first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

[kmaherali]

To Kmaherali:Ya ALI Madad.
I have asked a narrow specific question whether whole or part of Bhuj niranjan is recited.

I have not heard any restrictions about it's recitation. It is not being recited because very few people know how to recite it. I have heard a cassette of the recitation of the entire Granth with meaning and commentary.

I have mentioned the link to it several times, just click on it and see for yourself...

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/bujniran/main.html

[nuseri]

To Kmaherali:Ya ALI madad.
I have contact with one person with Itreb,india.
This ginan is not a part final ginans of spiritual essence for regular recitation.Ismaila association then printed all available ginans in a formatted way.this does not mean endorsement that all have inspirational value.
Printing by an organisation n having it a part of library on this site DOES NOT CONVINCE ME.

[kmaherali]

I have found a lot of wisdom and inspiration from it. So I think it is of value to me. If you find it does not satisy you then you can of course ignore it. There is no compulsion in religion.

[nuseri]

To Kmaherali:Ya Ali Madad.
Your point is well taken.Your wisdom is reflected in many of your postings.I value it earnestly
Is it farman bardari to preach unwarranted ginans?? it is like IGNORNING quality material of tariqa and trying to prove academic mettle in quantative material of traditions.for marifat,I fee you need to listen to Ali not per we via his relatives.
May Ali bless you in your inspiration from unwarranted material( good may not be great).
As an alumni of IIS,maturity n wisdom is expected may be from quality material of tariqa n nor per se from quantative material of traditions.

[kmaherali]

To Kmaherali:Ya Ali Madad.
Your point is well taken.Your wisdom is reflected in many of your postings.I value it earnestly
Is it farman bardari to preach unwarranted ginans??

I don't think that ITREB would republish unwarrented Ginans. Individuals on the quest have found a great deal of wisdom and guidance from Buj Nirinjan.

You may find it as well if you care to read it!

[nuseri]

To kmaherali:Ya ALI madad.
For guidance would you give more value to bolta Qur'an of current times or interpreted Qur'an as understood by a level below in circumstances 730 years old.
If a team of scholars is needed to address n defend the Imamat n Ismaili tariqa.
Which scholar would qualify???
One with scholastic grasp of qualitative Ismaili tariqa material or one with quantitative traditions material.
Our Sufi tariqa practice n success in reading less but understanding more with Intellectual depth,even two words given by ALI is much much much more than enough.
Unwarranted wisdom at time is called in desi language as a DODH DAYA.

[kmaherali]

I think both the intellectual dimension of the understanding of our faith and the traditions of the past are important.

When MHI opned the Ismaili Centre of Toronto he said at the beginning...

"As we inaugurate this building, we also have the opportunity to contemplate what it represents: the inspiring traditions of the past, the stirring challenges of the future, and the continuing search for peace through prayer."

Of course one would have to interpret the traditions according to the present intellectual climate.

[mazharshah]

Just iman on Ali is not sufficient for salvation

No one here said that only iman on Ali is sufficient for salvation. Pir already tell us which are good things to be do e to achieve salvation, go and read bavan boudh, bavan ghaati, so kirya etc. but above every thing Iman is important.

I consider Ginans as religious, ethical, and sufi poetry. I have already read the Ginans you mentioned long ago.

[mazharshah]

A drop merged with ocean does not mean drop is equivalent to ocean

So what is it, Go to the atlantic ocean and drop a drop of water in it and then tell everybody that this is Atlantic ocean and in this there is a drop of water from my nestle mineral water, which is totally different from the ocean . They will start laughing at you.

I guess you are literate enough to understand evaporation cycle. The water in ponds, lake and in mineral bottle in your fridge were once an ocean but because of evaporation they separate from ocean and fall on earth as rain. Whenever they merge with ocean they became ocean.

I don't know about you, but I was definitely an ocean and now I am a drop of water separated from ocean, my aim is to merge with that ocean and become that ocean.

Dear salty drop of ocean,
I can not drink salty water of Atlantic ocean but can drink Nestle bottled water good for health.
Mr.Nuseri claimed, in precious cycles he was Attorney General of Ali and you are claiming once you were ocean converted to drop. Looks like aliens have attacked this site. You preferred to became drop and gave up being an ocean, so sad you have no courage. Water of river is drinkable but we can't drink water of an ocean until it is free from salt and other minerals which is too costly other wise Karachi walas should have consumed Arabian sea long ago. By mentioning drop and ocean doctrine means you are talking about
PANTHEISM which Pirs and Imams have mentioned. Though mostly Ismailis do not believe in this doctrine.

[mazharshah]

Just iman on Ali is not sufficient for salvation, there are other duties religious and ethical necessary for Nijaat. My sunni baba according to Bhuj Nirijan BY pIR Sadruddin is;

AAPEY MULLA AAPEY QAZI
AAPEY PARHEY SO AAP NAMAZI. ( Part 24 )

Of course Iman without Farmanbardari is no Iman. All duties are encompassed in the Farmanbardari.

The Part 24 of Buj Nirinjan refers to the state of enlightened person if you consider the whole part given at:

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/bujniran ... 33.html#24

aape mullaa aape kaazhee
aape padde so aap namaazee........................................5

He himself is the priest and He is the judge and He is the prayer leader and He is the performer of prayer.

i.e. he is his own judge, his own prayer leader and he performs his prayes as well - in other words he is Allah himself.

When I wrote Fana fi real Murshid is fana fi Allah, means I already believe in this notion. My question is fana fi whom, obviously that is Allah. When you are using the preposition FI means you are talking of two different entities merged. A drop merged with ocean does not mean drop is equivalent to ocean. Look at the weight of drop and weight of ocean or depth of drop and ocean. There are thousands of persons claiming that they are fana, are they all walking talking Gods. Do you want me to hold hand of one of such person

[mazharshah]

Just iman on Ali is not sufficient for salvation, there are other duties religious and ethical necessary for Nijaat. My sunni baba according to Bhuj Nirijan BY pIR Sadruddin is;

AAPEY MULLA AAPEY QAZI
AAPEY PARHEY SO AAP NAMAZI. ( Part 24 )

Of course Iman without Farmanbardari is no Iman. All duties are encompassed in the Farmanbardari.

The Part 24 of Buj Nirinjan refers to the state of enlightened person if you consider the whole part given at:

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/bujniran ... 33.html#24

aape mullaa aape kaazhee
aape padde so aap namaazee........................................5

He himself is the priest and He is the judge and He is the prayer leader and He is the performer of prayer.

i.e. he is his own judge, his own prayer leader and he performs his prayes as well - in other words he is Allah himself.

When I wrote Fana fi real Murshid is fana fi Allah, means I already believe in this notion. My question is fana fi whom, obviously that is Allah. When you are using the preposition FI means you are talking of two different entities merged. A drop merged with ocean does not mean drop is equivalent to ocean. Look at the weight of drop and weight of ocean or depth of drop and ocean. There are thousands of persons claiming that they are fana, are they all walking talking Gods. Do you want me to hold hand of one of such person

Admin, please delete above post, I mistakenly hit the wrong button, Thanks.

[mazharshah]

Just iman on Ali is not sufficient for salvation, there are other duties religious and ethical necessary for Nijaat. My sunni baba according to Bhuj Nirijan BY pIR Sadruddin is;

AAPEY MULLA AAPEY QAZI
AAPEY PARHEY SO AAP NAMAZI. ( Part 24 )

Of course Iman without Farmanbardari is no Iman. All duties are encompassed in the Farmanbardari.

The Part 24 of Buj Nirinjan refers to the state of enlightened person if you consider the whole part given at:

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/bujniran ... 33.html#24

aape mullaa aape kaazhee
aape padde so aap namaazee........................................5

He himself is the priest and He is the judge and He is the prayer leader and He is the performer of prayer.

i.e. he is his own judge, his own prayer leader and he performs his prayes as well - in other words he is Allah himself.


With reference to your explaination of "AAPEY MULLA APPEY QAZI" you wrote
" He is His own judge, His own prayer leader and He performs His prays as well- in other words He is Allah Himself".
Sir is this not PANTHEISM?

[ismaili103]

Dear salty drop of ocean,
I can not drink salty water of Atlantic ocean but can drink Nestle bottled water good for health.
Mr.Nuseri claimed, in precious cycles he was Attorney General of Ali and you are claiming once you were ocean converted to drop. Looks like aliens have attacked this site. You preferred to became drop and gave up being an ocean, so sad you have no courage. Water of river is drinkable but we can't drink water of an ocean until it is free from salt and other minerals which is too costly other wise Karachi walas should have consumed Arabian sea long ago. By mentioning drop and ocean doctrine means you are talking about
PANTHEISM which Pirs and Imams have mentioned. Though mostly Ismailis do not believe in this doctrine.

I am again telling you, I know you are literate enough to understand evaporation cycle. Water vapors evaporate from vast ocean and falls on earth as drops, these drops are our soul which was once the ocean but now we are separated from the ocean and falls on the earth. Whenever that drop merge with ocean it will became ocean.

And who am I to preferred to became drop and gave up being the ocean. Allah is in me and I am Allah myself , I just need to give my one hour from my day to bandagi and create a balance between deen and dunya and leave all bad habits thats all WE ALL NEED to became Allah, whenever i'll attain that light within me who is none other than The Most High I will be the Most High.

[ismaili103]

I consider Ginans as religious, ethical, and sufi poetry. I have already read the Ginans you mentioned long ago

And I consider Ginan as Real Quran.

[mazharshah]

I consider Ginans as religious, ethical, and sufi poetry. I have already read the Ginans you mentioned long ago

And I consider Ginan as Real Quran.

Good for you.

[mazharshah]

Dear salty drop of ocean,
I can not drink salty water of Atlantic ocean but can drink Nestle bottled water good for health.
Mr.Nuseri claimed, in precious cycles he was Attorney General of Ali and you are claiming once you were ocean converted to drop. Looks like aliens have attacked this site. You preferred to became drop and gave up being an ocean, so sad you have no courage. Water of river is drinkable but we can't drink water of an ocean until it is free from salt and other minerals which is too costly other wise Karachi walas should have consumed Arabian sea long ago. By mentioning drop and ocean doctrine means you are talking about
PANTHEISM which Pirs and Imams have mentioned. Though mostly Ismailis do not believe in this doctrine.

I am again telling you, I know you are literate enough to understand evaporation cycle. Water vapors evaporate from vast ocean and falls on earth as drops, these drops are our soul which was once the ocean but now we are separated from the ocean and falls on the earth. Whenever that drop merge with ocean it will became ocean.

And who am I to preferred to became drop and gave up being the ocean. Allah is in me and I am Allah myself , I just need to give my one hour from my day to bandagi and create a balance between deen and dunya and leave all bad habits thats all WE ALL NEED to became Allah, whenever i'll attain that light within me who is none other than The Most High I will be the Most High.

Now you are talking; " ALLAH IS IN ME AND I AM ALLAH MYSELF".
It is said in Farsi; "CHI DANID BUZNA LIZZAT E ADRAK"
In bandagi humbleness and down to earth and think you are nothing is important.

[ismaili103]

Now you are talking; " ALLAH IS IN ME AND I AM ALLAH MYSELF".

First of all you need to understand Myself . You and Me are not body, we are soul and that soul is indeed Noor of Allah. And yes Allah is in me and I myself( Noor ,Soul) is Allah, I just need self actualization and Realization to understand Myself that who I am , I am Lion who forgot his identity by living in between Goat( Read Ginan Kesari Sinh Swaroop for further understanding).

It is said in Farsi; "CHI DANID BUZNA LIZZAT E ADRAK"

I was about to wrote that in my previous post for you when you keep behave like Naa Daan.

[kmaherali]

With reference to your explaination of "AAPEY MULLA APPEY QAZI" you wrote
" He is His own judge, His own prayer leader and He performs His prays as well- in other words He is Allah Himself".
Sir is this not PANTHEISM?

I asked you to consider the entire Part 24 and you keep focusing on one verse.

Consider the verse before the verse under consideration.

na ees maaee na ees baap
huvaa nira(n)jan aapohee aap......................................4

(For) He does not have a mother or father as He became the Unkowable by Himself - He has become the Mazhar of the IKHLAS that we recite in the 6th part.

aape mullaa aape kaazhee
aape padde so aap namaazee........................................5

He himself is the priest and He is the judge and He is the prayer leader and He is the performer of prayer.

The verse 4 states that the enlightened or elevated person him/herself becomes Niranjan - the Undescribable God. Then verses 5 describes the nature of the elevated soul having become God.

This is not the same as saying that everything is God according to Pantheism but rather one particular elevated person has become God.

[mazharshah]

Now you are talking; " ALLAH IS IN ME AND I AM ALLAH MYSELF".

First of all you need to understand Myself . You and Me are not body, we are soul and that soul is indeed Noor of Allah. And yes Allah is in me and I myself( Noor ,Soul) is Allah, I just need self actualization and Realization to understand Myself that who I am , I am Lion who forgot his identity by living in between Goat( Read Ginan Kesari Sinh Swaroop for further understanding).


Why you forgot your identification, when you are Karim why pretend to be 103?
You should have stayed as lion and not become goat. Now eat 10 pounds of meat and drink 5 kg of milk every day to acquire same status.( just kidding).
The theory which you mentioned that 'you are He and He is you' resembles the doctrine of Quakers and Ranters of 17th century in England and this same theory is mentioned in Vedas" tet toum asi" which was adopted by our pirs, "Hum Tum donu Sai(n)a Eek hai(n)".

[mazharshah]

With reference to your explaination of "AAPEY MULLA APPEY QAZI" you wrote
" He is His own judge, His own prayer leader and He performs His prays as well- in other words He is Allah Himself".
Sir is this not PANTHEISM?

I asked you to consider the entire Part 24 and you keep focusing on one verse.

Consider the verse before the verse under consideration.

na ees maaee na ees baap
huvaa nira(n)jan aapohee aap......................................4

(For) He does not have a mother or father as He became the Unkowable by Himself - He has become the Mazhar of the IKHLAS that we recite in the 6th part.

aape mullaa aape kaazhee
aape padde so aap namaazee........................................5

He himself is the priest and He is the judge and He is the prayer leader and He is the performer of prayer.

The verse 4 states that the enlightened or elevated person him/herself becomes Niranjan - the Undescribable God. Then verses 5 describes the nature of the elevated soul having become God.

This is not the same as saying that everything is God according to Pantheism but rather one particular elevated person has become God.

In part 24/4, you have translated Nirinjan as Mazhar of the Ihklas, where as Nirijan means ' He who is not visible'. So you twisted the meaning.
True He has no father no mother( no sons no daughters) because He is Nirijan, " wa lamya kulahu kufuwan Ahad". But,
SO GUPTA PRAGHAT BHAYO
LAAKH DARO TISS NAAM RE.
When hidden became apparent, hundred thousand+ His names popped up.
( because He is all in all ), therefore He is Qazi, Mulla, and Namazi.
Same philosophy in part 25 of Bhuj Nirijan;

AAPEY MAREY AAPEY JILAWEY
AAPEY DUKH SUKH DIKHLAWEY (part 25/1)
He is the one who kills and He is the one who gives life and He is the one who gives happiness and sorrows.

PUNIYA PAAP DOEY AAP KARAWEY
AAPEY SARAG NARAG LEY JAWEY. (part 25/2)
He causes us to good and to sin and He takes us to either heaven or hell.
This shows He is every thing and He is all in all.

JO KAREY HAI AAP KAREY HAI
HAME(N) 'ABAS BADNAAM KIYA

[ismaili103]

Why you forgot your identification, when you are Karim why pretend to be 103?
You should have stayed as lion and not become goat. Now eat 10 pounds of meat and drink 5 kg of milk every day to acquire same status.( just kidding).
The theory which you mentioned that 'you are He and He is you' resembles the doctrine of Quakers and Ranters of 17th century in England and this same theory is mentioned in Vedas" tet toum asi" which was adopted by our pirs, "Hum Tum donu Sai(n)a Eek hai(n)".

I gave you beautiful Ginan of Pir to read it and Understand it as Lion ( Soul) and Goat ( Physical body) and instead of understanding it you are making fun of Ginan and Pirs ( your true mother). Don't ever dare to make fun of Pirs And Ginans in front of me, desi pakistani hu, maarne per agaya to teri pure khaandaan ki maar daluga" .

Its time for you to leave that corrupt book of usman which is making chaos in world and because of which muslims are known as terrorists and that book taking you far from your tariqa, and be cause of that book you are become a big Ginan Hater, aur purey Chicago ma tumhari halat past se past hogai ha.

Admin , Mazhar is continuously making fun of Ginans, you should take the action for him he is not here to understand Ismailism he is just here to make fun of every Ismaili tradition , rites and ceremonies which are not part of central asian tradition.

[kmaherali]

In part 24/4, you have translated Nirinjan as Mazhar of the Ihklas, where as Nirijan means ' He who is not visible'. So you twisted the meaning.
True He has no father no mother( no sons no daughters) because He is Nirijan, " wa lamya kulahu kufuwan Ahad". But,
SO GUPTA PRAGHAT BHAYO
LAAKH DARO TISS NAAM RE.
When hidden became apparent, hundred thousand+ His names popped up.
( because He is all in all ), therefore He is Qazi, Mulla, and Namazi.
Same philosophy in part 25 of Bhuj Nirijan;

Just google the meaning of nirinjan and it does NOT imply not visible or hidden.

Meaning from google..

Niranjana (Niranjan) - Indian word, use in religious formulas (mantra), names and Hindu mithology. It is popular in Bengal. Word niranjan means spotless, Pure, Supreme being, Unpainted, Devoid of all Objectifications, without any bad quality (attributes), active, truth full, great, a gift of god.

anjan means forms or attributes and nir means without so nirinjan means without forms or attributes.

24/4 is talking about the enlightened person becoming nirinjan (read the whole part 24_). It means that he becomes the Mazhar of the Nirinjan. He is visible just like the Imam who is the Mazhar of God.

He is NOT hidden as you are implying!

[kmaherali]

Why you forgot your identification, when you are Karim why pretend to be 103?

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
I read a comment in this forum that poem of Bhuj Niranjan may not be a work of Pirs Sadarddin but of Sufi of Qadri origin.
Need some clarity?
Has any scholar done forensic of style n composing words used n a hall mark pattern used by Pir Sadarddin.
n making it as base reference to match other materials of tradition.
Has this so called ginan has reference from Sufi stalwarts like Imam begum,Kara Ruda,pirs sabhjali or any Imam.
I observe the total debates on this heading matter as a CLASH OF IGNORANCE.
Even the debator may have PhD as secular qualification.

[Admin]

Ya Ali Madad.
I read a comment in this forum that poem of Bhuj Niranjan may not be a work of Pirs Sadarddin but of Sufi of Qadri origin.
Need some clarity?

Discuss this subject in the appropriate thread. Is this difficult to understand? I have repeated this over and over. The Bhuj Nirinjan Granth should be discussed in the following thread:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... j+nirinjan

[zznoor]

Its time for you to leave that corrupt book of usman which is making chaos in world and because of which muslims are known as terrorists and that book taking you far from your tariqa, and be cause of that book you are become a big Ginan Hater, aur purey Chicago ma tumhari halat past se past hogai ha.

Br 103
AS
You are referring to Quran which is revered by 1.6 B Muslims including your Dharm Guru. His grand father Ali RA recited same text during period of 3 Khalifs and his 5.5 years of khilafat. You have all right to believe whatever. Please note that Cowardise was not a trait of Hz Ali RA. If something was omitted 7 imams would have definaty pointed out.
Salaam

[ismaili103]

Br 103
AS
You are referring to Quran which is revered by 1.6 B Muslims including your Dharm Guru. His grand father Ali RA recited same text during period of 3 Khalifs and his 5.5 years of khilafat. You have all right to believe whatever. Please note that Cowardise was not a trait of Hz Ali RA. If something was omitted 7 imams would have definaty pointed out.
Salaam

Walaikum asalam,

Imam Sultan Mohd Shah Cleary stated in his Farman that " At the time of khalifa usman, Quran had altered and corrupted." ( not exact words).

[mazharshah]

Why you forgot your identification, when you are Karim why pretend to be 103?

Can you clarify what you mean by that?

The post was not addressed to you but to Karim Jivani who is 103.

[mazharshah]

Why you forgot your identification, when you are Karim why pretend to be 103?
You should have stayed as lion and not become goat. Now eat 10 pounds of meat and drink 5 kg of milk every day to acquire same status.( just kidding).
The theory which you mentioned that 'you are He and He is you' resembles the doctrine of Quakers and Ranters of 17th century in England and this same theory is mentioned in Vedas" tet toum asi" which was adopted by our pirs, "Hum Tum donu Sai(n)a Eek hai(n)".

I gave you beautiful Ginan of Pir to read it and Understand it as Lion ( Soul) and Goat ( Physical body) and instead of understanding it you are making fun of Ginan and Pirs ( your true mother). Don't ever dare to make fun of Pirs And Ginans in front of me, desi pakistani hu, maarne per agaya to teri pure khaandaan ki maar daluga"

Its time for you to leave that corrupt book of usman which is making chaos in world and because of which muslims are known as terrorists and that book taking you far from your tariqa, and be cause of that book you are become a big Ginan Hater, aur purey Chicago ma tumhari halat past se past hogai ha.

Admin , Mazhar is continuously making fun of Ginans, you should take the action for him he is not here to understand Ismailism he is just here to make fun of every Ismaili tradition , rites and ceremonies which are not part of central asian tradition.

Dear Desi Goat,
I never disrespect ginans, but I am watching what you learnt from ginans to threat others. I don't take threats. I damn care for barking dogs. I have military back ground and I am not scared of RATS like you. Never ever threat again central Asians or other Ismaili brothern. Maro aagar pachhar rowa waro koi nathi, potani family ni fikar rakh. Go AND THREAT THOSE WHO KILLED YOUR BHAI BANDU IN SAFURA.
The Quran which you call fake was kissed by Hazar Imam, what you think is Imam fake?

[mazharshah]

Its time for you to leave that corrupt book of usman which is making chaos in world and because of which muslims are known as terrorists and that book taking you far from your tariqa, and be cause of that book you are become a big Ginan Hater, aur purey Chicago ma tumhari halat past se past hogai ha.

Br 103
AS
You are referring to Quran which is revered by 1.6 B Muslims including your Dharm Guru. His grand father Ali RA recited same text during period of 3 Khalifs and his 5.5 years of khilafat. You have all right to believe whatever. Please note that Cowardise was not a trait of Hz Ali RA. If something was omitted 7 imams would have definaty pointed out.
Salaam

ZZ Noor Aadab,

By making such kind of statements against Quran, that idiot is putting other Ismailis lives in danger in Pak. Because of such statements other Muslims disrespect and abhor Ismaili Khoja community. Where as our Imam kisses and respect Quran.
This fake so called mairifati boy dances a lot need some special treatment.