quran as mentioned in preamble

[salimkhoja786]

I was going through my old notes written some 20 years back; I found an interesting story told me by a missionary saheb, which I am sharing with readers. According to missionary saheb;
MSMS was sitting with some British friends in London.They were discussing WINE literally used by Hafiz and Khayyam in their poetry. During that literally session one of MSMS's friend asked him, What kind of wine you like? As MSMS was fond of Hafiz Shirazi's poetry, he replied with one stanza of Hafiz;
HAQQA MAI(wine) NA MI KHORUM, HANUZ SARKHOSHEM
Trans: Indeed I do not consume wine but always stay intoxicated(spiritually).
Urdu Trans: Haqqiqat ye hai mai(n) sharaab pitaa nahi hu(n) phir bhi madhosh rahta hu(n).

[Admin]

The point I am making is that to different audiences he will project a different image either through his actions or words. When the Memoirs was published, the Imam sent a talika to say that he has two audiences in front of him. The Memoirs was for the Western audience. I think the Admin has seen this talika.

Yes I saw a copy of that Talika in the 1990s' in Late Abualy Missionary's basement in Vancouver. I believe all of his documents are now with his son Mohamed.

By the way it is good to know that Krishna was not stealing books but he was stealing butter, yummy!

[kmaherali]

I was going through my old notes written some 20 years back; I found an interesting story told me by a missionary saheb, which I am sharing with readers. According to missionary saheb;
MSMS was sitting with some British friends in London.They were discussing WINE literally used by Hafiz and Khayyam in their poetry. During that literally session one of MSMS's friend asked him, What kind of wine you like? As MSMS was fond of Hafiz Shirazi's poetry, he replied with one stanza of Hafiz;
HAQQA MAI(wine) NA MI KHORUM, HANUZ SARKHOSHEM
Trans: Indeed I do not consume wine but always stay intoxicated(spiritually).
Urdu Trans: Haqqiqat ye hai mai(n) sharaab pitaa nahi hu(n) phir bhi madhosh rahta hu(n).

Good, that there is a different account which satisfies your understanding. As I said the Imam expresses himself differently in different contexts. Though serious scholars and historians will pay attention to the biographies of Greenwall and Jackson.

[kmaherali]

By the way it is good to know that Krishna was not stealing books but he was stealing butter, yummy!

There has been discussion on this at:

Ginan - Paratak Paatrane Prakhine
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... shna+gopis

Shall I tell you our secret?
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... hna+butter

[salimkhoja786]

I was going through my old notes written some 20 years back; I found an interesting story told me by a missionary saheb, which I am sharing with readers. According to missionary saheb;
MSMS was sitting with some British friends in London.They were discussing WINE literally used by Hafiz and Khayyam in their poetry. During that literally session one of MSMS's friend asked him, What kind of wine you like? As MSMS was fond of Hafiz Shirazi's poetry, he replied with one stanza of Hafiz;
HAQQA MAI(wine) NA MI KHORUM, HANUZ SARKHOSHEM
Trans: Indeed I do not consume wine but always stay intoxicated(spiritually).
Urdu Trans: Haqqiqat ye hai mai(n) sharaab pitaa nahi hu(n) phir bhi madhosh rahta hu(n).

Good, that there is a different account which satisfies your understanding. As I said the Imam expresses himself differently in different contexts. Though serious scholars and historians will pay attention to the biographies of Greenwall and Jackson.

I am firm on my assertion do you, that MSMS never consumed alcohol. Karim I am on this forum past one year, you are on this forum past 13/14 years, and you did not raised this question before why this time? Leonard Slater was also friend of Prince Aly khan, why he spilled the beans!!

[salimkhoja786]

I am looking for the farmans of MSMS from 1951 - 1057. Are they in book form published either in Pakistan, India, or East Africa. I have some copies in scattered form but looking for a book like KIM.

[Admin]

I am looking for the farmans of MSMS from 1951 - 1057. Are they in book form published either in Pakistan, India, or East Africa. I have some copies in scattered form but looking for a book like KIM.

No, Farmans are only for Ismailis. It is inappropriate for us Ismailis to give Farmans to people insulting our Imams.

[salimkhoja786]

I am looking for the farmans of MSMS from 1951 - 1057. Are they in book form published either in Pakistan, India, or East Africa. I have some copies in scattered form but looking for a book like KIM.

No, Farmans are only for Ismailis. It is inappropriate for us Ismailis to give Farmans to people insulting our Imams.

I did not ask any one to mail me the book if existed. My question was is there any compilation of such book and published in which country.
I am not insulting my Imam. These are you people who post, Imam consumed alcohol and post his dancing photos. What kind of service you are providing to Ismailis?

[kmaherali]

Leonard Slater was also friend of Prince Aly khan, why he spilled the beans!!

How did you know that?

[kmaherali]

These are you people who post, Imam consumed alcohol and post his dancing photos. What kind of service you are providing to Ismailis?

Providing the truth so that they understand the reality of the Imam as God and not an ordinary human being subject to human standards of what is write and what is wrong.

[Admin]

I did not ask any one to mail me the book if existed. My question was is there any compilation of such book and published in which country.

Yes there are Farman Books of Imam Sultan Muhammad Sah since his Imamat started. The earlier books are in Khojki, therefore less known. Some of those books are Katch ni pehli musafari, Jangbar ni pehli musafri, Jangbar ni biji musafri et... we are in the process of making a list whcih will be available this year once completed

[salimkhoja786]

I did not ask any one to mail me the book if existed. My question was is there any compilation of such book and published in which country.

Yes there are Farman Books of Imam Sultan Muhammad Sah since his Imamat started. The earlier books are in Khojki, therefore less known. Some of those books are Katch ni pehli musafari, Jangbar ni pehli musafri, Jangbar ni biji musafri et... we are in the process of making a list whcih will be available this year once completed

Now you gave proper answer, thanks.
I am aware of the books you mentioned. My target is in between years 1951-1957.I have copies of some farmans but not in book form as KIM.

[salimkhoja786]

These are you people who post, Imam consumed alcohol and post his dancing photos. What kind of service you are providing to Ismailis?

Providing the truth so that they understand the reality of the Imam as God and not an ordinary human being subject to human standards of what is write and what is wrong.

Imam being as a human being lives amongst human beings to guide them according to human mind faculties. He is not living between human beings as a lion or an angel. If he has to stay as god in spiritual world, then simply has to fax the hidayat to president of federal council and in leisure time should has consumed the alcohol so no one can see him. Let me quote a sentence from a e-mail I received on this topic ( though intentionally I do not want to mention it). An Ismaili from Karachi wrote, I quote," IF IMAM CONSUMES ALCOHOL, HE CAN NOT STAY AS IMAM ACCORDING TO ISLAMIC TENETS WHICH HE HAS MENTIONED IN PREAMBLE".
What about non Ismailis, what kind of message you are conveying to them, 'that spiritual leader of Ismailis is alcoholic'. Religiously, already they are against Ismailis and you people are fanning more hatred. I have already wrote in my previous post, "BATINI PEOPLE SHOULD STAY IN THEIR BATINS FOR BATINI AFFAIRS.

[salimkhoja786]

Leonard Slater was also friend of Prince Aly khan, why he spilled the beans!!

How did you know that?

Let me quote 2 paragraphs from the book 'Aly' by Leonard Slater. In PROLOGUE
he wrote,I quote;
I last saw Aly khan as he climbed into the cabin of an Air France jet at Idlewild Airport in New York. He was late, as usual. His United Nations adviser, Jack Ross and I stood at the foot of the ramp, simultaneously waving good bye.

I had not known Aly very long but I had spent a lot of time with him in the last months of his life, visiting him at his Chateau de l'Horizon on the French Riviera; traveling with him to his stud farms in Ireland, the heart of his enormous horse racing operations; chatting with him after United Nations sessions in New York. I had liked him from the start.

[kmaherali]

Imam being as a human being lives amongst human beings to guide them according to human mind faculties. He is not living between human beings as a lion or an angel. If he has to stay as god in spiritual world, then simply has to fax the hidayat to president of federal council and in leisure time should has consumed the alcohol so no one can see him..

The Imam is the Hujjat, the mazhar and the Avatar. He is God manifest in a human form. He is there to guide us through his words but not through his actions. That is the Ismaili understanding of the Imam as opposed to the 12ver understanding. I gave you the authoritative statements of Tusi who wrote under the patronage of the Imam of the time.

Let me quote a sentence from a e-mail I received on this topic ( though intentionally I do not want to mention it). An Ismaili from Karachi wrote, I quote," IF IMAM CONSUMES ALCOHOL, HE CAN NOT STAY AS IMAM ACCORDING TO ISLAMIC TENETS WHICH HE HAS MENTIONED IN PREAMBLE"..

Where does the preamble state that the Imam should behave according to the prescriptions of Sharia?

What about non Ismailis, what kind of message you are conveying to them, 'that spiritual leader of Ismailis is alcoholic'. Religiously, already they are against Ismailis and you people are fanning more hatred. I have already wrote in my previous post, "BATINI PEOPLE SHOULD STAY IN THEIR BATINS FOR BATINI AFFAIRS.

The Imam expresses himself according to the audience. Perhaps he does not want to give the impression to the world that he is infallible God. That is the reason that he wrote in his Memoirs that he stole books which is not only sinful but criminal!

[kmaherali]

Let me quote 2 paragraphs from the book 'Aly' by Leonard Slater. In PROLOGUE
he wrote,I quote;
I last saw Aly khan as he climbed into the cabin of an Air France jet at Idlewild Airport in New York. He was late, as usual. His United Nations adviser, Jack Ross and I stood at the foot of the ramp, simultaneously waving good bye.

I had not known Aly very long but I had spent a lot of time with him in the last months of his life, visiting him at his Chateau de l'Horizon on the French Riviera; traveling with him to his stud farms in Ireland, the heart of his enormous horse racing operations; chatting with him after United Nations sessions in New York. I had liked him from the start.

Thanks for sharing this information. I read the book some 30 years ago and I don't have a copy.

OK say that whatever he wrote about Prince Aly Khan was true based on his experiences with him, so what? The actions of the Nurani family have no bearing upon our lives. They are not the role models.

[kmaherali]

human standards of what is write and what is wrong.

Sorry, it is a typo. It should be what is right and what is wrong. I can't edit my post.

[salimkhoja786]

Let me quote 2 paragraphs from the book 'Aly' by Leonard Slater. In PROLOGUE
he wrote,I quote;
I last saw Aly khan as he climbed into the cabin of an Air France jet at Idlewild Airport in New York. He was late, as usual. His United Nations adviser, Jack Ross and I stood at the foot of the ramp, simultaneously waving good bye.

I had not known Aly very long but I had spent a lot of time with him in the last months of his life, visiting him at his Chateau de l'Horizon on the French Riviera; traveling with him to his stud farms in Ireland, the heart of his enormous horse racing operations; chatting with him after United Nations sessions in New York. I had liked him from the start.

Thanks for sharing this information. I read the book some 30 years ago and I don't have a copy.

OK say that whatever he wrote about Prince Aly Khan was true based on his experiences with him, so what? The actions of the Nurani family have no bearing upon our lives. They are not the role models.

The word NOORANI can be used only for Hazar Imam because he is Mazhar of Allah. For other family members ROYAL will be used.
You wrote," family members have no bearing upon our lives", I think there is, because of internet youth is asking questions which I dare not to post.
I personally adore Prince Aly Khan. I consider him role model. He was dashing, debonair, brave, courageous, funny, sportsman and do or die type of person.
Slater mostly wrote garbage to make money.

[salimkhoja786]

Imam being as a human being lives amongst human beings to guide them according to human mind faculties. He is not living between human beings as a lion or an angel. If he has to stay as god in spiritual world, then simply has to fax the hidayat to president of federal council and in leisure time should has consumed the alcohol so no one can see him..

The Imam is the Hujjat, the mazhar and the Avatar. He is God manifest in a human form. He is there to guide us through his words but not through his actions. That is the Ismaili understanding of the Imam as opposed to the 12ver understanding. I gave you the authoritative statements of Tusi who wrote under the patronage of the Imam of the time.

Let me quote a sentence from a e-mail I received on this topic ( though intentionally I do not want to mention it). An Ismaili from Karachi wrote, I quote," IF IMAM CONSUMES ALCOHOL, HE CAN NOT STAY AS IMAM ACCORDING TO ISLAMIC TENETS WHICH HE HAS MENTIONED IN PREAMBLE"..

Where does the preamble state that the Imam should behave according to the prescriptions of Sharia?

What about non Ismailis, what kind of message you are conveying to them, 'that spiritual leader of Ismailis is alcoholic'. Religiously, already they are against Ismailis and you people are fanning more hatred. I have already wrote in my previous post, "BATINI PEOPLE SHOULD STAY IN THEIR BATINS FOR BATINI AFFAIRS.

The Imam expresses himself according to the audience. Perhaps he does not want to give the impression to the world that he is infallible God. That is the reason that he wrote in his Memoirs that he stole books which is not only sinful but criminal!

Tusi became Ismaili because he was interested in Almout observatory. At the end of his life he became again Isna'ashiri when there was no pressure of Mongols and was living retired life. You are giving references of Tusi but is not accepting references of Qadi Noaman or Muhammad bin Qadi Noaman. They had the patronage of Imam of the time but you refuted by writing this in your previous posts, is 1000 years old literature.
In Preamble Imam mentioned that Holy Quran is the final message of ALLAH
and is universal and eternal. Quran says consuming alcohol is sin.
For Memoirs you wrote, that was written for westerners and not particularly for Ismailis, then why you keep quoting Memoirs frequently. For westerners he was thief and for Ismailis he is Ma'sum!!

[salimkhoja786]

Just to elaborate on the incomprehensibilty of the actions of the Imam, in his Memoirs, MSMS wrote that when he was a boy, he used to steal books from a bookstore until he was caught by his uncle and was taught a lesson. From that day he never stole anything.

In case you don't believe what I said, the following is the quote from Memoirs:

"As I have remarked, I early acquired an insatiable taste for reading. It developed rapidly from the time that I was ten or so, and when I had temporarily, at any rate, plumbed the resources of our library, I looked elsewhere. I wanted to buy books for myself. But there was one small impediment: my mother allowed me no pocket money. My cousin and I organized ourselves a brilliant way around this difficulty. Each of us put on an abba (a wide, all-enveloping cloak which is, or used to be, a universal piece of clothing in Persia and the Arab countries). Thus garbed we made our way to a wellknown Bombay bookshop. One of us engaged the shopkeeper in eager conversation, and the other slid some books into the folds of his abba. Our little device was pretty soon spotted, and the proprietor of the shop told my uncle and my mother. Naturally our bill was promptly settled, but the family decided that we should be taught a lesson. Nothing was said to us and we continued our naughty little game. We were at it one day when into the shop walked my uncle.

"Take off your abbas!" he ordered sternly.

As we did so, the books which we had stolen tumbled to the floor. Our shame and our mortification were immediate and complete, and from that day to this I don't think I have ever so much as picked a flower in anyone else's garden without telling him."

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30605

Can a murid of Imam discipline, teach a lesson and orders to Imam?

[Admin]

Yes some pretend to be Murid of the Imam and still are very rude with him. I have personnaly witnessed this from at least 2 leaders.

[kmaherali]

The word NOORANI can be used only for Hazar Imam because he is Mazhar of Allah. For other family members ROYAL will be used.
You wrote," family members have no bearing upon our lives", I think there is, because of internet youth is asking questions which I dare not to post.
I personally adore Prince Aly Khan. I consider him role model. He was dashing, debonair, brave, courageous, funny, sportsman and do or die type of person.
Slater mostly wrote garbage to make money.

We call the members of Nurani Family NOORANI don't we. They have a different role than other members of the Jamat. Why do you think they sit on chairs with the Imam during the Didars/Darbars and not like the rest of the Jamat on the floor/carpet?

MSMS was asked about some of the actions of Prince Alykhan and he responded that we should not question the actions of the Ahl al-Bayt. No doubt Prince Aly Khan had some extra ordinary capabilities - giving BOL for example.

To the youths , me must impress upon them that the Noorani family are not to be considered as the role models. They have a different role to play.

[kmaherali]

Tusi became Ismaili because he was interested in Almout observatory. At the end of his life he became again Isna'ashiri when there was no pressure of Mongols and was living retired life. You are giving references of Tusi but is not accepting references of Qadi Noaman or Muhammad bin Qadi Noaman. They had the patronage of Imam of the time but you refuted by writing this in your previous posts, is 1000 years old literature.!!

What did Qadi Numan say about the Imam that is different than what Tusi said? Doesn't the Memoirs confirm what Tusi said - that the Imam's actions are beyond comprehension - stealing books for example.

In Preamble Imam mentioned that Holy Quran is the final message of ALLAH
and is universal and eternal. Quran says consuming alcohol is sin.

The Preamble does not say that the Imam has to guide by example but the role of the Imam is to provide the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of the message.

For Memoirs you wrote, that was written for westerners and not particularly for Ismailis, then why you keep quoting Memoirs frequently. For westerners he was thief and for Ismailis he is Ma'sum!!

The Memoirs was written primarily for the non-Jamati audience, just as the Qur'an was revealed to mankind. Just as we quote ayats from the Qur'an to make a point, we quote Memoirs to make a point. We don't differ from the rest of mankind on every aspect of faith. There are commonalities which we share with other Muslims. For them we can quote the Memoirs.

However on the concept of Imamat we differ from the rest because we don't consider the Imam as an ordinary human being. The Imam himself has projected to the world as being an ordinary human being who stole books and who had to be taught a lesson.

To the Jamats the Imam said that he was the Ahle Rasul and the bearer of the Noor.

This difference is reflected in the fact that the Imam reads prepared speeches when talking to the public but makes extempore Farmans when speaking to the Jamats.

[kmaherali]

Can a murid of Imam discipline, teach a lesson and orders to Imam?

When the Imam was a boy, there were many Ismailis who considered him to be a boy!

In my opinion the intention of the Imam to reveal this to the world was to show that he was an ordinary human being who had to be taught a lesson.

[salimkhoja786]

The word NOORANI can be used only for Hazar Imam because he is Mazhar of Allah. For other family members ROYAL will be used.
You wrote," family members have no bearing upon our lives", I think there is, because of internet youth is asking questions which I dare not to post.
I personally adore Prince Aly Khan. I consider him role model. He was dashing, debonair, brave, courageous, funny, sportsman and do or die type of person.
Slater mostly wrote garbage to make money.

We call the members of Nurani Family NOORANI don't we. They have a different role than other members of the Jamat. Why do you think they sit on chairs with the Imam during the Didars/Darbars and not like the rest of the Jamat on the floor/carpet?

MSMS was asked about some of the actions of Prince Alykhan and he responded that we should not question the actions of the Ahl al-Bayt. No doubt Prince Aly Khan had some extra ordinary capabilities - giving BOL for example.

To the youths , me must impress upon them that the Noorani family are not to be considered as the role models. They have a different role to play.

We give respect to family members of Imam. Does Noorani applies to Begum
Salima and Begum Anara? Possessor of Noor is Hazar Imam.

[Admin]

Coming back to Quran in the Preamble.

Here is a very interesting sentence from an Interview which shows that Imam not only interprets the Quran but also does the Law (brings new law):

http://www.ismaili.net/intervue/i671015.html

"Voyez-vous, ma mission se situe sur trois plans. Religieux d'abord: il s'agit d'une exégèse symbolique du Coran.

Interpréter la parole divine, l'adopter au moment, aux besoins de chaque communauté. Refaire la loi, constamment, inlassablement. "

"You see, my mission is on three levels: Religious (level) to begin: it is about a symbolic exegesis of the Quran.

To Interpret the divine word, to adapt it to the time, to the need of each community. To Redo the law, constantly, tirelessly."

[kmaherali]

We give respect to family members of Imam. Does Noorani applies to Begum
Salima and Begum Anara? Possessor of Noor is Hazar Imam.

On what basis do we respect them. Setting aside the wives who are usually non-Ismailis, the other members don't practice their faith as other murids. For example, they don'tattend JK. In this respect aren't they worse than other murids?

[salimkhoja786]

We give respect to family members of Imam. Does Noorani applies to Begum
Salima and Begum Anara? Possessor of Noor is Hazar Imam.

On what basis do we respect them. Setting aside the wives who are usually non-Ismailis, the other members don't practice their faith as other murids. For example, they don'tattend JK. In this respect aren't they worse than other murids?

Being as Ismails, family members of Imam should attend JK or for them is different kind of Ismailism. Did Mowla Ali's sons or Imam Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq's sons attend Salat /Du'a or not? Wives of Hazar Imam became Muslims and adopted Ismailism. Nikah was recited by Mullahs. One mother of princes should be called mother of 'future' Imam. Still you will set aside and disrespect that mother?

[salimkhoja786]

Tusi became Ismaili because he was interested in Almout observatory. At the end of his life he became again Isna'ashiri when there was no pressure of Mongols and was living retired life. You are giving references of Tusi but is not accepting references of Qadi Noaman or Muhammad bin Qadi Noaman. They had the patronage of Imam of the time but you refuted by writing this in your previous posts, is 1000 years old literature.!!

What did Qadi Numan say about the Imam that is different than what Tusi said? Doesn't the Memoirs confirm what Tusi said - that the Imam's actions are beyond comprehension - stealing books for example.

In Preamble Imam mentioned that Holy Quran is the final message of ALLAH
and is universal and eternal. Quran says consuming alcohol is sin.

The Preamble does not say that the Imam has to guide by example but the role of the Imam is to provide the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of the message.

For Memoirs you wrote, that was written for westerners and not particularly for Ismailis, then why you keep quoting Memoirs frequently. For westerners he was thief and for Ismailis he is Ma'sum!!

The Memoirs was written primarily for the non-Jamati audience, just as the Qur'an was revealed to mankind. Just as we quote ayats from the Qur'an to make a point, we quote Memoirs to make a point. We don't differ from the rest of mankind on every aspect of faith. There are commonalities which we share with other Muslims. For them we can quote the Memoirs.

However on the concept of Imamat we differ from the rest because we don't consider the Imam as an ordinary human being. The Imam himself has projected to the world as being an ordinary human being who stole books and who had to be taught a lesson.

To the Jamats the Imam said that he was the Ahle Rasul and the bearer of the Noor.

This difference is reflected in the fact that the Imam reads prepared speeches when talking to the public but makes extempore Farmans when speaking to the Jamats.

You are giving example of Tusi's statement and neglecting writings of Qadi Noaman. Please refer to first chapter of Dua'm Al Islam. Tusi quit Ismailism at the end of his life and became Isna'ashiri where as Qadi Noaman remained Ismaili and faithful to Imam till his last breath. In my view stealing any thing (books) bu Imam is a bad example for youth may be acceptable to westerners.
You wrote," To the jamaits the Imam said that he was Ahl e Rasul and the bearer of Noor". I accept this farman BUT no where in this farman Imam said that he is God!
You frequently quote Memoirs, let me ask you a question; In Memoirs MSMS has mentioned his second marriage as MUTA marraige. Is this applicable to Ismailis or is only confined to Imam?
In preamble Imam has mentioned that message of Quran is eternal and universal. Quran says for Prophet Muhammad," Prophet's life is a best example for you". MSMS said he is Noor e Muhammadi as well Noor e Ali. There fore Imam is also considered as a role model or example.

[kmaherali]

Being as Ismails, family members of Imam should attend JK or for them is different kind of Ismailism. Did Mowla Ali's sons or Imam Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq's sons attend Salat /Du'a or not? Wives of Hazar Imam became Muslims and adopted Ismailism. Nikah was recited by Mullahs. One mother of princes should be called mother of 'future' Imam. Still you will set aside and disrespect that mother?

There is only one kind of Ismailism. If you do not belief that the rest of the Nurani Family (wives excluded) are NOORANI than there is no basis for respecting them. We only respect them because they are NOORANI like MHI and hence do not need to practice as other murids - JK attendance for example.

History is irrelevant here. We know that all members of Nurani family work in unity for the cause of Imamat.

All the wives in the Nurani Family have never become Ismailis perhaps with the exception of Lady Ali Shah and Mata Salamat who became Ismailis much later in their lives.

Setting aside did not mean disrespect for them? It was only meant to consider them as a separate category because they are not Ismailis.