIR could mean differently in different context; however, [from an ismaili perspective] in Persian terminology it still means [Supreme] Hujjat. And I think the context that we are discussing is clear.

I stated the difference between Imam Mustawda vs Supreme Hujjat[PIR]. We can agree to disagree here. I know, your references is coming from Abualy, but I am not sure where is Abualy's references are coming from?

I'd like very much ismailignosis to chime in here and provide some further details and historical context of Imam Mustawda vs Office of Hujjatship, which is a permanent office.

We don't agree on the status of a Hujjat equaling a pir (imam mustawda) - 2 different things.

There were other hujjats alongsides imam mustawdas in Ismailism.

Imam Mustawda along with Imam Mustaqar and the Hujjat is a permenant office and all 3 of them are held by the Imam at this time.

As for references - Tusi talks about this in Paradise of Submission;
There is another text in Persian - and I forget the name of it - translated by Ivanow - where the roles of heirarchy are broken down.

Keep in mind - i am not disputing the status of Nasir Khusraw as the Hujjat - i am disputing the notion that he was Supreme over any other Hujjat - and that a Hujjat is equal to an Imam Mustawda - as they are two different levels of heirarchies.

One can use the title of Pir (Elder or teacher) for Nasir Khusraw but that doesn't make him the Imam Mustawda or what is considered Pir in the Satpanthi tradition.
This is where the beauty of plurality comes into play - you can call him Pir and we'll be okay with it..just understand that we can't accord him the same status as the Prophet who was our First PIR or Imam Hassan (FYI - the misnomer that Hassan was the IMAM prior to Hussein comes from the use of this term - Hassan was the Imam Mustawda whilst Hussein was Imam Mustaqarr).

Instead of trying to prove your point over and over and over and over again - maybe this is where you say - the beauty of islam and ismailism is that we both can look it our way - and it is okay either way.

Shams

[agakhani]

Mazhar,

I asked my Arabic scholar friend about the real meaning of the word
"ALIULLAH" according him there are two words in this word Aliullah!;
The word 'Aliyun' and 'Allah'!!
The Aliyun means 'THE ALI" and "Allah means the ALLAH - 'THE GOD" hence the phrase Aliyullah means 'THE ALI, THE GOD"
So, in my opinion Isamilis are still praying the same meaning as they used to pray in their old dua i.e. Ali Sahi Allah.

[ShamsB]

Mazhar,

I asked my Arabic scholar friend about the real meaning of the word
"ALIULLAH" according him there are two words in this word Aliullah!;
The word 'Aliyun' and 'Allah'!!
The Aliyun means 'THE ALI" and "Allah means the ALLAH - 'THE GOD" hence the phrase Aliyullah means 'THE ALI, THE GOD"
So, in my opinion Isamilis are still praying the same meaning as they used to pray in their old dua i.e. Ali Sahi Allah.

Well stated.

Shams