Pre-Adam

Whatever happened before Adam
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swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: You admitted, "Yes the later Adams were indeed born through the womb of mothers".
This is against the Sunnah or principle or tradition of Allah. Quran says;
FALAN TAJIDA LI SUNATILLAHI TABDEELA 35/43
There can not be change in My Sunnah

There is a twist in story. Very first Adam a statute and rest from womb of mothers!!
So how did creating a statue for all Adams become a Sunnah of Allah?
Were all those thousands of Adams in Human form as you and I. Earlier you wrote every Adam had its cyclic period when those cycles completed God introduced new Adam and restart the cycles. BUT my question is all those Adams were in human forms or they were different in their appearances?
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote:Were all those thousands of Adams in Human form as you and I. Earlier you wrote every Adam had its cyclic period when those cycles completed God introduced new Adam and restart the cycles. BUT my question is all those Adams were in human forms or they were different in their appearances?
Yes all Adams were in human forms, man did not evolve from lower life forms.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:Were all those thousands of Adams in Human form as you and I. Earlier you wrote every Adam had its cyclic period when those cycles completed God introduced new Adam and restart the cycles. BUT my question is all those Adams were in human forms or they were different in their appearances?
Yes all Adams were in human forms, man did not evolve from lower life forms.
What about in era of MUCHH, KUCHH, KORUMBH, VARAHA, were those Adams in that era in human forms?
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: What about in era of MUCHH, KUCHH, KORUMBH, VARAHA, were those Adams in that era in human forms?
They were not Adams. They were manifestations of God - avtaars. God can manifest himself in any form.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: What about in era of MUCHH, KUCHH, KORUMBH, VARAHA, were those Adams in that era in human forms?
They were not Adams. They were manifestations of God - avtaars. God can manifest himself in any form.
Is it not a double standard that for one portion of creation He manifested and for for others He created Adams. Were these Muchh, Kuchh. Varaha periods before creation of Adam? When He manifested in those periods, can have manifested later in other periods. He wasted 40 days/nights in kneading clay of Adam!!
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: Is it not a double standard that for one portion of creation He manifested and for for others He created Adams. Were these Muchh, Kuchh. Varaha periods before creation of Adam? When He manifested in those periods, can have manifested later in other periods. He wasted 40 days/nights in kneading clay of Adam!!
At present he is manifest as a human being - Dasmo Naklanki Avtaar - Ali Avtaar!
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: Is it not a double standard that for one portion of creation He manifested and for for others He created Adams. Were these Muchh, Kuchh. Varaha periods before creation of Adam? When He manifested in those periods, can have manifested later in other periods. He wasted 40 days/nights in kneading clay of Adam!!
At present he is manifest as a human being - Dasmo Naklanki Avtaar - Ali Avtaar!
My question was about time of Muchh, Kuchh and Varaha periods. By the way what is meaning of VARAHA?
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: My question was about time of Muchh, Kuchh and Varaha periods. By the way what is meaning of VARAHA?
You split up two periods. One before Adams and one after. You said that he did not manifest after Adams and I said that he is manifest as the Imam. Please read your own statement
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: My question was about time of Muchh, Kuchh and Varaha periods. By the way what is meaning of VARAHA?
You split up two periods. One before Adams and one after. You said that he did not manifest after Adams and I said that he is manifest as the Imam. Please read your own statement
Let me requote my previous post. You are confusing readers though you know well about what I wrote;
"Is it not a double standard that for one portion of creation He manifested and for for others He created Adams. Were these Muchh, Kuchh. Varaha periods before creation of Adam? When He manifested in those periods, can have manifested later in other periods. He wasted 40 days/nights in kneading clay of Adam"!!
You came up with theory of manifestation in Yugs that's why I called it double standard. My other question was, were those Hindu Mythology periods, Yugs, or cycles created before creation of first Adam or after him?
You did not give meaning of VARAHA.
Admin
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Post by Admin »

The Manifestation in Jugs has been brought in our Asal Du'a under the guidance and approval of several Imams and is part of the thousands of years of history upon which our Faith is based.

The theory of Avatars and Jug has been confirmed in the Courts with sworn statements handwritten by our Imam. Our Imam have explained in Court documents that why we believe that God took Avatar as Mach Avatar. Have some respect for our faith! You may want to educate yourself a little more about our Faith before posting uninformed comments here.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: Let me requote my previous post. You are confusing readers though you know well about what I wrote;
"Is it not a double standard that for one portion of creation He manifested and for for others He created Adams.
Isn't that splitting history into two periods? One before the Adams and one after the Adams?
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: Let me requote my previous post. You are confusing readers though you know well about what I wrote;
"Is it not a double standard that for one portion of creation He manifested and for for others He created Adams.
Isn't that splitting history into two periods? One before the Adams and one after the Adams?
It is not the question of splitting history but about God's system. I asked were the Yugas cycles started before creation of first Adam or afterwards?

Why are you shying to give meaning of VARAHA!!
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

Admin wrote:The Manifestation in Jugs has been brought in our Asal Du'a under the guidance and approval of several Imams and is part of the thousands of years of history upon which our Faith is based.
I am a student and a learner. In Central Asia Asal Dua was not introduced. There Ismailis don't know about Ginans of Pir Sadruddin and Pir Hassan Kabiruddin. They don't know about Yugs, Dus Avtars, reincarnation.
For my understanding can you give meaning of VARAHA AVTAR?
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: It is not the question of splitting history but about God's system. I asked were the Yugas cycles started before creation of first Adam or afterwards?

Why are you shying to give meaning of VARAHA!!
The Yugas have always been since creation and they undergo cycles. We are at the moment in Duapur Yuga.

I am not shying away from the meaning of VARAHA. I just feel that it has no relevance to this discussion. OK it is a kind of a boar, so what? What has it to do with our discussion.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: I am a student and a learner. In Central Asia Asal Dua was not introduced. There Ismailis don't know about Ginans of Pir Sadruddin and Pir Hassan Kabiruddin. They don't know about Yugs, Dus Avtars, reincarnation.
For my understanding can you give meaning of VARAHA AVTAR?
Ginans are meant for all Ismailis from wherever they may come from:

"Many times I have recommended to my spiritual children that they should remember the Ginans, that they should understand the meaning of these Ginans and that they should carry these meanings in their hearts. It is most important that my spiritual children from wherever they may come should, through the ages and from generation to generation, hold to this tradition which is so special, so unique and so important to my jamat." Karachi, 16.12.1964
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: It is not the question of splitting history but about God's system. I asked were the Yugas cycles started before creation of first Adam or afterwards?

Why are you shying to give meaning of VARAHA!!
The Yugas have always been since creation and they undergo cycles. We are at the moment in Duapur Yuga.
Still you are not coming to the point. My question is were the Yugas cycles started before creation of first Adam or afterwards? Question is about BEFORE or AFTER? Your answer is as usual 'Yugas have been since creation'. When Yugas system was in place then why God created other system by creating Adam?
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: It is not the question of splitting history but about God's system. I asked were the Yugas cycles started before creation of first Adam or afterwards?

Why are you shying to give meaning of VARAHA!!


I am not shying away from the meaning of VARAHA. I just feel that it has no relevance to this discussion. OK it is a kind of a boar, so what? What has it to do with our discussion.
Finally you made up your mind to give meaning of VARAHA, but carelessly you wrote 'SO WHAT', MEANS IT DOSEN'T MATTER TO YOU.
VARAHA means MALE SWINE, PIG, BOAR. It is one of Avtar of Vishnu in DUS AVTAR series. You and others believe in Dus Avtar.

HERE IS A DANGEROUS SITUATION.

In Dus Avtar series you and your like minded believe that these Avtars are of Ali/Imam. I shall better die if I consider (Nauzbillah) Ali as swine or pig. Is it not derogatory and unethical?
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: I am a student and a learner. In Central Asia Asal Dua was not introduced. There Ismailis don't know about Ginans of Pir Sadruddin and Pir Hassan Kabiruddin. They don't know about Yugs, Dus Avtars, reincarnation.
For my understanding can you give meaning of VARAHA AVTAR?
Ginans are meant for all Ismailis from wherever they may come from:

"Many times I have recommended to my spiritual children that they should remember the Ginans, that they should understand the meaning of these Ginans and that they should carry these meanings in their hearts. It is most important that my spiritual children from wherever they may come should, through the ages and from generation to generation, hold to this tradition which is so special, so unique and so important to my jamat." Karachi, 16.12.1964
The above Farman was meant for Khoja Ismailis of subcontinent. Central Asian Ismailis don't know Gujrati or Sindhi and Imam is aware of this.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote:In Dus Avtar series you and your like minded believe that these Avtars are of Ali/Imam. I shall better die if I consider (Nauzbillah) Ali as swine or pig. Is it not derogatory and unethical?
Avtaars are beyond the human conception of good and evil. They are always pure regardless of how they are perceived by others.

Whatever form they assume or whatever action they perform is always for the betterment of creation.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: The above Farman was meant for Khoja Ismailis of subcontinent. Central Asian Ismailis don't know Gujrati or Sindhi and Imam is aware of this.
All Ismailis are encouraged to learn English language and to learn about the different traditions within our diversity.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: When Yugas system was in place then why God created other system by creating Adam?
It is a system within a system. What is wrong with that?Four example we have yearly cycles and monthly cycles within yearly cycles. What is wrong with that?
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: When Yugas system was in place then why God created other system by creating Adam?
It is a system within a system. What is wrong with that?Four example we have yearly cycles and monthly cycles within yearly cycles. What is wrong with that?
It means according to you Yugs existed before creation of Adam?
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: The above Farman was meant for Khoja Ismailis of subcontinent. Central Asian Ismailis don't know Gujrati or Sindhi and Imam is aware of this.
All Ismailis are encouraged to learn English language and to learn about the different traditions within our diversity.
Were there any English schools at time of Pir Sadardin? GENERAL Farman about learning English is around 30 years old. 90% of Tajik, Uzbeks, Kazaks, Chinese, don't know English.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:In Dus Avtar series you and your like minded believe that these Avtars are of Ali/Imam. I shall better die if I consider (Nauzbillah) Ali as swine or pig. Is it not derogatory and unethical?
Avtaars are beyond the human conception of good and evil. They are always pure regardless of how they are perceived by others.
It is not the question that Avtaars are beyond the human conception of good and evil. I think you are not realizing the gravity of calling Ali/Imam as swine or Pig. How you or any Ismaili will feel if any non Ismaili call Imam with these derogatory terms!! You are degrading Imam's position and status. You are giving ammo in hands of our enemies to slap these words on our face. In Pakistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan or India, if any person calls other person pig should be beaten up red and blue. You people's stubbornness is hurting Ismailism. GOD HAS GIVEN INTEELLECT TO USE IN PROPER WAY.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: Were there any English schools at time of Pir Sadardin? GENERAL Farman about learning English is around 30 years old. 90% of Tajik, Uzbeks, Kazaks, Chinese, don't know English.
We are not talking about the past. We are talking about the present where we have technology and translations available. May be it may be too late for the older people to learn a new language but not difficult for the youth. Education is a life long process.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: It means according to you Yugs existed before creation of Adam?
Yes
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: It is not the question that Avtaars are beyond the human conception of good and evil. I think you are not realizing the gravity of calling Ali/Imam as swine or Pig.
First of all we cannot be absolutely sure that VARAHA means a pig. It has been translated as boar.

VARAHA has been mentioned by Pir Shamsh, Pir Sadardeen, Pir Hasaan Kabirdeen, Sayyed Imam Shah. MSMS confirmed this even in the court of law.

Who are you to question their wisdom?
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: Were there any English schools at time of Pir Sadardin? GENERAL Farman about learning English is around 30 years old. 90% of Tajik, Uzbeks, Kazaks, Chinese, don't know English.
We are not talking about the past. We are talking about the present where we have technology and translations available. May be it may be too late for the older people to learn a new language but not difficult for the youth. Education is a life long process.
Do you mean we should dump the old generations. They knew not about Dus Avtars even today so we neglect them. Is there any Farman of Imam that Central Asian Ismailis MUST learn about Dus Avtars. Uzbeks, Tajiks, mostly Afghans are poor masses, they can't afford to have computers in their houses. Mostly they are without electricity. It is hard for them to make both ends meet.
Dus Avtar is not part a of Ismaili Tenets.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: It means according to you Yugs existed before creation of Adam?
Yes
When Yugs already existed before Adam, then why God came up with NEW idea of Adam? Hence two systems were in place simultaneously.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: It is not the question that Avtaars are beyond the human conception of good and evil. I think you are not realizing the gravity of calling Ali/Imam as swine or Pig.
First of all we cannot be absolutely sure that VARAHA means a pig. It has been translated as boar.

VARAHA has been mentioned by Pir Shamsh, Pir Sadardeen, Pir Hasaan Kabirdeen, Sayyed Imam Shah. MSMS confirmed this even in the court of law.

Who are you to question their wisdom?
In Hindi, Gujrati, English and in other dictionaries Varaha means boar, male swine and pig. Long ago there was a discussion on VARAHA in Ismaila Association. The debaters were spilt. Senior missionaries said what ever (like you) it should stay same, where as younger argued it is not appropriate to call Ali as Varaha, it is disrespect and will be problematic with generations to come. It is true reports go to Hazar Imam. In 1986 with incept of new constitution, in PREAMBLE Hazar Imam did not include concept of Dus Avtars and reincarnation means these are not part of Ismaili Tenets. EVEN THESE CONCEPTS ARE NOT INCLUDED IN RC SYLABUSSES.

ISMAILIS ALWAYS FOLLOW GUIDANCE OF PRESENT IMAM.

I am not challenging wisdom of Holy men.
In my opinion, it was the strategy of Pirs to include Dus Avtars and reincarnation as converting tools to lure Hindu masses. Pirs used Hindu terminologies in Ginans to brain wash them and they were successful in their mission.
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