if the above is true, then there were two set of collections of Quran.
(a) Collection which Prophet ensured that "wahis" to him were written down by sahabas (according to the hadith you provided)
(b) Collection by Zaid bin Thabit from the umma.
now my questions are
1. what was the source of the standardized compiled Quran (a) ? or (b) ?
2. were both the collections were destroyed after compilation of the Quran ?
The standard quran is that which zaid bhai collected...Allow me to elaborate. As I said in my previous post, during the time of H.abu bakr they had few wars in which most of the shahabas who wrote down the scripture and memorized it died...Hence H.abu bakr gave the job of compiling the holy scripture to zaid bhai ...Sahabas may have died but not their work...so whichever material they wrote on was collected by this zaid bhai along with 3 others who finally finished the task and handed over the document to abu bakr. I also wanna let you know that zaid bhai himself was a writer[scripture] and thats the reason why H.Abu bakr may have felt that this is the guy who can help him compile the scripture.
Also there were not enough A's at the time when B was busy compiling the quran but those who were alive, helped him assemble the scripture...So the source was A [sahabas and zaid himself]...but their job was finished by B [zaid bhai who collected everything]
Coming to your 2nd question....Interesting question again !!
I think so yeh thats what happened....After zaid bhai did his job and when H.Uthman became caliph and when this problem arised...H.Uthman ordered zaid bhai along with 3 other qurayshis to make sure that at any point if they do not agree with what zaid bhai is saying...then try to simplify it in their own language.
Interestingly if you read hadith of bukhari it is said that after its compilation was done...zaid bhai all of a sudden realized that there was one verse that he forgot to add in the book, so he informed H.Uthman who ordered them to find it before they put anything in the quran and luckily it seems the verse that zaid bhai thought he missed was found at some other guys scrolls and later put into holy quran.
Again the question arises and that is....When H.Abu bakr received all the documents from zaid bhai...Did he read it ???....If he memorized the whole quran as some say along with H.Umar and his daughter... then why is it that they did not realize that there was a verse missing in one of the surah ??? Did this happen because of human error or did they actually memorized the holy quran ??
What do you think ???
whole process from collection of Quran during Abu Bakar's time to the compilation of the collected Quran during Uthaman's time and then destroy the collections (the very source of the compilation) seems fishy to me.
Besides whats was the point all this above if at all the Prophet already had sahabas written down "wahis" as soon as he gets it in chronological order.
somewhere something is wrong.
Previously you had asked me whether "does it matter if the Quran is not in Chronological order ?"
yes it does matter for the reasons stated below
1. chances are great of misinterpreting the message
2. It challenges the authenticity of the compilation.
why the compilers failed to arrange in chronological order ?.....
obviously many had memorized the Quran uttered by the Prophet hence knew the order it was revealed, and furthermore as your hadith says it was already written down during the lifetime of the Prophet.
I think, Usmani Mashaf compiled during the Khilafa of Usman can’t be 100% replica of the words uttered by Muhammad.
But then we have fantastic coincidences in this book about seven heavens being repeated seven times, yawm being repeated 365 times in singular form, dunya and akhira each being repeated 115 times, iman and kufr each being repeated 25 times, paradise and hell each being repeated 77 times, "wine" (khamr) and "intoxication" (saqara) each being repeated 6 times.
I think, Usmani Mashaf compiled during the Khilafa of Usman can’t be 100% replica of the words uttered by Muhammad.
That is absolutely right nobody can utter same sentences or lengthily words after someone speak some sentences and request some one to repeat what he uttered! don't you believe it? then try it for your self you can not either so, in my opinion you are right Quran is not 100% replica or it is same as it was revealed first time on Prophet Mohammed PBUH).
whole process from collection of Quran during Abu Bakar's time to the compilation of the collected Quran during Uthaman's time and then destroy the collections (the very source of the compilation) seems fishy to me.
But I personally think it would have been even more complicated if we had various alterations in the verses...Like if quran was not compiled [whatever the scenario was]...We would have had over 700+sects in islam, each one claiming to have real interpreation of verses...Hence I think thats the very reason why the collections were destroyed...But again brother this is just my opinion.
Besides whats was the point all this above if at all the Prophet already had sahabas written down "wahis" as soon as he gets it in chronological order.
somewhere something is wrong.
I agree with you brother but again all we could do is guess...Why did rasool[saw] during his last sermon called on people to obey two things ...the book of god and his pure family ??...If there was no book ever compiled during his lifetime, how did he mention the book of god ??...Where was it during that sermon ??
Previously you had asked me whether "does it matter if the Quran is not in Chronological order ?"
yes it does matter for the reasons stated below
1. chances are great of misinterpreting the message
2. It challenges the authenticity of the compilation.
why the compilers failed to arrange in chronological order ?.....
We do have a very genuine reason for this....When H.Abu bakr took of the caliphate they had 2 major wars in which most of the sahabas died....Only and only after this H.Abu bakr called on zaid bhai to look for the verses written down by sahabas.
Before those wars nobody even cared to compile the book because whenever they got stuck somewhere they used to go to sahabas for clarification...But moving forward after their demise zaid bhai who himself was a writer collected everything he could from where ever he can and gave all the documents to H.Abu Bakr.
Please note that all this while zaid bhai collected these document on his own...Only and only after H.Uthman became caliph he ordered zaid bhai along with 3 members of quraysh to sit down together and try to arrange every single verse...But this time who knows how many more sahabas died ???
obviously many had memorized the Quran uttered by the Prophet hence knew the order it was revealed, and furthermore as your hadith says it was already written down during the lifetime of the Prophet.
Yes it was but as I said @ above many sahabas perished in those wars and zaid bhai [as we know now] was not well versed with quran and this is the main reason why quran is not chronological in order.
I think, Usmani Mashaf compiled during the Khilafa of Usman can’t be 100% replica of the words uttered by Muhammad.
You're right it may or may not be....but if it is altered...I said altered and not chronologically set...then what are those verses ??...Do you know any surah that you think has been manipulated ??
But then we have fantastic coincidences in this book about seven heavens being repeated seven times, yawm being repeated 365 times in singular form, dunya and akhira each being repeated 115 times, iman and kufr each being repeated 25 times, paradise and hell each being repeated 77 times, "wine" (khamr) and "intoxication" (saqara) each being repeated 6 times.
so in conclusion, i dont know what to think.
We have a living imam who can clear this confusion, what do you think ??
From: Zina Khan -
SUNNI Imams - Sahabas - Scholars are saying that Uthman's TEXT is Variant !
It is a fact that Shii Islam is indeed based on The Quran....NOT SUNNI sect as Sunnis splintered from the Mainstream Islam of Muhamad (saw) and have gone astray.....so all I am doing is showing you the evidence from your own Books and which you are unwilling to accept.....so is it my fault? I am not authoring the books of the Sunnis.....I have already provided ample evidence in regards to the following and if need be will be more than happy to repeat....so that the deaf, dumb and the blind "mosquitoes" like you can put on their bi-foculs and read again....
a) Sunni reports about mistakes & changes in Quran -
evidence has been provided and can be provided again.....so let me know !
b)Sunni reports about additions in Quran
c)Corruption in the Quran according to Ahle Sunnah Ulema
Now YOUR logic is fallacious :
1. The claim that memorization preserved the Qur'an is false due to the fact that a great number of the reciters (hafiz) were slain at the battle of al-Yamama, taking those parts of the Qur'an that they alone had memorized to the grave with them, never to be recited again.
It was these same reciters i.e., Masud, Kabb etc., who were writing down codices from memory which led to contradictions, additions, omissions and to thousands of variant readings among the competing texts.
This demonstrates the faulty memories of the reciters, according to the reporting of Imaam Maalik ibn Anas, in his "Mu'atta", and as reported by none other then Umar ibn al-Khattaab ...Imaam Suyuti, in his "Al-Ittiqaan fi `uloom al-Qur'an" has also narrated similar misgivings.
`Umar reportedly said, 'Let none of you say, "I have got the whole of the Qur'an."
How does he know what all of it is?
Umar said..."MUCH OF THE QUR'AN HAS GONE" [d h b]. Let him say instead,
"..I HAVE GOT WHAT HAS SURVIVED"."' (. p. 117, Jalal al Din `Abdul Rahman b. abi Bakr al Suyuti, "al Itqan fi `ulum al Qur'an", Halabi, Cairo, 1935/1354, pt 2, p. 25)
Abi Dawud notes:
In Kitab Al-Masahif, Ibn Abi Dawud quotes Salim bin Abdullah as saying:
We must ask who gave Marwan the authority to dare destroy an official, original copy of the Book of Allah, a copy written under the authority of Abu Bakr Siddiq, who was also the caliph ?
Further, if there was nothing missing in the transmission of the text then why was he afraid that the people would be suspicious of it?
According to Hamida bint Abi Yunus:
Reading from the codex of Aisha says:
According to Hudhaifa, Muslims read only a quarter of Sura al-Tawba (9) i.e., meaning a great number of its verses are missing. (Ibid., p. 64 citing al-Mustadrak)
Ubayy b. Kabb included two extra surahs, al-Hafd (the Haste) and al-Khal (the Separation) that were not included in the Uthmanic text.
These surahs were also included in the texts of Ibn Abbas and Abu Musa. ( citing al-Suyuti’s al-Itqan, pp. 152-153)
This fact is confirmed by al-Razi, al-Tabari and Ibn Hajar. (True Guidance, p. 58- citing Ibn Hajar, al-Tabari, al-Suyuti’s Itqan chapter on compilation)
There is also evidence in Bukhari, Riqaq 10; Zuhd 27; al-Tirmidi, al-Darimi Riqaq 62; and Ahmad Bin Hanbal, 111, 122, 176; iv. 368; v. 117; vi. 55)
Aisha relates that, Ten verses were revealed concerning a foster relationship.
These were annulled and replaced by another five verses..so check your books !
Muhammad Murtada al-Kashi's (d. ca. 1505 A.D.) commentary on surah 5:67:
"Announce what has reached you": that is, concerning Ali.
[Hide Quoted Text]
According to the tradition of the authorities on doctrine, this verse was actually revealed in this (extended) form [that is, including "concerning Ali"].
"For if you do not ...": If you discontinue the delivery of what has been sent down to you concerning Ali's guardianship (over the believers) and you keep this secret, then it is as if you delivered none of the message of the Lord concerning that which requires reconciliation.
Some also read: "His message concerning the confession of the unity of God. ..."
"God does not guide those who do not believe":
(it is clear...Allah had Vested the Knowledge and Authority in Ali Imran Abu Taleb...)....
In the Collections (of al-Tabarsi) it is said on the authority of Ibn Abbas and Jabir ibn Abdullah that God commanded His Prophet to place Ali before men and to (publicly) inform them of his guardianship (over them). ..it re inforces 36:12...the mere fact it is in your own Du'a approved by the Imam of the time and age...should be sufficient proof....
The late great Egyptian Professor, Dr. Taha Hussein, summarizes the atrocity of Uthmanâ's actions...and so why blame others pal if you choose to remain biased and self serving ?
On the contrary, the evidence points to much more than simple dialectal variation, but to gross omissions of entire surahs, verses and lengths of chapters.
Now we shall examine some of the variants of Uthman's Codex
2:24 in the 'Uthmanic text reads as follows:
Why, God is not ashamed to set forth a parable of a gnat, or anything beyond; and as for those who believe, they know that it is truth from the Lord; but as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What is it that God means by this parable?" He leads astray by it many and He guides by it many; -- but he leads astray only the evildoers.
In Ibn Mas'ud's Codex the last part of the verse reads this:
By it (i.e. the parable) many are misguided and many are guided aright by it, and by it only the evildoers go astray.
The variance aims at avoiding a pre destinatrian position because with consciousness, historical wrongs, would not attribute those wrongs to a divine plan in any way and therefore stressed freedom of human will and human responsibility.
Perhaps a similar desire to see human responsibility stressed is behind the variant in this Codex for a phrase in 2:34 relating to the story of Adam's creation: The 'Uthmanic text reads thus:
And we said, "O Adam dwell, thou and thy wife, in paradise, and eat therefrom amply as you wish; but do not draw near this tree or ye will be of the transgressors." And Satan made them backslide therefrom and drove them out from what they were in ...
The Codex of Ibn Mas'ud has the phrase (And Satan suggested evil to them) instead of (And Satan made them slip).
The latter reading of course alleviates the burden of responsibility from Adam and Eve whereas the former reading leaves room for their responsibility.
In the 'Uthmanic text 2:42-43 reads as follows:
Seek aid with patience and prayer, though it is a hard thing save for the humble, who think that they will meet their Lord, and that to him will they return.
The Codex of Ibn Mas'ud reads (who know that they will meet their Lord instead of
The reading of the Codex makes the verse more rational any way, though in this particular matter .
The Codex of Ibn Mas'ud has the following variants in 2:192:
instead of .
instead of . The Codex also offers in place of .
In the 'Uthmanic text, 5:71 reads as follows:
O thou Apostle! preach what has been revealed to thee from thy Lord; if thou do it not thou hast not preached his message, and God will not hold thee free from men, for God guides not people who misbelieve.
The Codex of Ibn Mas'ud reads thus:
O thou apostle! preach what has been revealed to thee from thy Lord; Verily 'Ali is the Mawla (friend, master, helper) of the believers. ...
The next important variant of interest to our present discussion is in 11:118. The text of the 'Uthmanic redaction is this:
." That variant is "-- ," which literally means "guarding oneself fearfully," but as a synonym for may also be rendered as piety. .. the word taqiyya has assumed very special meanings.
There are passages in the Qur'an that explicitly support the idea of Concealment, though neither the word taqiyya itself nor any other derivative of occurs in those passages. These passages are:
Whoso disbelieves in God after having believed, unless it be one who is forced and whose heart is quiet in the faith, -- but whoso expands his breast to misbelieve, -- on them is wrath from God, and for them is mighty woe! 16:108.
Those who believe shall not take misbelievers for their patrons, rather than believers, and he who does this has no part with God at all, unless, indeed, ye fear some danger from them. But God bids you beware of Himself, for unto him your journey is. 3:27.
Today is perfected for you your religion, and fulfilled upon you is my favour, and I am pleased for you to have Islam for a religion. But he who is forced by hunger, not inclined wilfully to sin, verily, God is forgiving, compassionate. 5:3 13
What ails you that ye do not eat from what God's name is pronounced over, when He has detailed to you what is unlawful for you? Save what ye are forced to; but, verily, many will lead you astray by their fancies, without knowledge. Verily, thy Lord knows best the transgressors. 6:119.
These passages explicitly provide latitude for all Muslims, Sunni as well as Shi'a.
There is one particular passage which contains a derivative of the root and is found in Shi'a literature as scriptural support of their idea of Taqiyya. That is 49:13:
Verily the most honourable of you in the sight of God is the most pious among you; verily, God is knowing, aware!
The Shi'a arbitrarily interpret the phrase here to mean "he among you who exercises Taqiyya most." This is an obvious stretching of the meaning for, in conformity with the use of derivatives of in the rest of the Qur'an, here means "he among you who most guards himself fearfully against divine punishment." See pp. 181-193 of God of Justice, (Brill, 1960) .
The readers will benefit by looking at the article on "Taqiyya" in the first edition of the Encyclopaedia of Islam.
24:35 in 'Uthman's redaction begins thus:
God is the light of the heavens and the earth; His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, ...
The reading attributed to Ibn Mas'ud is as follows:
God is the light of the heavens and the earth; the semblance of the light of one who believes in Him and loves the People of the House of His Prophet is as a niche in which is a lamp, ...
'Uthman's redaction 25:1 reads as follows:
Blessed be He who sent down the Discrimination to His servant that he might be unto the world a warner; ...
The Codex of Ibn Mas'ud has the following reading instead:
Blessed be He who sent down the Discrimination on His Prophet and the People of His House from among his descendants who have inherited after him the knowledge of the Book, that they might be unto the world a warner.
For 26:215, the Codex of Ibn Mas'ud has a reading which it shares with the Codex of 'Ali. We have already indicated that reading on p. 212 of the July 1961 issue of The Muslim World.
33:25 in the 'Uthmanic text is as follows:
And God drove back the misbelievers in their rage; they gave no advantage; God was enough for the believers in the fight, for God is strong, mighty.
The Codex of Ibn Mas'ud has the following reading for the second half of the verse:
God was enough for the believers in the fight in support of 'Ali ibn abi Talib, for God is strong, mighty.
The 'Uthmanic version has the following text for 33:33
And stay still in your houses and show not yourselves with the ostentation of the ignorance of yore; and be steadfast in prayer, and give alms, and obey God and His Apostle; - God only wishes to take away from you the horror O People of the House and to purify you thoroughly.
The Codex of Ibn Mas'ud has the following reading for the last portion of the verse: -
God only wishes to take away the horror from the People of the House of His Prophet for they did not worship idols, and to purify them thoroughly.
We have commented on this verse already on p. 94 of the April 1961 issue of The Muslim World.
33:56 in the 'Uthmanic redaction reads as follows:
Verily, God and His angels send benediction on the Prophet. O ye who believe! pray for him and salute him with a salutation.
The Codex of Ibn Mas'ud gives the following version:
Verily, God and His angels unite 'Ali with the Prophet. O ye who believe! send blessings upon the two of them as God sends blessings upon the two of them, and salute them with a salutation.
In 'Uthman's version 56:10 is a brief verse
And the foremost will be foremost.
The Codex of Ibn Mas'ud has a long version in its place:
And the foremost in belief in the Prophet are 'Ali and his descendants whom God chose from among the Prophet's Companions and made guardians over others. They are the victorious ones who will inherit the Paradise; in it they will abide forever.
59:7 in 'Uthman's version is as follows:
What God gave as spoils to His Apostle of the people of the cities is God's, and the Apostle's, and for kinsfolk, orphans, and the poor, and the wayfarer, so that it should not be circulated amongst the rich men of you.
And what the Apostle gives you, take; and what he forbids you, desist from; and fear God, verily, God is strong in punishing.
The Codex of Ibn Mas'ud has the following words from the word onward:
... so that there be no opposition from your chiefs to the love of the People of the House among you. And whatever he tells you to do obey him and fear God in your opposition, for God is strong in punishing.
97:4 in "Uthman's redaction is as follows:
The angels and the Spirit descend therein,15 by the permission of their Lord with every bidding.
The reading of Ibn Mas'ud is reported as follows:
The angels and the Spirit descend therein from their Lord upon Muhammad and the descendants of Muhammad, with every bidding.
Readers are referred to the text of Surah al-Walayat (sic), The article contains an English rendering of that surah as well as of a longer surah, also of Shi'a origin, namely, Surah al-Nurayn.
The facsimile mentioned, as well as the texts from which the translations are based, is taken from a manuscript of the Bankipur Library in India.
1. The claim that memorization preserved the Qur'an is false due to the fact that a great number of the reciters (hafiz) were slain at the battle of al-Yamama, taking those parts of the Qur'an that they alone had memorized to the grave with them, never to be recited again.
I agree with zina khan on this one...It's a fact and she is spot on !!!
But honestly I dunno whether these sahabas only memorized it or wrote it somewhere so that the future generation shouldnt be divided.
But historically zina khan is right
Muhammad Murtada al-Kashi's (d. ca. 1505 A.D.) commentary on surah 5:67:
"Announce what has reached you": that is, concerning Ali.
[Hide Quoted Text]
According to the tradition of the authorities on doctrine, this verse was actually revealed in this (extended) form [that is, including "concerning Ali"].
"For if you do not ...": If you discontinue the delivery of what has been sent down to you concerning Ali's guardianship (over the believers) and you keep this secret, then it is as if you delivered none of the message of the Lord concerning that which requires reconciliation.
I think that's the reason why during on his death bed our rasool[saw] asked for pen and paper to write so that the ummah won't go astray but unfortunately the sahabas chose to ignore what rasool[saw] was to say.
I personally think thats what rasool[saw] wanted to write down so that people who hold on to imamat would never go astray.
But my only question is after the demise of rasool[saw] why din't Imam Ali[as] who was held in high regards did not openly claimed to be imam who is meant to be obeyed ???
Why did he[as] made peace with muwaiyah when he[as] knew that muwaiyah cannot be trusted ??
Also I wanna know whether this is same Ibn Masud who had only 111 surahs in his quran [as compared to 114] ?? And also I think both the quran i.e the one of zaid bhai's and this Ibn Masud had few differences like in Abi Daud's "Kitaab Al-Masahif" in surah Al-Baqarah alone there are over 100 differences/variations
Surah 2:275 begins with the words Allathiina yaakuluunar-ribaa laa yaquumuuna - "those who devour usury will not stand". Ibn Mas'ud's text had the same introduction but after the last word there was added the expression yawmal qiyaamati, that is, they would not be able to stand on the "Day of Resurrection".
We dont know whether Ibn Masud bhai had a personal quran of his own. But again if it was just a personal notebook as some claim, why then H.Uthman ordered it to be burned along with all other books and what not ?? I think Ibn Masud bhai even objected when H.Uthman ordered his copy to be burned....what was soooo special about that notebook which Ibn Masud wanted to save for future generations ???
Sister zina khan has raise a very valid point here...Ibn Masud was one of the best teacher of quran so then why would H.Uthman burned his writings ??...Why did zaid bhai ignored the writings of Ibn Masud ??...Was it just because it was different than what zaid bhai made ?? Or there is something else to it ??
I also did some research and found out that Ibn Masud bhai left surah 1,114 and 113 ...He believed that these were not actually surahs but prayers for muslims by allah[swt] to benefit them
But again the fact that H. Uthman ordered quran to be written in the Quraysh dialects since he presumed that the Quran was revealed in that language (in particular) indicates that dialects certainly had effected the Quran.
But it also reveals that he was not a hafiz [nor was H.Umar or H.Abu Bakr]
Just like a_27826, even I dunno what to believe now ??
what was soooo special about that notebook which Ibn Masud wanted to save for future generations ???
nobody likes their many years of "work" to be burned.
just imagine you have spent years in a university making notes of the professor's lectures and suddenly you are told to hand over all your notes to be burnt.
He was well respected for his knowledge of Quran hence was less docile than the others by the Uthman's order of destroying writings.
In fact even Hafsa refused her Quran to be burned...it was burnt after she passed away during Muawia's Caliphate
Why did zaid bhai ignored the writings of Ibn Masud ??...Was it just because it was different than what zaid bhai made ?? Or there is something else to it ??
maybe he may have ignored some of his writings.
just imagine you are given task to collect all the notes from the students and compile it it one standard book. would that book be 100% replica of the professor's lectures/words ?
maybe Zaid compared various verses. i.e. a verse with many variants he might have chosen a variant which was more popular.
We dont know whether Ibn Masud bhai had a personal quran of his own. But again if it was just a personal notebook as some claim, why then H.Uthman ordered it to be burned along with all other books and what not ??
maybe he dint want muslim's to have like what Christians have.
Quran according to Masud
Quran according to Kabb
and so on
and so now we have Quran according to Uthman only and best of all we can call it simply "Quran" instead of "quran according to Uthman" since Quran according to others are already destroyed.
In my first posting on this topic,.I said the debate would be mostly futile n non conclusive.
I wish to have debate n reasoning on
WHY IS QURAN NEEDED in todays time?
I will give my observation as an educated rationalist.
As For Ismailis they are blessed with Imam of the Time n their Farmans.
If anybody see the size of the book n number pages in it
.An Interested n active reader reader can finish reading n understand in may be 30 days time.
at Zahiri level The Quran is a narration of civilization from Adam to the prophet time (pbuh).,which the main narration that may be few thousand before as we know n those time of 1450 years back.
It say about God's grace,warning n wrath during those period. WHAT IS IN IT FOR TODAY?
Most narration are of civilazation n period 5000 years to 1450 year BACK from today.
Which University is using ages old syllabus to teach student of today?
Even in today time except the subject of history n grammer, the syllabus changes with the time.
If there is no Baatin ,then it looks like a book of the past.
The result is seen on people who have followed it in totality.
There is Farman that says 'UNDERSTANDING OF QURAN" can take years.
It surely means Baatin understanding,because zahiri understanding of the narration can be a month job.
As an educated person Looking at the sad status of people (Shariati) who follow it in totality as a book 1450 years old.
Science n humanity does answers many reasoning n questions of today?
My simple question is' WHY IS QURAN NEEDED?' in todays time.( whether complete or not?)
My simple question is' WHY IS QURAN NEEDED?' in todays time.( whether complete or not?)
Few months ago, I came across this story and I think now is the right time to share this with you ....
An old Muslim man lived on a farm in the mountains of eastern Kentucky with his young grandson. Each morning Grandpa was up early sitting at the kitchen table reading his Quran. His grandson wanted to be just like him and tried to imitate him in every way he could.
One day the grandson asked, “Grandpa! I try to read the Quran just like you but I don’t understand it, and what I do understand I forget as soon as I close the book. What good does reading the Qur’an do?”
The Grandfather quietly turned from putting coal in the stove and replied, “Take this coal basket down to the river and bring me back a basket of water. The boy did as he was told, but all the water leaked out before he got back to the house. The grandfather laughed and said, “You’ll have to move a little faster next time,” and sent him back to the river with the basket to try again.
This time the boy ran faster, but again the basket was empty before he returned home. Out of breath, he told his grandfather that it was impossible to carry water in a basket, and he went to get a bucket instead.
The old man said, “I don’t want a bucket of water; I want a basket of water. You’re just not trying hard enough,” and he went out the door to watch the boy try in.
At this point, the boy knew it was impossible, but he wanted to show his grandfather that even if he ran as fast as he could, the water would leak out before he got back to the house. The boy again dipped the basket into river and ran hard, but when he reached his grandfather the basket was again empty. Out of breath, he said, “See Grandpa, it’s useless!”
“So you think it is useless?” The old man said, “Look at the basket.”
The boy looked at the basket and for the first time realized that the basket was different. It had been transformed from a dirty old coal basket and was now clean, inside and out.
MORAL OF THE STORY
That’s what happens when you read the Qur’an. You might not understand or remember everything, but when you read it, you will be changed, inside and out. That is the work of Allah in our lives.”
A primary level moral story an American based one may be on different 'book', which may be taken as Quran for this posting to prove a point.It is good,But a solid reasoning would be better.
nuseri wrote:
My simple question is' WHY IS QURAN NEEDED?' in todays time.( whether complete or not?)
The Book Of Allah is and was always present. It was present even during the time of the Prophet.
The world cannot exist without Him.
One has to recognize Him.
036:012 Surely it is We who bring the dead to life and write down what they have forwarded and what they have left behind; everything We have numbered in manifest Imam.
One such question would be how do you turn toward Qaba when your residence is on Alpha Centauris?
Doesnt it say in the very same quran that one should not look left or right but have faith and belief in one god ???
I think its the very same verse that most of the ismailis use as a cover
And plus I personally don't know when we[humans] will have our residence on alpha centauris but I do know that the govt of USA wants people [around the world] to sign up for their mission of sending humans to mars by 2018-2020....WHY DON'T YOU ENROLL IN THAT PROGRAM ??
One such question would be how do you turn toward Qaba when your residence is on Alpha Centauris?
Doesnt it say in the very same quran that one should not look left or right but have faith and belief in one god ???
I think its the very same verse that most of the ismailis use as a cover
And plus I personally don't know when we[humans] will have our residence on alpha centauris but I do know that the govt of USA wants people [around the world] to sign up for their mission of sending humans to mars by 2018-2020....WHY DON'T YOU ENROLL IN THAT PROGRAM ??
From moonsighting.com
Question: How a person would find Qibla direction from another planet or from space?
Answer: From another planet or in space, one would face a line in space that goes exactly above Ka'bah (This line is the one that connects Ka'bah to Bait-ul-Ma'moor in the heavens). By 3-D trigonometry, it can be calculated from any point in space, how to face such a line. Even on earth we face the same line, not the ka'bah itself.
Piety does not consist in whether you face east or west during worship. True piety consists in this: believing in God and in his final judgement; believing in his angels, in the Book, and in the prophets; giving your wealth, for the sake of God, to your relatives, to orphans, to the needy, to wayfarers and to strangers; ransoming slaves; attending prayers and paying the poor-rate; being true to your promises; and being steadfast in times of distress, adversity and war. Those who show true piety, are genuine in their faith; they honour God.
-Qur'an, Al-Baqara, Surah 2:177
So as per the Quran - piety isn't about facing east or west - but having the faith.
Conviction over convenience.
Or to quote a song.
"Zahid Sharab peene De Masjid main baith kar - yah woh jagah batade jahan par khuda na ho!"
At Zahiri level ,be it any topic mostly jokes circulate around.At Baatin level the essence n presence of GOD is felt.
For example a compulsive rationalist critic would find in Kentucky bourbon
shot story.
a. Either father n son were ignorant that basket was leaking.
B. Smarter way was to wash the basket at the river itself.
c. It was stupid to carry the weight of the water ,till it get drained out.
d.Moral of many things are on the net of sayings n story of saints n saga.
The opinion of a rationalist that both father n son were fool or stupid
to devise a way to clean the basket,looks like the father must been fond of Kentucky shots and reading some book on amusing leg pulling/paining ideas.
The moral over here that any non Ismaili, a clever one can take out flaws even if it is on there to make most serious posting a joke and an annoying one.
(2:177) Righteousness does not consist in turning your faces towards the east or towards the west;175 true righteousness consists in believing in Allah and the Last Day, the angels, the Book and the Prophets, and in giving away one’s property in love of Him to one’s kinsmen, the orphans, the poor and the wayfarer, and to those who ask for help, and in freeing the necks of slaves, and in establishing Prayer and dispensing the Zakah. True righteousness is attained by those who are faithful to their promise once they have made it and by those who remain steadfast in adversity and affliction and at the time of battle (between Truth and falsehood). Such are the truthful ones; such are the God-fearing.
175. Turning one's face towards the east or the west is mentioned here only by way of illustration. The actual purpose of the verse is to emphasize that the observance of certain outward religious rites, the performance of certain formal religious acts out of conformism, and the manifestation of certain familiar forms of piety do not constitute that essential righteousness which alone carries weight with God and earns His recognition and approval.[/i]
We Ismailis thru our Blessed Pirs have found 'HIM' without referring to
Quran since last 670 years.Only since last 60 years that Imam wished that Quran to studied properly.
it was beacuse the Pirs n Dai did an excellent Baatin understanding on Quran n expressed it in Ginan n Qasidas.
You are mixing (maybe I am wrong) ,Quran with Imam to be present all the time.
If according to you 'HIM' is over Quran,then his Farmans are more needed in today'.s time than a Ayats narrated ages back.
Please do not get emotional, as I know you are a VALUED scholar on it n respect it.
I personally have reading ability of finishing any standard size book, if serious in 15 days time
I am also a person with fair understanding ability.
It took me six month to understand the limited ayats with Baatin meaning which I have already posted,that I feel it is 1% of exploration.
When Hazar Imam said 'many years of understanding'.
He Has surely meant not 1-2 years but 100 years or even few life cycles
to understand it.
Please see my question again it mentions the word Quran n not 'HIM'.
Question: How a person would find Qibla direction from another planet or from space?
Answer: From another planet or in space, one would face a line in space that goes exactly above Ka'bah (This line is the one that connects Ka'bah to Bait-ul-Ma'moor in the heavens). By 3-D trigonometry, it can be calculated from any point in space, how to face such a line. Even on earth we face the same line, not the ka'bah itself.
Sister zznoor I respect your views but why give yourself a headache with all this 3D trignometry ??
We are on planet earth and we have a kaaba right here on earth...to those who wanna face kaaba and recite their prayers let them do so and to those who believe allah[swt] is everywhere and wish to recite their prayers facing anywhere, let them do it.
