Reincarnation in Islam

Discussion on doctrinal issues
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arlenebatada
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Post by arlenebatada »

kmaherali wrote:
arlenebatada wrote:It is difficult to validate all such claims which are tagged as "scientific". I agree that it is not easy to refute all such claims, but I think that we can consider them as exceptions.
I wouldn't call all these case studies as claims but rather documented evidences..
In the field of science, there is a difference between a theory and an established fact. A theory is something which is not proven to be true, but factors indicate that it 'could' be true. For example, it was a theory in the olden times that the sun revolved around the earth.

A fact, on the other hand, is something which is 'proven' to be 100% true. Anyone can deny a theory, but none can deny a fact. Eg- Law of Gravity is a fact, not a theory. None can deny its existence.

Regrding da'i al-Mauyyad, he was addressed as "the peak of knowledge which none can reach" by Imam al-Mustansirbillah (a.s.). He was the chief da'i during our Fatimid period and he used to say "Had I lived in the days of the Prophet, my position before him would have been, in no way less important than that of Salman. He would have said to me in unequivocal terms, you are a member of my family". He was the master of ta'wil. So his words really matter on this area.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali madad.
Dais do set set or dictate tariqa a bit.but Imam mossly set and defines it.
That day himself was spirutually trying to recollect his soul n status as Salma Faras.very much possible.
Not of the Royal but very much part of Ahle Bayt.
MHI has told that for Diwan Eboo has served the imamat since 1400 years,yet he lived in just last 90 years.
The title Diwan matches to that a status of Ahle bayt.
Not from Ahle bayt but very much of Ahle Bayt.
If that dai is without oxygen somewhere without body in the universe, he would have been BETTER OFF to serve as Shrazi in Fatimid and Like Salam Faras to present MHI.
Major split in Ismailis took place in that Imam time bcoz of those close to then Imam of the time were betrayers
He was a FOOL who desired/boasted the past status and not seek to serve the Noor till eternity.
That is Present /hayul kayum all thru ages on the earth.
I may consider him as quack for time being(till I read all what he wrote/boasted ) or his sayings being fabricated and mis quoted
Follow the living IMAM and not dug up words of dead Dai/Sayyad/Pir.
It reflect bankruptcy of one's mind of not thinking originally with reality of today and the year. 2017 just ahead.
ARE YOU AN ISMAILI or 12er SHI'A?
arlenebatada
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Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:19 am

Post by arlenebatada »

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali madad.
Dais do set set or dictate tariqa a bit.but Imam mossly set and defines it.
That day himself was spirutually trying to recollect his soul n status as Salma Faras.very much possible.
Not of the Royal but very much part of Ahle Bayt.
MHI has told that for Diwan Eboo has served the imamat since 1400 years,yet he lived in just last 90 years.
The title Diwan matches to that a status of Ahle bayt.
Not from Ahle bayt but very much of Ahle Bayt.
If that dai is without oxygen somewhere without body in the universe, he would have been BETTER OFF to serve as Shrazi in Fatimid and Like Salam Faras to present MHI.
Major split in Ismailis took place in that Imam time bcoz of those close to then Imam of the time were betrayers
He was a FOOL who desired/boasted the past status and not seek to serve the Noor till eternity.
That is Present /hayul kayum all thru ages on the earth.
I may consider him as quack for time being(till I read all what he wrote/boasted ) or his sayings being fabricated and mis quoted
Follow the living IMAM and not dug up words of dead Dai/Sayyad/Pir.
It reflect bankruptcy of one's mind of not thinking originally with reality of today and the year. 2017 just ahead.
ARE YOU AN ISMAILI or 12er SHI'A?
Show some respect towards him. He and his ancestors had devoted their entire life in service of our Imams. I'd suggest you read some history.

What he wrote is not called boasting. Was Mansur al-Hallaj boasting when he said "Ana al-Haq"? That line al-Mauyyad writes in his "Diwan al-Muayyad", where he writes "I wish I should get a chance to offer my life as a sacrifice for you, O my Lord. My forefathers and myself have been living in comforts under your patronage and we have never swerved an inch from our devotion to you". All of this is mentioned in the book entitled "Life and Lectures of da'i al-Mauyyad fi al-din al-Shirazi" published by Isma'ilia Association Pakistan

Coming to Hazar Imam(a.s.)'s farmans, most of the Isma'ilis are ignorant. They disregard all the previous teachings due to their lack of knowledge. Imam's job is not to unfold the history and principles of the Tariqah. It is to guide the murids about how they should practice the faith in contemporary times. Yes, Imam sheds light on some theological areas, but only on those which are required to explain the murids about practice of the faith in contemporary times.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

arlenebatada wrote:In the field of science, there is a difference between a theory and an established fact. A theory is something which is not proven to be true, but factors indicate that it 'could' be true. For example, it was a theory in the olden times that the sun revolved around the earth.

A fact, on the other hand, is something which is 'proven' to be 100% true. Anyone can deny a theory, but none can deny a fact. Eg- Law of Gravity is a fact, not a theory. None can deny its existence..
The videos that I have alluded to don't discuss theory. In social sciences when we want to determine the efficacy of a theory, we conduct case studies and gather evidence. In the case of reincarnation there is a growing volume of evidence to suggest its efficacy. It seems you have seen them. I strongly suggest you view them at least.
arlenebatada wrote: Regrding da'i al-Mauyyad, he was addressed as "the peak of knowledge which none can reach" by Imam al-Mustansirbillah (a.s.). He was the chief da'i during our Fatimid period and he used to say "Had I lived in the days of the Prophet, my position before him would have been, in no way less important than that of Salman. He would have said to me in unequivocal terms, you are a member of my family". He was the master of ta'wil. So his words really matter on this area.
No doubt Al Muayyad attained great heights of knowledge, but in our Tariqah there have been many individuals who have attained those heights. For example all the Pirs were bearers of the Noor and were responsible to make Farmans on behalf of the Imam, hence they were considered as having attained perfection in knowledge. MSMS has indicated that the Ginans are the tafsir of the Qur'an and they very clearly indicate the efficacy of reincarnation. Go through this thread, there are Farmans which also allude to reincarnation.

Though it is not something that we should aspire for, but it can happen if we are not careful.
arlenebatada
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Post by arlenebatada »

kmaherali wrote: No doubt Al Muayyad attained great heights of knowledge, but in our Tariqah there have been many individuals who have attained those heights. For example all the Pirs were bearers of the Noor and were responsible to make Farmans on behalf of the Imam, hence they were considered as having attained perfection in knowledge. MSMS has indicated that the Ginans are the tafsir of the Qur'an and they very clearly indicate the efficacy of reincarnation. Go through this thread, there are Farmans which also allude to reincarnation.

Though it is not something that we should aspire for, but it can happen if we are not careful.
No doubt, whatever the Pirs (r.a.) and the Imams (a.s) say is 100% correct. However, we must understand that the Pirs (r.a.) were dealing with people who were not originally Muslims. They were trying to revert these people back to Sirat al-Mustaqeem. These people had their beliefs in reincarnation and so the Pirs had to deal with them that way and so did the Imams in the conterminous times.

There is a hadith of Imam al-Baqir (a.s.):
Zararah narrates that I asked a certain question to Imam al-Baqar (a.s.). He gave me its answer. Another person then asked the same question and the Imam gave him a different answer. Later a third person asked the same question, but the Imam's answer this time was different from the previous two answers. I then asked him: "O, the son of the Messenger (s.a.a.s)! The two persons who just came here to ask you questions were from Iraq and were Shias, yet you gave them contradictory answers". The Imam then answered: "O Zararah! This is good for me as well as for you and this will help us survive and prosper".
(Usool Al Kafi, p.37)

This has always been the practice of our Tariqah. During our Fatimid times, the da'is explained our Tariqah differently to different people. To the Sunni scholars, they taught our Tariqah using the Qur'an, Hadiths and their ta'wil. To the philosophers, they explained using Neo-platonic theories. All this was according to the guidance of the Imams. Likewise, the Pirs explained the Hindus using teachings which bore a resemblance to the Vedas and their other scriptures. This was also reflected in Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (a.s.)'s farmans. However, this in no manner means that they should be regarded as being untrue. But, what it can mean is that there is a very high possibility that those teachings are allegorical. For example, Sayyedna Imam Begam (r.a.) writes in her Ginan Saiyaaji Moore-
"aare kaayaa phulanakee vaaddi
mirag chaare aare ban ko...sayyaa(n)jee
(This body is like a garden of flowers. Deer grazes in this jungle.)

Now this in no way means that there is a deer grazing inside our body. It means that gradually the cells in our body are dying. So O Momins! Rise from your sleep and walk on the spiritual path before death overtakes you.
So what Sayyidna Imam begam (r.a.) writes is not untrue. But it is allegorical because the people cannot understand her if she doesn't use such language or if she uses any scientific terms.

Likewise, what our Pirs (r.a.) and our Imams (a.s.) of adjacent times have talked about reincarnation, it can mean that things 'like' that might be experienced after death. For example, the Qur'an talks about hellfire. Now, after death, there is no body, so how can a physical fire affect the spiritual soul? Does this mean that the Qur'an is wrong? Of course, no! What it can mean is that if we do wrong in this world while we are alive, after death despite us having no body, we will face the pain (or maybe regret) in the world of souls to such an extent that it will be tantamount to our body burning in intense fire.

One more reason why it is difficult to believe in the concept rebirth is because of the concept of stages of improvement in intellect. Mawlana Rumi writes:
I died as mineral and became a plant,
I died as plant and rose to animal,
I died as animal and I was man.

We can see that there is a gradual development in the level of intellect that the soul infuses. Mineral has no intellect and no growth. A plant has growth but no intellect. There is an improvement here. An animal has growth and a tiny speck of intellect. Then comes Man who is far improved than an animal in terms of intellect.
Then Mawlana Rumi further writes:
I will die of being a man, I would rise in angels with wings,
In the next stage, I will die of being an angel I will be transformed into that which is unimaginable.

So we can see that there is a continuous development in the intellect of a soul and abandonment of desires, for without intellect a soul cannot understand Almighty.

Now MAYBE-and when I say maybe I’m speculating over here. A person who in his human form has misused his freewill and remained a slave of his desires, then he has not made any development in his intellect. In this case, a provision- maybe as rebirth in this world or by some other means in the world of hereafter is made.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad.
What Imam and Pirs write and say has baatin content.
If the exact question and answer of Imam Baqir is quoted 100% correctly and translated. I am deeply convinced that
Each answers would have true,relative truth and absolute truth.
Same goes for lower to higher category of audience.
If lower category assumes somebody ( formless,nothingness, faceless,useless,) is above him he speaks to the gallery,as he address as a human being like them.
In Ginan,where Imam begum say,Pakdi leejo maro haath.
She asks ALI to handhold her afte her deathr
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali madad:
Every souls revolve around ALI and given a part of heaven or hell that is this EARTH ,where he himself is.
I personally heard from leader( my relative) to whom and other leaders MHI has before Sir Eboo Pirbhoy was awarded title of DIWAN.
that he is serving the the Imam since 1400 years,they were astonished and reconfirmed with each other to what just MHI said.He did not say that he is Salman Faras.,but the title gave it away.Salman was not from able bayt but a part of.in same Indian royalty,Diwan is not a Royal blood but a part of Royalty.
SAMAJDARO KO ISHARA KAAFI HAI.
get you own video with past life regression and hear your voice
What you were as from past lives.I respect Pir and their work.but classify it as traditions to be upholded and not a Binding Tariqa or Farman to follow.I am ibn ul waqt,so follow MHI not xyz who lived & wrote in their period.
arlenebatada
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Post by arlenebatada »

nuseri wrote: In Ginan,where Imam begum say,Pakdi leejo maro haath.
She asks ALI to handhold her afte her deathr
That's right. Just as we've learned about the story of a water droplet yearning for water in R.E.C. P4 book 3, where that water droplet merges into river (Imam), who takes it to the ocean (Allah). When Sayyidna Imam Begum (r.a.) speaks of 'Ali, she did not mean the person who lived 1400 years ago. She meant about the river (noor of Imam 'Ali (a.s.)) which originates from the ocean (Allah(swt)) and returns back to it.

Just like Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (a.s.) said regarding the following Qur'anic verse:
"..Indeed we belong to Allah , and indeed to Him we will return."
(Holy Qur'an 2:156)

"Shariati people do not understand this. These are things that must be understood, that according to the Ismaili religion, Allah is the Ocean. 'Ali, during his life on earth, was the river separated from the Ocean of the Almighty-separated from it and running towards it-overcoming all material resistances and running towards its origin. The haqqiqati people should understand the meaning of this ayat from a haqqiqati point of view, THIS AYAT MEANS MORE THAN ALL THE REST OF THE QUR'AN.
Then, of course, Pir Sadardin and others have put forward the doctrine- namely that all mu'mins are small streams starting from the earth and joining the ocean with (via) the river (the Imam)..."

(Mission Conference, Dar-es-Salaam, July 1945)
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

arlenebatada wrote:No doubt, whatever the Pirs (r.a.) and the Imams (a.s) say is 100% correct. However, we must understand that the Pirs (r.a.) were dealing with people who were not originally Muslims. They were trying to revert these people back to Sirat al-Mustaqeem. These people had their beliefs in reincarnation and so the Pirs had to deal with them that way and so did the Imams in the conterminous times..
Think about it. We had a glorious Fatimid empire in a Muslim land and now Ismailism has vanished from Egypt. On the other hand, Satpanth tradition established in India is vibrant today across many countries. It is this tradition that has made it possible to establish modern institutions such as the IIS.

So who is better? The Sunnis of Egypt or the Hindus who were converted to Ismailism.

Infact our Pirs established the Satpanth tradition in India because they felt it was a fertile ground to establish a rich tradition.
arlenebatada wrote: Then Mawlana Rumi further writes:
I will die of being a man, I would rise in angels with wings,
In the next stage, I will die of being an angel I will be transformed into that which is unimaginable..
Mowlana Rumi has also said:

"For ages you have come and gone,
courting this delusion,
For ages you have run from the pain
and forfeited the ecstacy
So come return to the root of the root of your soul. (Rumi: In the arms of the Beloved)

So reincarnation is not just Hindu based. It is Islamic!
arlenebatada wrote: So we can see that there is a continuous development in the intellect of a soul and abandonment of desires, for without intellect a soul cannot understand Almighty.

Now MAYBE-and when I say maybe I’m speculating over here. A person who in his human form has misused his freewill and remained a slave of his desires, then he has not made any development in his intellect. In this case, a provision- maybe as rebirth in this world or by some other means in the world of hereafter is made.
Based on what you have said, you have not watched the videos. Please watch them and have an open mind.

Misuse of intellect can cause one to come back as said by Rumi
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

So reincarnation is not just Hindu based. It is Islamic!
Please stop it
Islam believes in Resurrection not reincarnation
arlenebatada
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Post by arlenebatada »

kmaherali wrote:Think about it. We had a glorious Fatimid empire in a Muslim land and now Ismailism has vanished from Egypt. On the other hand, Satpanth tradition established in India is vibrant today across many countries. It is this tradition that has made it possible to establish modern institutions such as the IIS.

So who is better? The Sunnis of Egypt or the Hindus who were converted to Ismailism.

Infact our Pirs established the Satpanth tradition in India because they felt it was a fertile ground to establish a rich tradition.
Days pass, seasons change, time changes, but there is just one thing that remains as is- The Face of Allah (swt), just like He says in the holy Qur'an:
"Everything will be destroyed except His Face"
(Surah al-Qasas [28:88])
To which Imam 'Ali (a.s.) said "Ana wajhulla" i.e. "I'm the Face of Allah"
(Khutba al-Bayah)
The point is that everything perishes except presence of the Imam (a.s.) on the earth and his central position in the faith.

I disagree that the Fatimid teachings are destroyed because they were incomplete/inappropriate and that it is because of Satpanth that we’ve the IIS. At that time we had institutions like al-Azhar, a place like Dar al-'Ilm. After that time we’d the world's best library in Almut. Today we've the IIS. Tomorrow it'll be replaced with something else. Times change, things change; just like it is rightly said "Everything that has a beginning, has an end".

Moreover, it would be incorrect to say that all the Isma'ilis today follow Satpanth. Isma'ilis originally from places like Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, minorities in Saudi Arabia and some other regions don't follow Satpanth. They follow the Imam through the Qur'an, hadiths and the teachings of our Fatimid & Almut period.

It would also be incorrect to consider Satpanth to be contrasting with the previous teachings. Basically our teachings have remained same throughout the ages. Only representation of the same has changed according to the recipients, place and culture. This is the reason why Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (a.s.), as even you've quoted previously that he has called Ginans to be the essence of the Qur'an.

kmaherali wrote: Mowlana Rumi has also said:

"For ages you have come and gone,
courting this delusion,
For ages you have run from the pain
and forfeited the ecstacy
So come return to the root of the root of your soul. (Rumi: In the arms of the Beloved)

So reincarnation is not just Hindu based. It is Islamic!
The quote from Mawlana Rumi doesn't necessarily speak about reincarnation. It can also be used to bolster the claim that soul is in constant development and has travelled from being in the form of dust to now that of a Man and when it now has attained this human form, it should directly aim for spiritual annihilation into the root, rather than entering the world of souls first and unnecessarily delaying the journey by passing through intermediate stations. I'm able to recall a farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (a.s.) which I'd heard in Baitul Khayal Majalis where he says "what people see after death, you can see the same while living in this world and becoming dead in bandgi". He did not say something like "what 'SOME' people see after death...". If rebirth were the normal case; as it mostly is being believed here, then he probably would have mentioned something like that. (Of course, he knows better about what should be said in his infinite wisdom)

kmaherali wrote: Based on what you have said, you have not watched the videos. Please watch them and have an open mind.

Misuse of intellect can cause one to come back as said by Rumi
I've watched some of the videos and tried to retain an 'open mind' :wink: . I have been aware of such cases but the reason why I was avoiding this point is because using such point brings the discussion entirely on a different plane. It cannot be mixed with the teachings of religion. Be it any religion. When this topic is discussed with a point whose foundation is on a research, the entire discussion should rest on the plane of research.

Anyways, since the research point has been insisted to be brought in, I would like to indicate that not all researchers agree to reincarnation. Whatever people talk about their past life experiences, it is considered to be belonging to the area of PLR (Past-life regression). Scientists say that memory is inscribed in the genes of an individual. This memory is then later passed on to the offspring of an individual through his genes. So when a person has such paranormal memories, scientists believe that the person has a direct/indirect blood relation over past several generations with the person whose memory that person is experiencing. They’ve also demonstrated the changes in genetic and neural structures that occur which result in this.

I remember a popular game I used to play "Assassin's Creed", which is based on this concept of ancestral memory where the character 'lives' his ancestor’s memory.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

arlenebatada wrote:I disagree that the Fatimid teachings are destroyed because they were incomplete/inappropriate and that it is because of Satpanth that we’ve the IIS. At that time we had institutions like al-Azhar, a place like Dar al-'Ilm. After that time we’d the world's best library in Almut. Today we've the IIS. Tomorrow it'll be replaced with something else. Times change, things change; just like it is rightly said "Everything that has a beginning, has an end"..
True, institutions come and go, however the traditions underpinning them survive. Most people in Egypt have little appreciation the Fatimid period though they established Cairo and Al- Azahar University. They are not aware of the intellectual and philosiphical traditions of the fatimids even at centres of learning such as Al- Azhar.
arlenebatada wrote: Moreover, it would be incorrect to say that all the Isma'ilis today follow Satpanth. Isma'ilis originally from places like Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, minorities in Saudi Arabia and some other regions don't follow Satpanth. They follow the Imam through the Qur'an, hadiths and the teachings of our Fatimid & Almut period..
I did not imply that all Ismailis practice Satpanth. I only meant that Satpanth is more widespread across the world. There is strength in diversity and we should learn from each other and not reject traditions of reincarnation out of hand.
arlenebatada wrote: The quote from Mawlana Rumi doesn't necessarily speak about reincarnation. It can also be used to bolster the claim that soul is in constant development and has travelled from being in the form of dust to now that of a Man and when it now has attained this human form, it should directly aim for spiritual annihilation into the root, rather than entering the world of souls first and unnecessarily delaying the journey by passing through intermediate stations. .
The poem states:
"For ages you have come and gone,
courting this delusion"

That means you had a choice between delusion and reality. Do you think minerals, plants insects birds and animals have that capacity of choice? It is only humans who could have such a choice.
arlenebatada wrote: I'm able to recall a farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (a.s.) which I'd heard in Baitul Khayal Majalis where he says "what people see after death, you can see the same while living in this world and becoming dead in bandgi". He did not say something like "what 'SOME' people see after death...". If rebirth were the normal case; as it mostly is being believed here, then he probably would have mentioned something like that. (Of course, he knows better about what should be said in his infinite wisdom).
The whole point in Bandagi is to rise beyond the physical cycles of rebirth, hence it would not make sense to say that you will have physical related experiences in Bandagi, though some people have experienced the vision of previous lives in banadagi as passing phases but not as ultimate objective.
arlenebatada wrote: I've watched some of the videos and tried to retain an 'open mind' :wink: . I have been aware of such cases but the reason why I was avoiding this point is because using such point brings the discussion entirely on a different plane. It cannot be mixed with the teachings of religion. Be it any religion. When this topic is discussed with a point whose foundation is on a research, the entire discussion should rest on the plane of research..
MSMS has said that Islam is a natural religion. The creation are ayats which must be studied. Hence there is no dichotomy between theology and science; they mutually reinforce each other.
arlenebatada wrote: Scientists say that memory is inscribed in the genes of an individual. This memory is then later passed on to the offspring of an individual through his genes.
If the experiences were the product of mis-formation of genes, then they would persist throughout the life and not be wiped out after childhood. Genes take a long time to mutate.

Paramahansa Yoganada a well known and respected Yogi in both the western and eastern worlds and whose autobiography has been much acclaimed and translated in multiple languages and sold millions of copies has expalined the concept in this masterpiece. I stronglt recommend you read the entire book which is available online at:

https://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/index.php

If you cannot read the whole book, there are two chapters which are very pertinent to this discussion:

The Resurrection of Sri Yukteswar
https://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap43.php

This chapter describes his Master's resurrection after his death. During the time of his resrrection he explained what happens to souls after death in different realms of astral worlds.

Kashi, Reborn and Rediscovered
https://www.crystalclarity.com/yogananda/chap28.php

This chapter explains how he was able through his Yogic powers able to trace the path of a dead child's soul as it entered another life.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

zznoor wrote:Please stop it
Islam believes in Resurrection not reincarnation
Which Mulla has fed you with this non-sense? How many times have you been told that there are ayats which can be interpreted as reincranation. Go to page 6 of this thread where all the ayats have been mentioned to you in response to your question.
arlenebatada
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Post by arlenebatada »

kmaherali wrote: MSMS has said that Islam is a natural religion. The creation are ayats which must be studied. Hence there is no dichotomy between theology and science; they mutually reinforce each other.
That’s right. Islam is a natural religion. There is no dichotomy between theology and science; they mutually reinforce each other. But there is a dichotomy, in fact a very strong dichotomy between theology and speculation. The material presented by you is not science at all. This leads us back to the difference between theory and an established fact. A theory has been presented by you, and I’ve presented an equally strong opposing theory. None of them has been established as a fact and so none of them has been yet been accepted in the field of science. That’s the reason why we cannot discuss those speculative theories with the theology of religion. If you would have brought up topics like astronomy, biology, physics, chemistry, I would readily have agreed to discuss theology alongside them. I will agree to discuss theology alongside reincarnation, insha Allah on the day when science accepts reincarnation as a part of it.

Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni (a.s.) said:
“Islam would not be what it is if it were not logical and this is something you must keep in mind. Because the very heart of Islam is logical. There is no hocus-pocus. There is no nonsense. It is clear and it is lucid and it is understandable.”
(Pakistan, 1960)


From the very beginning, I've been quoting references while from the other side I've observed mostly opinions being presented and very few references; and furthermore, those references are presented with an element of interpretation but with no clear evidence. Moreover, from my side I've tried to refute opinions presented from the other side or at least have tried to present a study which answers the questions of the contending study and tries to refute it; while the latter has not still been able to refute pieces of evidence presented from my side.

When the latter is presenting an interpretation about reincarnation, it is not in harmony with all the teachings of our faith, while what I've presented subsumes all the teachings of our faith- right from the beginning, till this date. Moreover, the academic study of Isma'ilism also doesn't agree that Isma'ili sect believes in reincarnation.

Below is an extract from Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (a.s.)'s article "Reincarnation on Companionship on High?":

"The Buddhists and Brahmans certainly believe in some kind of survival, but that is very often allied to the idea of transmigration of souls from animals to men and angels or still higher beings in the spiritual world of those faiths.

The Islamic conception is, however, different from the extreme materialistic idea of a live body, similar to the man as he was in life, getting up from his utter destructibility, to form a body with all the nervous and other forces that control our existence in this world......

The last words of the Prophet were 'Companionship on High.'

This is a third way of looking at survival after death
(apart from the Biblical raising of the body, and from the indefinite and varied doctrines of the several Hindu schools of thought and the two great Buddhist Northern and Southern sects). It is the hope of all true Muslims, like their Prophet, namely, 'Companionship on High.'"

(http://www.amaana.org/ismaili/reincarna ... ip-on-high)

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (a.s.) clearly disassociates himself from the idea of reincarnation. This is exactly congruent with the open teachings of our da'is and the allegorical teachings of our Pirs, both of which impart the same knowledge with different representations.

Anyways, a person has the right to believe what he wants. But the references bear more weight than opinions.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

arlenebatada wrote:That’s right. Islam is a natural religion. There is no dichotomy between theology and science; they mutually reinforce each other. But there is a dichotomy, in fact a very strong dichotomy between theology and speculation. The material presented by you is not science at all. .
Did you read the links I provided. There are logical facts involving real lives!
arlenebatada wrote: Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (a.s.) clearly disassociates himself from the idea of reincarnation. This is exactly congruent with the open teachings of our da'is and the allegorical teachings of our Pirs, both of which impart the same knowledge with different representations..
As you quoted Imam al-Baqir's hadith earlier, Imam speaks different things to different audiences and that is OK with him. To his murids in the Farmans below he has clearly indicated reincarnation:

"You have not realized during the period when you have human beings, what could you gain after death when you have remained donkeys and dogs and beasts after having gone through 184,000 births? What benefit would be accrued in again becoming dog after death". (18.10.1903, Wadhwan Kemp)

"Cherish such desires (thoughts) that after death your soul does not come back from there having reborn and does not take birth again in the world, nor even you enter Hell."(3.11.1903, Manjewadi)
arlenebatada wrote: Anyways, a person has the right to believe what he wants. But the references bear more weight than opinions.
I have provided you with scientific evidence and references to facts which obviously you have chosen to ignore.
arlenebatada
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Post by arlenebatada »

kmaherali wrote:
arlenebatada wrote: Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (a.s.) clearly disassociates himself from the idea of reincarnation. This is exactly congruent with the open teachings of our da'is and the allegorical teachings of our Pirs, both of which impart the same knowledge with different representations..
As you quoted Imam al-Baqir's hadith earlier, Imam speaks different things to different audiences and that is OK with him. To his murids in the Farmans below he has clearly indicated reincarnation:

"You have not realized during the period when you have human beings, what could you gain after death when you have remained donkeys and dogs and beasts after having gone through 184,000 births? What benefit would be accrued in again becoming dog after death". (18.10.1903, Wadhwan Kemp)

"Cherish such desires (thoughts) that after death your soul does not come back from there having reborn and does not take birth again in the world, nor even you enter Hell."(3.11.1903, Manjewadi)
arlenebatada wrote: Anyways, a person has the right to believe what he wants. But the references bear more weight than opinions.
I have provided you with scientific evidence and references to facts which obviously you have chosen to ignore.
Imam doesn't open up clearly even to his murids. So it would be an error to pick and choose teachings which we like and disregard the rest.

Reminds me of the story of an elephant and six blind men by Mawlana Rumi
(http://aumamen.com/story/six-blind-men- ... lephant-is)

Maybe the truth is entirely different than what we are trying to perceive through our limited intellect. Allah (swt) knows the best. May we be enlightened to perceive the truth as it is, through the Noor of our Imam (a.s). Insha Allah.

Ya 'Ali Madad
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

arlenebatada wrote:Imam doesn't open up clearly even to his murids. So it would be an error to pick and choose teachings which we like and disregard the rest.
It would be meaningless if we murids are still bewildered having the guidance of the Imam. I think the statements that you quoted were the address to the Muslim world and not specifically to his murids. The Farmans are made specifically to his murids, hence there can be a difference in the articulation.

It is the same with the Memoirs. When the Memoirs was first published the Imam issued a Talika stating that he had two audiences in front of him. The murids on one hand and the others on the other.

The murids should pay closer attention to the Farmans and not public statements.
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

kmaherali wrote:
zznoor wrote:Please stop it
Islam believes in Resurrection not reincarnation
Which Mulla has fed you with this non-sense?
ASAK
Biggest Mulla of Islam said in Authentic Hadith

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “In man there is a bone which will not be consumed by the earth, and from it he will be regenerated on the Day of Resurrection.” They asked, “What bone is that, O Messenger of Allah?” He said, “The tailbone.” (Narrated by Muslim, 5255).

The idea of reincarnation is rejection and denial of resurrection and hereafter and it has been refuted by texts of Islam.
How many times have you been told that there are ayats which can be interpreted as reincranation. Go to page 6 of this thread where all the ayats have been mentioned to you in response to your question.
Inerpreted? By whom? How many ayats and interpretations by scholars I have posted!
My being here is not to refute Ismaili religious beliefs but to support Islamic belief by Quran and Authentic Hadith

Mulla is usually used by Islam haters and does not suite scolar like you
[/b]
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

I do not want waste too much page space
Let me just post Tafsir of Ayah 2:28:

How can you disbelieve in Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you [back] to life, and then to Him you will be returned.

Allah saw testifies to the fact that He exists and that He is the Creator and the Sustainer Who has full authority over His servants, How can anyone deny Allah saw‘s existence or worship others with Him while; they were dead and He gave them life, He brought them from the state of non-existence to life.
This ayah begins by expressing surprise at those who insist on being ungrateful to Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala and on denying Him. On the face of it, the disbelievers had never denied Allah saw but only the Prophet salAllah u ‘alayhi wa sallam, all the same, the Qur’an equates such a denial with the denial of Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala Himself.

Then, the ayah reminds man that once he was “dead” (amwat), or that he had no life. He existed, if at all, in the shape of billions of lifeless particles aimlessly floating; Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala brought them together, made them into a man, and gave them life.
The ayah proceeds to warn him that Allah saw take away his life, and then give it back to him a second time. This second life refers to the Day of Judgment when Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala will collect the lifeless and scattered particles of each and every man again, and give him a new life. Thus, the first ‘death’ or ‘state of lifelessness’ was at the beginning before man received life from Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala; the second death comes when a man completes the life-span allotted to him; and the second life will be given on the Day of Judgment.

The ayah ends by telling man that he will ultimately go back to Allah saw This, of course, refers to the Resurrection when all men will rise from their graves and assembled for giving an account of their deeds, and be finally punished or rewarded according to what they had been doing in the world.
According to this ayah, the chief blessing of Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala for man is life, for without life he cannot profit from any other blessing. This is obvious enough. But the ayah counts death too as a blessing. It is so, because physical death is the door to the perpetual life of the other world after which there is no death.
Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala has described our whole life journey, and if we truly reflect on it, it scares us because we realize that no matter how much we travel, in the end we will return to Him and be held responsible for what we did.
It is said in Surah Al-‘Inshiqāq ayah 6,

“O forgetful human, surely you are returning to your Lord a truly returning, then you will meet Him”. (84:6)
Copied from verse by verse Quran study circle
arlenebatada
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Post by arlenebatada »

kmaherali wrote:
arlenebatada wrote:Imam doesn't open up clearly even to his murids. So it would be an error to pick and choose teachings which we like and disregard the rest.
It would be meaningless if we murids are still bewildered having the guidance of the Imam. I think the statements that you quoted were the address to the Muslim world and not specifically to his murids. The Farmans are made specifically to his murids, hence there can be a difference in the articulation.

It is the same with the Memoirs. When the Memoirs was first published the Imam issued a Talika stating that he had two audiences in front of him. The murids on one hand and the others on the other.

The murids should pay closer attention to the Farmans and not public statements.
Thank you for sharing the talika information. It was something new for me.

For the safety of our faith, Imam cannot disclose everything openly to us as well because it can confuse us and harm our faith which will eventually result in our deviation from Sirat al-Mustaqeem. If you're really willing to know, I'll provide an indication.

This is a quote from a book which every Isma'ili da'i during the reign of Imam al-Hakim bi 'Amr Allah (a.s.) had to read before making da'wa and had to follow:
"If the da'i replies to the questioner beneath his ability & his position, he will not be satisfied by it & it will be of no use.. he will not grasp it & it might do him harm.. They (the followers) will become doubtful of religion & sick at heart.."
(al-Risala al-mujaza al-kafiya fi adab al-du'at)

"Prophets and Imams knew what was going to happen, yet we are not allowed to reveal the mysteries of the Ghayb (unseen)."
-Imam Aga Shah 'Ali Shah (a.s.)
(transl. Rai Gulamali Kassam Shivji, Calgary November 1989)

I've made these quotations because they're publicly available. But I don't think I can talk and neither are we permitted to talk about it beyond this point. It would mean going against the Imam's will.
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Post by shivaathervedi »

In Judaism, Christianity, and Islam there is no room for REINCARNATION like Hinduism. Being as Muslims MOSTLY Ismailis do not believe in this concept. Let me quote few excerpts from a letter and an article written by MSMS FOR EVIDENCE.


1. On behalf of 'study circle' Mombasa, count Paro asked the following question requesting MSMS in 1954. The question was:
" Do we Ismailis believe that there is ' REBIRTH' on this earth to repay and receive repayment of 'KARMIC' debt or do we believe that this REBIRTH will be in a new creation than the human being".
I am writing count Paro's comments after receiving the reply from Imam.
Count Paro wrote," To this question Khudavend was most kind to reply. But Khudavend's reply has not lessened the CONFUSION in the minds of some missionaries who with deep set of HINDU MYTHOLOGY at the back of their minds, quote Khudavend's earlier Farman where Khudavend, perhaps ALLEGORICALLY HAS REFFERED THE MAN TO REBORN AS DONKEY OR ANIMAL ETC.
Here I am quoting an excerpt from the reply of MSMS to count Paro.

" Like the Prophet, Like all the Imams, and like all the Prophets before Muhammad, My general Farmans are often ALLEGORICAL". (MSMS)

2. Excerpts from article:
The Hindu and Buddhistic explanations of life after death, with always the influence of the soul taking forms either much lower, such as the lowest animals, or much higher, like some so-called Gods of both Brahmanism and Buddhism, seem to many brought up outside their immemorial tradition as more a hope and pious wish than anything founded on fact.

Prophet Muhammad carried by Angel Gabriel to Ridwan at the gate of Heaven. For Muslims there has been a similar personal influence, and in many ways it resembles the position that St. Thomas Aquinas took in the Catholic Church. First of all as regards the idea of divinity of God: a great deal of the Quran is taken up with God’s intimate presence in the world, with the importance of each human being’s relations with the Creator; but only in one chapter – the chapter on Light – is the nature of the divinity referred to in a very clear form. Although, of course, we do not believe that the person of the Creator is a form of light, either in waves or in the minutest association of myriads of points, yet the consequence of the light as seen in the universe, is the nearest we can imagine or hope to believe about the person of our Creator.

So the death-bed scene of our Holy Prophet, so well authenticated by evidence, took place in the presence of his two cousins, Ali and Ibn-Abbas, his wives, and above all, his future great successor, the Caliph Omar, then one of his leading companions. All this evidence is exactly the same. The last words of the Prophet were “Companionship on High.”

This is a third way of looking at survival after death (apart from the Biblical raising of the body, and from the indefinite and varied doctrines of the several Hindu schools of thought and the two great Buddhist Northern and Southern sects). It is the hope of all true Muslims, like their Prophet, namely, “Companionship on High.”
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

zznoor wrote:The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “In man there is a bone which will not be consumed by the earth, and from it he will be regenerated on the Day of Resurrection.” They asked, “What bone is that, O Messenger of Allah?” He said, “The tailbone.” (Narrated by Muslim, 5255).[/b]]
What happens to those who choose cremation? Where does the heaven and hell exist? How will the sinful be purified?
zznoor wrote: The idea of reincarnation is rejection and denial of resurrection and hereafter and it has been refuted by texts of Islam.]
Reincarnation does not reject resurrection. As a matter of fact in Ismailism, if one is practicing as per the teachings, every moment can be a moment of resurrection. For such a person there is no reincarnation.

Reincarnation is the worst case senario. It is not something to cherish or aspire towards.
zznoor wrote: Inerpreted? By whom? How many ayats and interpretations by scholars I have posted!
My being here is not to refute Ismaili religious beliefs but to support Islamic belief by Quran and Authentic Hadith

Mulla is usually used by Islam haters and does not suite scolar like you
[/b]
In Islam there is no monopoly for interpretation. In Ismailism, the Pirs provide the authoritative tafsir which is reflected in the Ginans. If there is no authoritative tafsir, one is free to use the intellect. We respect your interpretation although we disagree. You should also respect our interpretation and refrain from saying reincarnation is un-Islamic.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

zznoor wrote:The ayah proceeds to warn him that Allah saw take away his life, and then give it back to him a second time. This second life refers to the Day of Judgment when Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala will collect the lifeless and scattered particles of each and every man again, and give him a new life. Thus, the first ‘death’ or ‘state of lifelessness’ was at the beginning before man received life from Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala; the second death comes when a man completes the life-span allotted to him; and the second life will be given on the Day of Judgment.

The ayah ends by telling man that he will ultimately go back to Allah saw This, of course, refers to the Resurrection when all men will rise from their graves and assembled for giving an account of their deeds, and be finally punished or rewarded according to what they had been doing in the world.
So what happens after the Day of Judgement? What happens when the soul is found to be guilty? How will he be purified?

You are saying that everyone will be there in their physical bodies?
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

TANASUKH ZAA(N) SABAB SHUD KUFR WA BATIL
KE AA(N) AZ TUNG CHASHMI GASHT HAASIL

Incarnation is kufr and false because it is based on a narrow outlook.

Mahmud Shabistari; Gulshan e Raaz.
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

NAQSH E HUQQ RA HUM BI AMR E HUQQ SHIKAN
BAR ZUJAJ E DOST SUNG E DOST ZUN

Break the form of God, with God's order'
Throw the friend's stone on the lamp (zujaj) of the friend.

Rumi; Mathnavi.
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Post by Admin »

shivaathervedi wrote:TANASUKH ZAA(N) SABAB SHUD KUFR WA BATIL
KE AA(N) AZ TUNG CHASHMI GASHT HAASIL

Incarnation is kufr and false because it is based on a narrow outlook.

Mahmud Shabistari; Gulshan e Raaz.
The same can be said of you
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:TANASUKH ZAA(N) SABAB SHUD KUFR WA BATIL
KE AA(N) AZ TUNG CHASHMI GASHT HAASIL

Incarnation is kufr and false because it is based on a narrow outlook.

Mahmud Shabistari; Gulshan e Raaz.
The same can be said of you

I do not believe in reincarnation. Let me reproduce one of my post on this topic.

shivaathervedi

Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 696

PostPosted: 11 Nov 2016 09:25 am Post subject: Reply with quote
On behalf of 'study circle' Mombasa, count Paro asked the following question requesting MSMS in 1954. The question was:
" Do we Ismailis believe that there is ' REBIRTH' on this earth to repay and receive repayment of 'KARMIC' debt or do we believe that this REBIRTH will be in a new creation than the human being".
I am writing count Paro's comments after receiving the reply from Imam.
Count Paro wrote," To this question Khudavend was most kind to reply. But Khudavend's reply has not lessened the CONFUSION in the minds of some missionaries who with deep set of HNDU MYTHOLOGY at the back of their minds, quote Khudavend's earlier Farman where Khudavend, perhaps ALLEGORICALLY HAS REFFERED THE MAN TO REBORN AS DONKEY OR ANIMAL ETC.
Here I am quoting an excerpt from the reply of MSMS to count Paro.

" Like the Prophet, Like all the Imams, and like all the Prophets before Muhammad, My general Farmans are often ALLEGORICAL".
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

YA ALI MADAD.
Navroz Mubarak to All.
It is true ,break the form /composition of the name & word Allah into ALI + lah.it comes from inner order to the heart of the person.
Get rid of physical act for greater acts by inner order from ALI.
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Question
How does sinner escape punishment?

Let me just say follow following instructions from Quran



So there is "baatin" that is hidden meaning to everything in the book.

I like to find baatin meaning of following Ayas



“Most certainly those Believers have attained true success:

They who are during their prayer humbly submissive

And they who turn away from ill speech.

And they who are observant of zakah.

And they who guard their private parts. Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed – But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors –
And they who are to their trusts and their promises attentive.

And they who carefully maintain their prayers –

Those are the inheritors. Who will inherit al-Firdaus. They will abide therein eternally.” [Qur’an: Chapter 23: Verses 1-11]


They will not fail
I will deal with possible way to succeed after failure
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad.
Where is my posting in reply to above post gone?
What was adverse in it ?.
It is unfair.
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