"GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Discussion on doctrinal issues
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Re: "GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by Admin »

Actualy Gadir e Khum has never been used in our prayers as justification for the Imamat of Hazrat Ali. The daily prayer does not say that Gadir e Khum named the Imam. Hazrat Ali's father who was Imam before him has named his successor. All this is basic kindergarden material for Ismailis who know the Farmans but to shariati outsiders, this may look like a curiosity. Of course it does not devaluate the fact that Hazrat Ali is the first Imam of this Cycle, 77th Patra and Shah Karim is 49th Imam Naklanki Avatar. Hazrat Ali was Imam before Gadir e Khum, since the death of his father, the previous Imam.

It is sad that today so much has been done to degrade the status of Imam. I was reading on the.ismaili that Khudawind is mearly a title and that in our faith it has nothing to do with the concept of divinity. Have these people who write on the.ismaili read Pir Shihabuddin Shah's Risalat e Haqiqati Din?
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Another Thread

Post by mahebubchatur »

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Re: Video: Why is Ghadir Khumm Important?

Post by mahebubchatur »

swamidada wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:02 pm
kmaherali wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:09 am Image

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va8BJmpH8eE

According to Shia belief, by declaring Hazrat Ali as Mawla after him, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) transferred his own spiritual authority bestowed upon him by Allah to Hazrat Ali, making him — and all the Imams that follow — the Amirul Mu’minin, or Master of the Believers.
Your statement suggests that prior to Prophet Muhammad Ali Murtaza was not Mowla and Amirul Mu'mineen as Prophet bestowed these titles upon Ali Murtaza.
My reading is that there was a transfer of the spiritual authority, the same Noor, from the time of Hazrat Adam, and pre-existing. This same Noor -spiritual Authority & knowledge is now with Imam e Zaman which was transferred on 11 July 1957.

“ each of the six Prophets was accompanied by an Imām who served as his waṣī (legatee): Seth (with Adam), Shem (with Noah), Ishmael (with Abraham), Aaron (with Moses), James (with Jesus) and ‘Alī (with Muhammad). The lineage of Imāms continued from Cycle to Cycle, safeguarding and uphold the esoteric meaning of the prophetic message. The Muḥammadan Revelation was the last of the prophetic revelations and was succeeded by the Muḥammadan Imāmat in the person of Imām ‘Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib and the Imāms of his progeny (who are also descendants of the Prophet Muḥammad) to the present day.  The Qur’ān alludes to this inter-prophetic lineage of Imāms in the following verse:
“Verily God chose Adam and Noah and the progeny of Abraham and the progeny of ‘Imran above all the worlds.  Direct descendents, one after the other, and God is the Hearing, the Knowing.” 
– Holy Qur’ān 3:33-34

viewtopic.php?p=75415#p75415
mahebubchatur
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Re: "GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by mahebubchatur »

Admin wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:56 pm Actualy Gadir e Khum has never been used in our prayers as justification for the Imamat of Hazrat Ali. The daily prayer does not say that Gadir e Khum named the Imam. Hazrat Ali's father who was Imam before him has named his successor. All this is basic kindergarden material for Ismailis who know the Farmans but to shariati outsiders, this may look like a curiosity. Of course it does not devaluate the fact that Hazrat Ali is the first Imam of this Cycle, 77th Patra and Shah Karim is 49th Imam Naklanki Avatar. Hazrat Ali was Imam before Gadir e Khum, since the death of his father, the previous Imam.

It is sad that today so much has been done to degrade the status of Imam. I was reading on the.ismaili that Khudawind is mearly a title and that in our faith it has nothing to do with the concept of divinity. Have these people who write on the.ismaili read Pir Shihabuddin Shah's Risalat e Haqiqati Din?
This is changing slowly, for example by IIS via TheIsmaili -However they say “first” which shows the author/s of this is/ are at best confused and or uncertain.

“ Ghadir Khumm, is “when Prophet Muhammad — based on a DIVINE command from Allah — designated Hazrat Ali as his successor & first in the continuing line of hereditary Imams” https://the.ismaili/eid-e-ghadir
mahebubchatur
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Authority & Noor e Imam e Zaman

Post by mahebubchatur »

Divinely ordained authority & Noor of Imam of the time

Link http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=9224
swamidada
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Re: "GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by swamidada »

Admin wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:56 pm
It is sad that today so much has been done to degrade the status of Imam. I was reading on the.ismaili that Khudawind is mearly a title and that in our faith it has nothing to do with the concept of divinity. Have these people who write on the.ismaili read Pir Shihabuddin Shah's Risalat e Haqiqati Din?
Hazar Imam is well aware of the activities of ITREB, IIS, THE.ISMAILI (the Ismaili official blog). these institutions work under guidance of Hazar Imam.

Allow me to quote two statements one by Mahbub Chatur, he wrote, “ Ghadir Khumm, is “when Prophet Muhammad — based on a DIVINE command from Allah — designated Hazrat Ali as his successor & first in the continuing line of hereditary Imams”

Second statement by Kmaherali, quite few times in his postings he wrote," Concepts change according to changing times ".
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Re: "GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:16 pm Second statement by Kmaherali, quite few times in his postings he wrote," Concepts change according to changing times ".
The concepts don't change but the articulation of the concept can change according to context. Hence the concept of the eternity of Imamat does not change. What changes is the way it is articulated. Hence today in a zaheri context as articulated in our constitution the Imam inherited the role of the Prophet and hence the event of Ghadir is significant. According to the Ginanic context Imamat is the manifestation of God hence Ghadir is not mentioned in the Ginans and 50 years back we never celebrated Ghadir e khum as Eid.
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Re: "GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by kmaherali »

Also keep in mind that the constitution states that Islam is the final revelation not the first. Hence there were previous revelations as well through Prophets and Imams . In the Farman below, there is a connection between Allah and Imamat as an eternal institution.

I say this today, because twentyfive years have gone by, and some of You have referred to Me as the Imam of the atomic age. But I am the 49th
Imam and there will be Imams in the future, and the age will not be atomic,it may be the space age, and maybe it will be further than the space age
but all that means is that Allah's presence is everywhere, all the time. (Nairobi, Kenya.Tuesday, October 5, 1982. Parklands.)
swamidada
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Re: "GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:51 am
swamidada wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:16 pm Second statement by Kmaherali, quite few times in his postings he wrote," Concepts change according to changing times ".
According to the Ginanic context Imamat is the manifestation of God hence Ghadir is not mentioned in the Ginans and 50 years back we never celebrated Ghadir e khum as Eid.
Let me assure you that in early 50's Ismailis in Pakistan started celebrating Eid Milladun Nabi as well Eid e Ghadir.
It is strange that in Ginans there is mention of Eid e Millad but not Eid e Ghadir!! Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali existed since primordial times simultaneously.
swamidada
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Re: "GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:12 am Also keep in mind that the constitution states that Islam is the final revelation not the first. Hence there were previous revelations as well through Prophets and Imams . In the Farman below, there is a connection between Allah and Imamat as an eternal institution.


Islam is Natural and Universal Deen. It exists since the time when first Adam set foot on planet Earth. With different Prophets came different revelations according to changing times. The final revelation came through Prophet Muhammad. Muslims are bound to follow final revelation mentioned in Quran. Being as Muslims Ismailis follow final message of Allah and Hazar Imam is present to interpret message of Allah for worldly and spiritual matters.

KAALEY BHOJAN JAMIYA
TENA AAJEY SHA WAKHAN(N) RE
swamidada
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Re: "GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 10:12 am In the Farman below, there is a connection between Allah and Imamat as an eternal institution.
I say this today, because twentyfive years have gone by, and some of You have referred to Me as the Imam of the atomic age. But I am the 49th
Imam and there will be Imams in the future, and the age will not be atomic,it may be the space age, and maybe it will be further than the space age
but all that means is that Allah's presence is everywhere, all the time. (Nairobi, Kenya.Tuesday, October 5, 1982. Parklands.)
No doubt there will be Imams in future but In the above mentioned Farman Hazar Imam said," ALLAH'S PRESENCE IS EVERY WHERE, ALL THE TIME ". He has not mentioned about any connection with Allah. Hazar Imam has made comparison of different ages in which Imam can be referred as 'Imam of the atomic age, or laser age, or space age or billion miles away some where in deep deep space with some different name".
swamidada
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Re: "GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:51 am
swamidada wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 10:16 pm Second statement by Kmaherali, quite few times in his postings he wrote," Concepts change according to changing times ".
The concepts don't change but the articulation of the concept can change according to context. Hence the concept of the eternity of Imamat does not change. What changes is the way it is articulated.
Let us take example of concept about God. Historically in the beginning humans worshiped many Gods at a time. That changed to Trinity in ancient religions, that changed to Duality, and finally to monotheism with other isms. So concept about God kept changing. In Ismailism first it was a simple concept then in Fatimid era changed to Universal Intellect, Universal Soul and Matter influenced by neo platonic philosophy. Again in Ginanic era the concept of God changed to manifestation theory. What I understand is that in different times concepts kept changing.

Articulation is an act of expressing. Now if every Ismaili starts articulating Quran and Farman, there will be chaos, disorder, fighting, I am right you are not. That's why in Ismailism it is only Imam of the time who will interpret faith, and make Farmans according to changing times.
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Re: "GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by mahebubchatur »

“ ILM An Arabic term meaning "knowledge."
Muslims view the search for knowledge as a way to more deeply understand and serve God's creation.

In Shia Islam, it also refers to the belief that each Imam-of-the-Time is granted divinely-inspired knowledge, through which he (IMAMS) interprets the faith for changing contexts and guides his followers according to the time and place that they live in.

Farmans are Imams divinely inspired, knowledge ILM TALIM TAWIL of and from the Quran which are to be shared and implemented, & not to be blocked.

More at https://twitter.com/chaturmahebub/statu ... hqfO552USg
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Ghadir al-Khumm told by The Aga Khan III - by Nargis Mawjee

Post by Admin »

New article by Nargis Mawjee:

Ghadir al-Khumm told by The Aga Khan III - The famous Pond of Ghadir al-Khumm, located in a valley between Mecca and Medina, is the place Allah had chosen to convey His last message to humanity. It is therefore the place where the Prophet Muhammad had completed his mission in March 632 as stipulated in the Qur'an suras 5:67 and 3:30. The reader will find in this volume the detailed farman that our Prophet had made at Ghadir al-Khumm as narrated by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah His Highness the Aga Khan III as well as the explanations found in other farmans.

DOWNLOAD FILE FROM THESE LINKS:

ENGLISH TEXT: http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/38424

TEXTE FRANCAIS: http://heritage.ismaili.net/node/38428


Image
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"O Ali" - Devotional Song

Post by kmaherali »

"O Ali" - Devotional Song - Mohamed (Mac) Virjee
Image

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGHnDN-7ewM
swamidada
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Re: "GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by swamidada »

JUBB ROZEY MUKAMMIL HOTTEY HAIN
TUBB EID E FITR AATI HAI

JUBB HAJJ MUKAMMIL HOTTA HAI
TUBB EID E DHUHA AATI HAI

JUBB DEEN MUKAMMIL HOTTA HAI
TUBB EID E GHADEER AATI HAI

SARWAR E HER KE MURTAZA BASHID
PIR WA DEEN MURTAZA BASHID
BISHAK UU SHAKHS AULIYA BASHID
WIRD UU NAAM E MURTAZA BASHID
HYDERI UM QALAMDAR UM MASTUM
BANDA E MURTAZA ALI HASTUM
(SHAHBAZ QALANDAR)

Every one's chief is Murtaza
Pir and Din is Murtaza
Indeed that person is saint
Who recites name of Murtaza Ali
I am Hyderi, I am Qalander, I am Mast ( intoxicated )
I am banda (slave) of Murtaza Ali
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Re: "GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by Admin »

There is an article by Mumtaz Ali Tajddin on the subject: https://library.ismaili.net/content/eid-al-ghadir
mahebubchatur
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PROPHET - FARMAN - GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by mahebubchatur »

The Prophet's Ghadir Khumm speech concluded with him saying "Do I not have more authority (awla) over you than your own souls?" In this statement, the Prophet was paraphrasing Holy Qur’an 33:6 - “The Prophet has more authority (awla) with the Believers than their own souls” (al-nabiyyu awla bi-l-muʾminin min anfusikum). Then, the Prophet said “He whose Mawla I am, this ᶜAli is his Mawla” (man kuntu mawlahu fa-hadha ᶜAliyyun mawlahu).

The word ‘mawla’ in the Ghadir Sermon cannot mean ‘friend’ or ‘client’ as some Sunnis claim because the Prophet himself set up the context of his meaning of the word mawla by two clear indicators:

https://ismailignosis.substack.com/p/th ... the-ghadir
swamidada
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Re: "GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

Post by swamidada »

There are mny meanings of word MOWLA in Arabic used in different ways in Arabic/Muslim literature. It means; Lord, Administrator, Leader, Owner, Friend, Master, Patron, Helper, Guardian, Protector, Trustee, Benefactor, Follower, Slave, Client, Naseer, Heir.

Allah calls Himself 'AL MOWLA' means the master, the protector on many occasions in Quran.
Quran says; ni’mal Mowla wa ni’mal Naseer, refers to the fact that Allah is the excellent Protector and excellent Helper. The same wordings are used in another Ayah: He is your protector; and excellent is the protector, and excellent is the helper [Quran, 22:78]
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