To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
To me Imam is the guide of time whom we call as MHI in plain vanilla meaning.
Now as an Ismaili ,I firmly believe the Farman of Imams as an absolute ordinance on me.
In already stated the Farman of Imam SMS that is the same Murtaza ALI
and confirms being the same Noor/soul.
and in an earlier Farman of 47 th Imam Aga Ali Shah he has clearly mentioned his status of Ali Allah in simple language and stating Allah
(word n name of Allah came from ALI).
So 'what is Imam to me'?
Confirming my absolute belief in above two farmans and many many others
one linking Hazar Imam with Ali
and Status ALI Allah said in other Farman.
There is NO if,but,or rocket science logic and suppose stories to challenge n condemn it.by me .
So MHI of an Ismaili is Moula Ali and who is Allah himself on Earth.
This is plain belief n conviction.
Belief being conviction which cannot be seen and at time proved physically can be argued by many to see Imam as a plain normal looking
behaving human being on Earth.
They are also right at there own level.
If you do not trust the Farman ,our wordings in our Dua n tasbish.
It means U lack trust in words Of Imam, Dua ,Tasbih.
You are cursing yourself to shallow belief by default by being born an Ismaile and as worse as an devil or any orthodox Shariati of your non belief.
Even moderate Shariati consider him as Sayyed " An ordinary soul from the lineage of Prophet".Little more respect given to ant normal muslim."
Too much of stand against the Farman of Imam for the sake of debate is like calling for curse in your next phase of Life.
Even downgrade from borderline suspicious Tariqati status to Shariati in next life From Shariat to Tariqat could be few hundred Life cycles of Ignorance n disbelief.
I also some time play a role of devil's advocate in my consultancy service
to manipulate.tear apart and distort the facts of a case for professional reasons even at time I may be not on the right side because the company seeking consultancy was not on the right side.I stay helpless n service them with all my Intellectual ability
After death
nuseri wrote:To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
To me Imam is the guide of time whom we call as MHI in plain vanilla meaning.
Now as an Ismaili ,I firmly believe the Farman of Imams as an absolute ordinance on me.
In already stated the Farman of Imam SMS that is the same Murtaza ALI
and confirms being the same Noor/soul.
and in an earlier Farman of 47 th Imam Aga Ali Shah he has clearly mentioned his status of Ali Allah in simple language and stating Allah
(word n name of Allah came from ALI).
So 'what is Imam to me'?
Confirming my absolute belief in above two farmans and many many others
one linking Hazar Imam with Ali
and Status ALI Allah said in other Farman.
There is NO if,but,or rocket science logic and suppose stories to challenge n condemn it.by me .
So MHI of an Ismaili is Moula Ali and who is Allah himself on Earth.
This is plain belief n conviction.
Belief being conviction which cannot be seen and at time proved physically can be argued by many to see Imam as a plain normal looking
behaving human being on Earth.
They are also right at there own level.
If you do not trust the Farman ,our wordings in our Dua n tasbish.
It means U lack trust in words Of Imam, Dua ,Tasbih.
You are cursing yourself to shallow belief by default by being born an Ismaile and as worse as an devil or any orthodox Shariati of your non belief.
Even moderate Shariati consider him as Sayyed " An ordinary soul from the lineage of Prophet".Little more respect given to ant normal muslim."
Too much of stand against the Farman of Imam for the sake of debate is like calling for curse in your next phase of Life.
Even downgrade from borderline suspicious Tariqati status to Shariati in next life From Shariat to Tariqat could be few hundred Life cycles of Ignorance n disbelief.
I also some time play a role of devil's advocate in my consultancy service
to manipulate.tear apart and distort the facts of a case for professional reasons even at time I may be not on the right side because the company seeking consultancy was not on the right side.I stay helpless n service them with all my Intellectual ability
The answer should be very simple. A two liner or a paragraph for each one of my question would suffice. Please write your answers in below space. Then we can proceed.
Question:
1. What's so wrong with what has been approved by MHI, regarding concept of God and Imam? Did you try to reflect and see what it really means?
answer:______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
2. What's Allah (God) according to you? [Please spare us the saying Ali-ila=Allah, because you are not making any sence].
answer:______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
3. What's Imam according to you? [Please spare us by saying Ali-ila=Allah, because you are not making any sence].
answer:______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The questions in the above post do not provide for the fact that Mowlana Hazar Imam's Farmans can be interpreted differently by 2 different persons so they may agree that Imam is never wrong but still interpret the guidance according o their own beliefs and upbringing. This is why the Imam talks of Pluralism even in matter of faith.
Then even with the same word people have different perception. For example one colour can be called blue by both people because whatever colour they see, they have called it blue since birth but both have seen a different shade since birth and attached the word blue to it.
Then even with the same word people have different perception. For example one colour can be called blue by both people because whatever colour they see, they have called it blue since birth but both have seen a different shade since birth and attached the word blue to it.
Admin wrote:The questions in the above post do not provide for the fact that Mowlana Hazar Imam's Farmans can be interpreted differently by 2 different persons so they may agree that Imam is never wrong but still interpret the guidance according o their own beliefs and upbringing. This is why the Imam talks of Pluralism even in matter of faith.
Then even with the same word people have different perception. For example one colour can be called blue by both people because whatever colour they see, they have called it blue since birth but both have seen a different shade since birth and attached the word blue to it.
What I really want to know -- for my own benifit and for everyone else's benifit for that matter -- is to findout from other participants, what's so not correct about the resolution that was approved by MHI, regarding concept of God and Imam, that he's so worked up? I am putting it here for the sake of argument.
@nuresi - Please tell me what's so wrong with these two concept?
Concept of God
Concept of Imamthe concept of God in the Ismaili Tariqah should be taught with emphasis on the absolute transcendence of God aligned with Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. As such, God is not a *person* or a *personal being* in Ismaili thought.
In the history of Isma'ili thought, the Personal aspect of God [known as the Divine Names and Attributes] were seen as belonging not to God's Essence but to a secondary level of reality i.e. Universal Intellect [Nur of Imamat].
Concepts that are explained in Farameen mubarak are directly subject to observer's level of understanding and preception. For murids (Mustajeb), the way to be inspired is through tah'leem (Teaching) of Farameen mubarak through Muhalem (Dai/Pir). Where as for Dai/Pir/Hujjat, the inspiration is through taiyyid(Divin inspiration) from the Imam. Unless, we don't seek proper knowledge (tah'leem), inspiration can not come easily.
The other thing I want to mention is the most participant use (believe) that Soul and Nur of Imamat are one and the same for the Imams.
My understanding is that Soul (individual Soul of the Imams) and the devine Nur of Imamat are totally two different entities.
When Imams say, I am the same level/status of Imam Ali or we are from one Nur; I don't believe the Imams mean we are one person. But rather, Imams are from the Same Nur of Imamat or rather manifestation of the Nur of Imamat.
To me,
There is a big difference between MHI delivers farman in DIDAR HALL where jamat gathered for didar, and MHI delivers a speech in social gatherings where non Ismailis are also present!
So, basically relys on speeches of MHI and ignore the farmans is not a wise decision for tret or anybody else too if you are Ismaili.
Once SMS told " my farmans are different for my murids then what I tells in public"
"Amara farmano Amari jamat mate ane bija loko mate alag hoy chhe"
I do not think this topic need more clarification than this but I know some" Adial Tatto"will not agree on this and will keep repeating same question again and again.
There is a big difference between MHI delivers farman in DIDAR HALL where jamat gathered for didar, and MHI delivers a speech in social gatherings where non Ismailis are also present!
So, basically relys on speeches of MHI and ignore the farmans is not a wise decision for tret or anybody else too if you are Ismaili.
Once SMS told " my farmans are different for my murids then what I tells in public"
"Amara farmano Amari jamat mate ane bija loko mate alag hoy chhe"
I do not think this topic need more clarification than this but I know some" Adial Tatto"will not agree on this and will keep repeating same question again and again.
Please kindly show me, where have I not concurred with Farameen Mubarak? As an Ismaili, I really don't think there's a need for me to tell you (or for you to tell me) the importance of Farameen. Please try and understand the question first, then draw a conclusion.agakhani wrote:To me,
There is a big difference between MHI delivers farman in DIDAR HALL where jamat gathered for didar, and MHI delivers a speech in social gatherings where non Ismailis are also present!
So, basically relys on speeches of MHI and ignore the farmans is not a wise decision for tret or anybody else too if you are Ismaili.
Once SMS told " my farmans are different for my murids then what I tells in public"
"Amara farmano Amari jamat mate ane bija loko mate alag hoy chhe"
I do not think this topic need more clarification than this but I know some" Adial Tatto"will not agree on this and will keep repeating same question again and again.
To tret;Ya Ali Madad.
You have asked question which may contain many alphabets,I will surely answer the concept papers n not conviction papers not coming from lips of the Imam.
Two line line to second n third question.
2. God is what I feel of my soul within me and Identified as MHI( as noor n person both) as a part of baatin Didar blessed upon me at the age of 14.
3. Imam to me at tariqat physical eyes level guider of time embedded with Noor of Allah.Beyond that is one conviction or Imaan.
as for the first question,I have asked few scholars in my city.( forum member can give their POV if any in my below academic queries)
what period it was?, what was the circumstances than in 1975?,what was convictions status of leaders who drafed the resolutions?, defination of the word 'Farman' and approvals in matters of faith?,whatis difference between between thw word;Faith' and the words 'Religious matters'?. Does approval invaildates the farmans,dua,tasbih recited daily?
and few other questions.
Just awaiting academic info from to answer that.( I have already absolute n irrevocable answer ready with me).
Before I answer that.
I have 10 questions .5 at a time.
which you have compulsorily have to answer n choose one alphabet
of A or B only.
You have asked question which may contain many alphabets,I will surely answer the concept papers n not conviction papers not coming from lips of the Imam.
Two line line to second n third question.
2. God is what I feel of my soul within me and Identified as MHI( as noor n person both) as a part of baatin Didar blessed upon me at the age of 14.
3. Imam to me at tariqat physical eyes level guider of time embedded with Noor of Allah.Beyond that is one conviction or Imaan.
as for the first question,I have asked few scholars in my city.( forum member can give their POV if any in my below academic queries)
what period it was?, what was the circumstances than in 1975?,what was convictions status of leaders who drafed the resolutions?, defination of the word 'Farman' and approvals in matters of faith?,whatis difference between between thw word;Faith' and the words 'Religious matters'?. Does approval invaildates the farmans,dua,tasbih recited daily?
and few other questions.
Just awaiting academic info from to answer that.( I have already absolute n irrevocable answer ready with me).
Before I answer that.
I have 10 questions .5 at a time.
which you have compulsorily have to answer n choose one alphabet
of A or B only.
nuseri wrote: as for the first question,I have asked few scholars in my city.( forum member can give their POV if any in my below academic queries)
what period it was?, what was the circumstances than in 1975?,what was convictions status of leaders who drafed the resolutions?, defination of the word 'Farman' and approvals in matters of faith?,whatis difference between between thw word;Faith' and the words 'Religious matters'?. Does approval invaildates the farmans,dua,tasbih recited daily?
and few other questions.
Just awaiting academic info from to answer that.( I have already absolute n irrevocable answer ready with me).
Before I answer that.
I have 10 questions .5 at a time.
which you have compulsorily have to answer n choose one alphabet
of A or B only.
Thank you for replying to my two questions.
About my question number 1, let's put aside all those factors about leaders belief status, circumstances, etc, etc,. I asked you, specifically what do you see wrong with those concepts? Is there anything wrong with those two concepts? If yes, what is it? It should be really simple, and we don't need to answer 10 other questions, just to answer this one simple question.
Everyone's welcome to participate and give their POV, but let's start with you. Once you answered this, then I can gladly move on with your questions, whether these concepts invalidates previous Farameen or Du'a Mubarak or Tasbih (I can tell you that it does not invalidate, more details to come, after your reply to my question #1)...
So you are now relying on academic info? I recall correctly, you had stated that academic knowledge is useless and one shouldn't bother with it.nuseri wrote:To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
As I am awaiting academic info from scholars.There are now 12 set of questions requiring just one alphabet answer, I will post 4 at a time for peaceful sleep for you.
Besides, I really don't see why "other scholars" answer should have an impact on what think is correct? That tells me that you don't know the answer and rely on someone else?
What I concluded from your replies and how you reflect on it is the following.
You are actually implying 2 things here:
1. You imply that what was approved my MHI, about the concept of God and Imam, was actually crafted by someone else (other than MHI Himself).
2. You also imply that what was approved by MHI about the concept of God and Imam is not correct.
I challenged you on both of your assertions as follow.
In response to your assumption #1: I said "in matters of Faith, MHI alone enjoys full authority in interpretation of faith"
In response to you assumption #2: I asked you a very specific question, which you still failed to say anything, WHAT DO YOU WRONG WITH THE CONCEPT OF GOD AND IMAM, that was approved by MHI.
My friend, if you don't have any answers that's totally fine. No one knows everything. It's better to decently accept rather giving inaccurate information.
Btw, the reason why I am curious to know your respond is for my own benefit alone; no other intention is meant.
To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
Curiosity kills the cat n donkies as well.
It late night in Quebec now.
Very simple question no 1 out of 12.
please reply A or B.no explanations needed.
Do you believe n absolute follow our beloved MHI farmayeen.
as HE is your absolute 'Spiritual /Holy Father"?
A) Yes B) No.
Your answer is your Faith/Imaan.
As for the resolution It was a planned tactical approval ,which I would call it a "Peanut strategy" I will prove that as ease.
Sleep tight.
Curiosity kills the cat n donkies as well.
It late night in Quebec now.
Very simple question no 1 out of 12.
please reply A or B.no explanations needed.
Do you believe n absolute follow our beloved MHI farmayeen.
as HE is your absolute 'Spiritual /Holy Father"?
A) Yes B) No.
Your answer is your Faith/Imaan.
As for the resolution It was a planned tactical approval ,which I would call it a "Peanut strategy" I will prove that as ease.
Sleep tight.
sounds like complex question fallacynuseri wrote: please reply A or B.no explanations needed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
nuseri wrote:To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
Curiosity kills the cat n donkies as well.
It late night in Quebec now.
Very simple question no 1 out of 12.
please reply A or B.no explanations needed.
Do you believe n absolute follow our beloved MHI farmayeen.
as HE is your absolute 'Spiritual /Holy Father"?
A) Yes B) No.
Your answer is your Faith/Imaan.
As for the resolution It was a planned tactical approval ,which I would call it a "Peanut strategy" I will prove that as ease.
Sleep tight.
Curiosity is rooted in human nature. Without it, one would lose the chance of motivation and inspiration. And btw, curiosity doesn't kill donkies and cats; it's the lack (absence) of intellect that does! Intellect can be nurished by receiving tah'leem (Teaching) from Muhaleem-e-Sadiq (Dai's / Pir's), who's work you repeatedly refused in your previous replies!
Now, about your question: It is as if you ask a christian if he believes in Jesus. If you did ask such a question from a christian, you'd probably get a slap accross the face. lol, you know what I mean.
But, I am respectful to my spiritual brothers, so of course answer is A).
So, my assumptions were correct about you! That a) you believe that what was approved by MHI was crafted by someone else other than MHI. and b) it's simply not the reality.
Now, you have absolutly no answer to tell me what is wrong with the concept of Imam and God that was approved!
You also contradict/violate the very belief and principal of Ismailie, and the very important artical of Ismailie constitution, which is the following.
In matters of faith, MHI and MHI alone, enjoys the full authority in the interpretation of faith!.
I very much believe that concept of God and Imam is one of the very important element of Shia faith, and apart from MHI, no one else should have any authority to put any kind of description.
My good friend, from where I see, you don't have any framework of belief and absolutly no idea about ismailie doctrine, theology and school of thoughts.
I wish you well though.
Ya Ali madad.
Before I give my two line answer to conference resolutions.
Ther are few points to be noted very carefully as I reach my POV only after 360 degrees evaluation of the matter.( I do that in my consultancy sevices for the masterminds in their domain.)
the year 1975 was when petro dollar was ruling the order of day.A rich sharaiti country had very strong influence on poor muslim countries.
It was the time few years before siver jubilee year.
During this all the blue prints,Plan and permissions for various AKDN
institution and IIS were to be set up in next 5 -10 years.
80% of then Islamic disregard MHI and his actvities.
39 years hence over 75% of Islamic countries extend invitation to MHI to visit with honour.
In these Years very important plan of AKU university for finer permissions were getting tough to get autonomous status of AKU and diplomatic status AKF set up in Pakistan. and also to set up AKF network in Bangladesh. was being pursued. One country played meddling role against the Imamat.
Our leader were face with embarrassing questions out of our Ginan books
of Tariqa board which was available in public domain ( farmans were not available in public domain) to answer to Shariati official on Ismaili's conviction of MHI in verbatim.
The words precisely used in resolution 'to be Taught'
and NOT to be fully implemented in our dua tasbih and absolute belief etc.
The resolutionpassed was to satisfy n impress upon the outsiders nosing into out trariqa.( a peanut strategy).
IT WAS TO BECOME A PAGE ( MAY BE in DEEP FREEZE BY NOW) in teaching material for primary level students. and Nothing more.
after that all teaching material has been taken over by IIS,who diluted further in affair of 'religious matters'.
Material of board from academic sense is much inferior to Ginan n Qasidas
of the sufi sagas of our faith.
Imam has used the word Faith,where his say is Final. there are other two words "Religious Matter" where 'Tariqa Board' and IIS smart cookies input and recommendations has a role in approvals sought by Them.
( i.e.for distributing Zura in mandi Majlis,etc) many petty issues relating
to traditions and Not the Tariqa.
This was one such lowl level tactical approval to portray MHI to those who hated Imamat from the word GO.
There are 3 type of Approvals observed first desired approval,tactical approval and aproval sought by Force n pressure.
If Jamat seek approval of' Time n knowledge' in golden Jubilee period.
It was a 'desired approval".
If Admin approves posting of an Imam Hater Shariati endlessly assuming
that Shariati may be an ex Tariqati and may come back to the fold again.
Admin approval is a Tactical one here.
for forced approval I have explained before
An extract of Ginan of pure haqiqat level taught in our religious schools
during 1975 period.An extract from one of it
" EJI AAL ALI ISLAMSHAH RAJA
ALLAH EHI IMAM."
This printed material in public domain annoyed Sharait'is where permission was being sought.
It was tough to defend our explain this Ginan to non Ismails by the leaders
hence a conference n resolution to distract the outsiders to the resolution.
THERE WAS NO FARMAN BY MHI THEN TO ABSOLUTELY FOLLOW THAT resolution.
AS THEIR FAITH BUT UNDERSTAND GINAN N FOLLOW FARMAN WAS THERE.
IT DID NOT CHANGE ANY PART OF R DUA N TASBIH.
As I had explained the religious material of Pir ,Dai (noor) and low level academic material is like starters in a part of lavish meal spread.
here the leader as a part of religious matter added one a starter dish of 'PEANUT' along with dry fruits starters of the dai and Indian rich n tasty starters of the Pirs.
This I would call a page added in long frozen paper in syllabus to be 'TAUGHT' at Tariqat level.
Human do not go gaga over peanuts only monkies do.
When we go for picnic/outing in open area where monkies tries to snatch the food kept in open oof all.
peanuts are carried along to feed the monkies so that THEY DONOT SNOOP INTO LAVISH MEAL SPREAD n spoil it.
Only a fool a would go mad over peanuts over n above the 10 better starters available and Valid n still fresh as on today.
As for me I would to remind the story of Nuseri as siad by out Imam
personally.
he was ordered by H Ali personally who was with his Asabs
to sat that He (ALI) was not Allah not once but 70 times of killing and raising him to Life.
He DISOBEYED the Farman/order of H.Ali at Tariqat level and kept saying
to H.Ali that 'You are Allah'
An inside story .The same Nuseri was inspired By none other than ALI
at Noorani Level to say n express his conviction.
HE OBEYED TO NOOR DIRECTING WITHIN HIM and DISOBEYED the same
entity at Tariqat level.
Rest is history.
For me It would be same id ALI ask to say that "He is Mazhar of Allah"
I would disobey at Tariqat level and say that Ali+lah=Allah and much greater than Allah.I will spell out my conviction nothing less
Then come what may be in store for me.
Can anybody guess my two liner answer to the resolution?.
Before I give my two line answer to conference resolutions.
Ther are few points to be noted very carefully as I reach my POV only after 360 degrees evaluation of the matter.( I do that in my consultancy sevices for the masterminds in their domain.)
the year 1975 was when petro dollar was ruling the order of day.A rich sharaiti country had very strong influence on poor muslim countries.
It was the time few years before siver jubilee year.
During this all the blue prints,Plan and permissions for various AKDN
institution and IIS were to be set up in next 5 -10 years.
80% of then Islamic disregard MHI and his actvities.
39 years hence over 75% of Islamic countries extend invitation to MHI to visit with honour.
In these Years very important plan of AKU university for finer permissions were getting tough to get autonomous status of AKU and diplomatic status AKF set up in Pakistan. and also to set up AKF network in Bangladesh. was being pursued. One country played meddling role against the Imamat.
Our leader were face with embarrassing questions out of our Ginan books
of Tariqa board which was available in public domain ( farmans were not available in public domain) to answer to Shariati official on Ismaili's conviction of MHI in verbatim.
The words precisely used in resolution 'to be Taught'
and NOT to be fully implemented in our dua tasbih and absolute belief etc.
The resolutionpassed was to satisfy n impress upon the outsiders nosing into out trariqa.( a peanut strategy).
IT WAS TO BECOME A PAGE ( MAY BE in DEEP FREEZE BY NOW) in teaching material for primary level students. and Nothing more.
after that all teaching material has been taken over by IIS,who diluted further in affair of 'religious matters'.
Material of board from academic sense is much inferior to Ginan n Qasidas
of the sufi sagas of our faith.
Imam has used the word Faith,where his say is Final. there are other two words "Religious Matter" where 'Tariqa Board' and IIS smart cookies input and recommendations has a role in approvals sought by Them.
( i.e.for distributing Zura in mandi Majlis,etc) many petty issues relating
to traditions and Not the Tariqa.
This was one such lowl level tactical approval to portray MHI to those who hated Imamat from the word GO.
There are 3 type of Approvals observed first desired approval,tactical approval and aproval sought by Force n pressure.
If Jamat seek approval of' Time n knowledge' in golden Jubilee period.
It was a 'desired approval".
If Admin approves posting of an Imam Hater Shariati endlessly assuming
that Shariati may be an ex Tariqati and may come back to the fold again.
Admin approval is a Tactical one here.
for forced approval I have explained before
An extract of Ginan of pure haqiqat level taught in our religious schools
during 1975 period.An extract from one of it
" EJI AAL ALI ISLAMSHAH RAJA
ALLAH EHI IMAM."
This printed material in public domain annoyed Sharait'is where permission was being sought.
It was tough to defend our explain this Ginan to non Ismails by the leaders
hence a conference n resolution to distract the outsiders to the resolution.
THERE WAS NO FARMAN BY MHI THEN TO ABSOLUTELY FOLLOW THAT resolution.
AS THEIR FAITH BUT UNDERSTAND GINAN N FOLLOW FARMAN WAS THERE.
IT DID NOT CHANGE ANY PART OF R DUA N TASBIH.
As I had explained the religious material of Pir ,Dai (noor) and low level academic material is like starters in a part of lavish meal spread.
here the leader as a part of religious matter added one a starter dish of 'PEANUT' along with dry fruits starters of the dai and Indian rich n tasty starters of the Pirs.
This I would call a page added in long frozen paper in syllabus to be 'TAUGHT' at Tariqat level.
Human do not go gaga over peanuts only monkies do.
When we go for picnic/outing in open area where monkies tries to snatch the food kept in open oof all.
peanuts are carried along to feed the monkies so that THEY DONOT SNOOP INTO LAVISH MEAL SPREAD n spoil it.
Only a fool a would go mad over peanuts over n above the 10 better starters available and Valid n still fresh as on today.
As for me I would to remind the story of Nuseri as siad by out Imam
personally.
he was ordered by H Ali personally who was with his Asabs
to sat that He (ALI) was not Allah not once but 70 times of killing and raising him to Life.
He DISOBEYED the Farman/order of H.Ali at Tariqat level and kept saying
to H.Ali that 'You are Allah'
An inside story .The same Nuseri was inspired By none other than ALI
at Noorani Level to say n express his conviction.
HE OBEYED TO NOOR DIRECTING WITHIN HIM and DISOBEYED the same
entity at Tariqat level.
Rest is history.
For me It would be same id ALI ask to say that "He is Mazhar of Allah"
I would disobey at Tariqat level and say that Ali+lah=Allah and much greater than Allah.I will spell out my conviction nothing less
Then come what may be in store for me.
Can anybody guess my two liner answer to the resolution?.
nuseri wrote:Ya Ali madad.
Before I give my two line answer to conference resolutions.
Ther are few points to be noted very carefully as I reach my POV only after 360 degrees evaluation of the matter.( I do that in my consultancy sevices for the masterminds in their domain.)
the year 1975 was when petro dollar was ruling the order of day.A rich sharaiti country had very strong influence on poor muslim countries.
It was the time few years before siver jubilee year.
During this all the blue prints,Plan and permissions for various AKDN
institution and IIS were to be set up in next 5 -10 years.
80% of then Islamic disregard MHI and his actvities.
39 years hence over 75% of Islamic countries extend invitation to MHI to visit with honour.
In these Years very important plan of AKU university for finer permissions were getting tough to get autonomous status of AKU and diplomatic status AKF set up in Pakistan. and also to set up AKF network in Bangladesh. was being pursued. One country played meddling role against the Imamat.
Our leader were face with embarrassing questions out of our Ginan books
of Tariqa board which was available in public domain ( farmans were not available in public domain) to answer to Shariati official on Ismaili's conviction of MHI in verbatim.
The words precisely used in resolution 'to be Taught'
and NOT to be fully implemented in our dua tasbih and absolute belief etc.
The resolutionpassed was to satisfy n impress upon the outsiders nosing into out trariqa.( a peanut strategy).
IT WAS TO BECOME A PAGE ( MAY BE in DEEP FREEZE BY NOW) in teaching material for primary level students. and Nothing more.
after that all teaching material has been taken over by IIS,who diluted further in affair of 'religious matters'.
Material of board from academic sense is much inferior to Ginan n Qasidas
of the sufi sagas of our faith.
Imam has used the word Faith,where his say is Final. there are other two words "Religious Matter" where 'Tariqa Board' and IIS smart cookies input and recommendations has a role in approvals sought by Them.
( i.e.for distributing Zura in mandi Majlis,etc) many petty issues relating
to traditions and Not the Tariqa.
This was one such lowl level tactical approval to portray MHI to those who hated Imamat from the word GO.
There are 3 type of Approvals observed first desired approval,tactical approval and aproval sought by Force n pressure.
If Jamat seek approval of' Time n knowledge' in golden Jubilee period.
It was a 'desired approval".
If Admin approves posting of an Imam Hater Shariati endlessly assuming
that Shariati may be an ex Tariqati and may come back to the fold again.
Admin approval is a Tactical one here.
for forced approval I have explained before
An extract of Ginan of pure haqiqat level taught in our religious schools
during 1975 period.An extract from one of it
" EJI AAL ALI ISLAMSHAH RAJA
ALLAH EHI IMAM."
This printed material in public domain annoyed Sharait'is where permission was being sought.
It was tough to defend our explain this Ginan to non Ismails by the leaders
hence a conference n resolution to distract the outsiders to the resolution.
THERE WAS NO FARMAN BY MHI THEN TO ABSOLUTELY FOLLOW THAT resolution.
AS THEIR FAITH BUT UNDERSTAND GINAN N FOLLOW FARMAN WAS THERE.
IT DID NOT CHANGE ANY PART OF R DUA N TASBIH.
As I had explained the religious material of Pir ,Dai (noor) and low level academic material is like starters in a part of lavish meal spread.
here the leader as a part of religious matter added one a starter dish of 'PEANUT' along with dry fruits starters of the dai and Indian rich n tasty starters of the Pirs.
This I would call a page added in long frozen paper in syllabus to be 'TAUGHT' at Tariqat level.
Human do not go gaga over peanuts only monkies do.
When we go for picnic/outing in open area where monkies tries to snatch the food kept in open oof all.
peanuts are carried along to feed the monkies so that THEY DONOT SNOOP INTO LAVISH MEAL SPREAD n spoil it.
Only a fool a would go mad over peanuts over n above the 10 better starters available and Valid n still fresh as on today.
As for me I would to remind the story of Nuseri as siad by out Imam
personally.
he was ordered by H Ali personally who was with his Asabs
to sat that He (ALI) was not Allah not once but 70 times of killing and raising him to Life.
He DISOBEYED the Farman/order of H.Ali at Tariqat level and kept saying
to H.Ali that 'You are Allah'
An inside story .The same Nuseri was inspired By none other than ALI
at Noorani Level to say n express his conviction.
HE OBEYED TO NOOR DIRECTING WITHIN HIM and DISOBEYED the same
entity at Tariqat level.
Rest is history.
For me It would be same id ALI ask to say that "He is Mazhar of Allah"
I would disobey at Tariqat level and say that Ali+lah=Allah and much greater than Allah.I will spell out my conviction nothing less
Then come what may be in store for me.
Can anybody guess my two liner answer to the resolution?.
well, I am really not interested in your long-wended, beating around bush answer, really.
It's a very simple question I asked you. You aparantly see something very seriously wrong with these concepts! So, why are you so shy to tell us what's wrong? The only possible explanation, I could think of, is that you really don't understand what does it say.
Concept of God
Concept of Imamthe concept of God in the Ismaili Tariqah should be taught with emphasis on the absolute transcendence of God aligned with Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. As such, God is not a *person* or a *personal being* in Ismaili thought.
In the history of Isma'ili thought, the Personal aspect of God [known as the Divine Names and Attributes] were seen as belonging not to God's Essence but to a secondary level of reality i.e. Universal Intellect [Nur of Imamat].
To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
My final Salvo is still pending of question no1.
I have given my understanding to of question no 2 n 3 of what is Imam
to me and God to me.( no copy paste as I have a mind of my own)
Understanding of concept paper can differ person to person.I do not sing the tune of the leaders.IT IS NOT A FARMAN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Concept papers are academics of religion for a part of syllabus then.
'Academics of religion' are are very very different to 'Inspiration of Faith.' by noorani hidayat blessed upon the Pir n Dais
material both of them being approved.
Academics of religion can be interpreted/ tweaked by board or institution or IIS,whether approved or not.
when the word 'TAUGHT' is used, It is specifically to change the phrases or lines in teaching material of academic in nature.
You have answer question no 2.
I will cross examine only after all the question are answered
My final Salvo is still pending of question no1.
I have given my understanding to of question no 2 n 3 of what is Imam
to me and God to me.( no copy paste as I have a mind of my own)
Understanding of concept paper can differ person to person.I do not sing the tune of the leaders.IT IS NOT A FARMAN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Concept papers are academics of religion for a part of syllabus then.
'Academics of religion' are are very very different to 'Inspiration of Faith.' by noorani hidayat blessed upon the Pir n Dais
material both of them being approved.
Academics of religion can be interpreted/ tweaked by board or institution or IIS,whether approved or not.
when the word 'TAUGHT' is used, It is specifically to change the phrases or lines in teaching material of academic in nature.
You have answer question no 2.
I will cross examine only after all the question are answered
nuseri wrote:To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
My final Salvo is still pending of question no1.
I have given my understanding to of question no 2 n 3 of what is Imam
to me and God to me.( no copy paste as I have a mind of my own)
Understanding of concept paper can differ person to person.I do not sing the tune of the leaders.IT IS NOT A FARMAN IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Concept papers are academics of religion for a part of syllabus then.
'Academics of religion' are are very very different to 'Inspiration of Faith.' by noorani hidayat blessed upon the Pir n Dais
material both of them being approved.
Academics of religion can be interpreted/ tweaked by board or institution or IIS,whether approved or not.
when the word 'TAUGHT' is used, It is specifically to change the phrases or lines in teaching material of academic in nature.
You have answer question no 2.
I will cross examine only after all the question are answered
Well, still you didn't answer my question.
Forget leaders, IIS, the word taught. Forget everything!
It's very simple and not rocket science. What do you see wrong with the two concepts?
Very simple question. At least be humble in your ignorance.
BTW, I do have the answer to your question, but only in any debate, you answer a question, you get a question. I answered your first question, and you will get the answer when you answwer this question.
There's a saying "do it to others before they do it to you"nuseri wrote:To tret:Ya Ali Madad.
Other questions from No.3-12 are in queue.
The questions are very simple to read and answer n the choice is also given to make it easier. even a 10 year old Ismalie attending JK regularly can answer like a champion.
So you are avoiding my question by asking your own question. If you want to be respected, respect others. If you want answer, give answer (right or wrong).
I very much believe you are mistaken. And wrongly interpret the Kalina. I know exactly what you are referring to.nuseri wrote:To Tret:Ya Ali Madad.
Now comes a simple question no 3.Only 9 more to go.
Do you accept and have absolute Faith/Imaan in the Kalima we recite at the end of our Tasbih?
A) Yes. B) No.
Ash'had-u-an'ah Ali-ul-Amir-ul-Momineen Ali-ullah
You are specifically referring to last part. Now let me ask you similar and simpler question and you will find your answer in it.
When a Muslim says:
La-illaha il-Allah, Muhammad Rasool-ullah.
What "Rasul-ullah" means?
What " Ali-ullah" means?
If you its not clear, then I will chime in.
Brother tret
ASAK
La-illaha il-Allah, Muhammad Rasool-ullah.
It means
there is no god but Allah, Muhammad is his Prophet
Rasool-ullah means Rasool of Allah
Ash'had-u-an'ah Ali-ul-Amir-ul-Momineen
Pledge that Hz Ali is leader of momineen
Ali-ullah
Now what this means?
I do not want to derail your dialogue but please elaborate afterwords.
Salaam
ASAK
La-illaha il-Allah, Muhammad Rasool-ullah.
It means
there is no god but Allah, Muhammad is his Prophet
Rasool-ullah means Rasool of Allah
Ash'had-u-an'ah Ali-ul-Amir-ul-Momineen
Pledge that Hz Ali is leader of momineen
Ali-ullah
Now what this means?
I do not want to derail your dialogue but please elaborate afterwords.
Salaam
zznoor wrote:Brother tret
ASAK
La-illaha il-Allah, Muhammad Rasool-ullah.
It means
there is no god but Allah, Muhammad is his Prophet
Rasool-ullah means Rasool of Allah
Ash'had-u-an'ah Ali-ul-Amir-ul-Momineen
Pledge that Hz Ali is leader of momineen
Ali-ullah
Now what this means?
I do not want to derail your dialogue but please elaborate afterwords.
Salaam
Allow me to answe, if you really dont know.
Third part of Kalima of Nizari Ismailis (Aliyun Ali-Ullah) differs from Twelvers (Aliyun Wali-Ullah).
Aliyun Ali-Ullah = Ali is Exalted of God
Aliyun Wali-Ullah = Ali is Friend of God
Kilimas are just statements/declarations believed to be true for the believers.zznoor wrote:I know various versions.Allow me to answe, if you really dont know.
JAK
Where can I find third part in Quran?
The Shia kalima can be based on 004:059
"O believers, obey God, and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you"
You can add few more statements if you like and believe in them eg "God is the Master of the Day of Judgement", "Jesus is the Spirit of God" and so on.
I hope Tret and Nuseri can get back on their discussion.
To tret:Ya Ali madad.
The question in 'What is wrong with resolution of the conference?
Firstly the circumstance is very very important when certain issue come from the leaders and and not as Farman.
during that period,Each had its own meaning of the the word GOD and Imam in communication to those outside of tariqa.
Imamat office then did not have professional PRO set up then.
In order as to communicate to various government.donors,media,Shariati with influence and other.
in various countries.
A standard definition of ACADEMIC IN NATURE.was intelligently drafted
by sharp legal mind then for one standard stereo type to concern people wishing to know the exact view of Ismailis toward Imam n God.
The same wok is taken over by Imamat Secretariat and IIS and the definition may gone futher changes.
It was NOT a direction of faith for Ismailis
only IMAM has the absolute right on that by virtue of Farmans
98% of Ismailis do not know about the resolution in the first place
and and they have Farmans ,Ginan n Qasidas for directing and inspiring thier faith.
The resolutions drafting was made by people like you n me may be elder
in age than us at that time
SO DOES OUR COLLECTIVE CONCEPT OF FOLLOWERS BECOME DIRECTION OF FAITH?
NO NO NO.
Concept meanS an idea or plan which has a shelf life,iT can die down if there are no takers
I would say not even peanuts a starters in a a lavish meal like Ginan n Qasida ,Which are Noor as said By our Imams.
I do not see any thing wrong in spelling or grammar of the definition/Concept.
I see it in right earnest (need of the hour then) by the leaders NOT IMAM
a resolution as to have standard PRO hand out to be used by all leaders
and volunteers who interact with Non Ismailis then for the cause of Imamat
I acknowledge and accept the resolutions as a good academic study material and a guideline for us when we tackle Non Ismaili diplomatically.
I appreciate that your academic search has bought to light this forgotten
resolutions.
If I would have in the team of drafting committee I may have tweaked
it little more in a refined diplomatic manner.
The question in 'What is wrong with resolution of the conference?
Firstly the circumstance is very very important when certain issue come from the leaders and and not as Farman.
during that period,Each had its own meaning of the the word GOD and Imam in communication to those outside of tariqa.
Imamat office then did not have professional PRO set up then.
In order as to communicate to various government.donors,media,Shariati with influence and other.
in various countries.
A standard definition of ACADEMIC IN NATURE.was intelligently drafted
by sharp legal mind then for one standard stereo type to concern people wishing to know the exact view of Ismailis toward Imam n God.
The same wok is taken over by Imamat Secretariat and IIS and the definition may gone futher changes.
It was NOT a direction of faith for Ismailis
only IMAM has the absolute right on that by virtue of Farmans
98% of Ismailis do not know about the resolution in the first place
and and they have Farmans ,Ginan n Qasidas for directing and inspiring thier faith.
The resolutions drafting was made by people like you n me may be elder
in age than us at that time
SO DOES OUR COLLECTIVE CONCEPT OF FOLLOWERS BECOME DIRECTION OF FAITH?
NO NO NO.
Concept meanS an idea or plan which has a shelf life,iT can die down if there are no takers
I would say not even peanuts a starters in a a lavish meal like Ginan n Qasida ,Which are Noor as said By our Imams.
I do not see any thing wrong in spelling or grammar of the definition/Concept.
I see it in right earnest (need of the hour then) by the leaders NOT IMAM
a resolution as to have standard PRO hand out to be used by all leaders
and volunteers who interact with Non Ismailis then for the cause of Imamat
I acknowledge and accept the resolutions as a good academic study material and a guideline for us when we tackle Non Ismaili diplomatically.
I appreciate that your academic search has bought to light this forgotten
resolutions.
If I would have in the team of drafting committee I may have tweaked
it little more in a refined diplomatic manner.
I appreciate your POV and reply. Surely enough, context and circumstances are important when a political statement is made, by public figures and it must be really given careful thoughts. I also understand how you are analysing this. But, I believe, if we study doctrine of Ismailies and the school of thoughts of Ismailies, way before this resolution (during the Fatimid, the work of great Dai's and Pir's, who's work is now being published and are made available to Jama'at), I don't see anything off about the two concepts in question. Personally, and according to my belief, I honestly don't see anything off (or wrong) with the two concepts. I am not sure if this resolution was addressed exclusively to volunteers and/or ismailie leaders. Even if it was addressed to leaders, then it makes leaders responsible to pass these information to the Jama'at.
You said, that:
I believe, that if we know something, it is our duty and moral responsibility to let others know. Then it's upto the observer, whether to take it, or leave it. So, I am simply asking your stand, if anything is wrong.
At the end of the day, I certainly believe that even within our faith, we have difference of opinion on various topics, simply because we have a very rich and diverse Jama'at, and I really believe that's our strenght. I certainly respect everyone's view and belief, even if that is different than mine. Definitly, I don't expect everyone to agree with what I believe, but I certainly, want to learn from what others know.
and I assume, you have got the answer to your last question about our Shahada? Please if not, I can as well chime in.
You said, that:
Even if this was put together by leaders and approved by MHI, I really believe it's aligned with Ismailie doctrine and theology. And that's why I did pose the question, if according to you it's not correct, please do let us know how and why?SO DOES OUR COLLECTIVE CONCEPT OF FOLLOWERS BECOME DIRECTION OF FAITH?
NO NO NO.
Concept meanS an idea or plan which has a shelf life,iT can die down if there are no takers
I would say not even peanuts a starters in a a lavish meal like Ginan n Qasida ,Which are Noor as said By our Imams.
I believe, that if we know something, it is our duty and moral responsibility to let others know. Then it's upto the observer, whether to take it, or leave it. So, I am simply asking your stand, if anything is wrong.
At the end of the day, I certainly believe that even within our faith, we have difference of opinion on various topics, simply because we have a very rich and diverse Jama'at, and I really believe that's our strenght. I certainly respect everyone's view and belief, even if that is different than mine. Definitly, I don't expect everyone to agree with what I believe, but I certainly, want to learn from what others know.
and I assume, you have got the answer to your last question about our Shahada? Please if not, I can as well chime in.
To tret: Ya Ali Madad.
Question no 4.
Do you absolutely believe,follow and have Faith/Imaan on the Farman of the Imams?
A) Yes B) No.
Still awaiting answer to question NO 2 and 3.
There is one member an intellectual,If you see his postings of last 3 years He had a hardline Tariqati stand and even mocked at some Farmans.
As I observe closely the same member has a conviction of Haqiqati from last 6 months now as I seem to understand from his posting.
Question no 4.
Do you absolutely believe,follow and have Faith/Imaan on the Farman of the Imams?
A) Yes B) No.
Still awaiting answer to question NO 2 and 3.
There is one member an intellectual,If you see his postings of last 3 years He had a hardline Tariqati stand and even mocked at some Farmans.
As I observe closely the same member has a conviction of Haqiqati from last 6 months now as I seem to understand from his posting.