can humans BE God?

Discussion on doctrinal issues
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kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: How symbolically you will explain 1+ 50+500+500?
If you have an inclination towards understanding spiritual matters in symbolic terms, you will get the answers.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: If Azazil disobeyed God so Adam did also. Adam also disobeyed command of God residing in Paradise. Now where you draw the line?
There are degrees of disobedience. Not all acts of disobedience are equal.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: How symbolically you will explain 1+ 50+500+500?
If you have an inclination towards understanding spiritual matters in symbolic terms, you will get the answers.
You have translated Ginans, should know the symbolism in Ginanic literature that's why I asked you to analyze the following part symbolically, thanks.

HURAUN PACHAAS (50) TEY GHAR MA RAKHSUN
TEENU EEK TEY THAISEY BHARTAAR
PAACH SAU (500) PUTAR TEY JEEV NA THAISEY
TEY TOU FARMANIRAMSEY TE GHAR MINJAAR. PART # 523 Momin Chetamani
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: If Azazil disobeyed God so Adam did also. Adam also disobeyed command of God residing in Paradise. Now where you draw the line?
There are degrees of disobedience. Not all acts of disobedience are equal.
So you mean Adam did misdemeanor got 3 months public service as punishment, where Azazil was charged with felony and got life in prison.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: You have translated Ginans, should know the symbolism in Ginanic literature that's why I asked you to analyze the following part symbolically, thanks.

HURAUN PACHAAS (50) TEY GHAR MA RAKHSUN
TEENU EEK TEY THAISEY BHARTAAR
PAACH SAU (500) PUTAR TEY JEEV NA THAISEY
TEY TOU FARMANIRAMSEY TE GHAR MINJAAR. PART # 523 Momin Chetamani
One cannot use analytical tools about matters beyond human language. Only people who have experienced the heavens will understand what was meant by the symbolic expression.

For the rest one must accept the authoritative word od Sayyed Imam Shah until they are blessed with the heavens.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: You have translated Ginans, should know the symbolism in Ginanic literature that's why I asked you to analyze the following part symbolically, thanks.

HURAUN PACHAAS (50) TEY GHAR MA RAKHSUN
TEENU EEK TEY THAISEY BHARTAAR
PAACH SAU (500) PUTAR TEY JEEV NA THAISEY
TEY TOU FARMANIRAMSEY TE GHAR MINJAAR. PART # 523 Momin Chetamani
One cannot use analytical tools about matters beyond human language. Only people who have experienced the heavens will understand what was meant by the symbolic expression.

For the rest one must accept the authoritative word od Sayyed Imam Shah until they are blessed with the heavens.
When a person with aashervaad of Syed Saheb reached heaven should have been busy with 50 and 500. Why should he come back to tell the reality. Let me quote a Farman of MSMS;
Mansoor tena wastey behasht (heaven) moujud hatti, pun(n) te kahto ke khaali behasht maan(n) jai ne shu(n) karu(n). jiyaa(n) sudhi magaj ne chakhees nahi tiyaa(n) sudhi paachho nahi varu(n), aagar vadeesh.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: When a person with aashervaad of Syed Saheb reached heaven should havebeen busy with 50 and 500. Why should he come back to tell the reality.
There is no need to tell others about it. For those who have experienced it themselves would know it. For others they will not understand, hence such experiences should not be articulated at all.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: When a person with aashervaad of Syed Saheb reached heaven should havebeen busy with 50 and 500. Why should he come back to tell the reality.
There is no need to tell others about it. For those who have experienced it themselves would know it. For others they will not understand, hence such experiences should not be articulated at all.
Look like you did not paid attention to the Farman I quoted.
There is one who is satisfied with 50+500 in paradise, where other is yearning for higher status, heaven is not the goal but to merge with who is above all else.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: Look like you did not paid attention to the Farman I quoted.
There is one who is satisfied with 50+500 in paradise, where other is yearning for higher status, heaven is not the goal but to merge with who is above all else.
I fully understood your intention of mentioning the Farman. The pleasures alluding to the 50+500 are not the goal of ibadat, but they can be attained as well on the journey towards the goal as indicators of progress. Hence even these must not be articulated to those who have not had the experience.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: Look like you did not paid attention to the Farman I quoted.
There is one who is satisfied with 50+500 in paradise, where other is yearning for higher status, heaven is not the goal but to merge with who is above all else.
I fully understood your intention of mentioning the Farman. The pleasures alluding to the 50+500 are not the goal of ibadat, but they can be attained as well on the journey towards the goal as indicators of progress. Hence even these must not be articulated to those who have not had the experience.
If pleasures alluding to 50+500 are not the goal of ibadat then why Pir Saheb gave such lolipop to his followers. It is as a mother said to her child, Pappu if you finish your school home work I shall give you ice cream. Pir Saheb should have shown them the path to become near to Him Who is above all else. Pir Saheb spoiled their habits by giving them 50+500, now why they shall prepare for main goal to merge with God.

MAZA JO HAI SHABAAB MEI(N), SHARAAB MEI(N) KAHAA(N)

Same pleasures were present for Mansoor Hallaj, but he neglected and moved forward to achieve his aim.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: If pleasures alluding to 50+500 are not the goal of ibadat then why Pir Saheb gave such lolipop to his followers. It is as a mother said to her child, Pappu if you finish your school home work I shall give you ice cream. Pir Saheb should have shown them the path to become near to Him Who is above all else. Pir Saheb spoiled their habits by giving them 50+500, now why they shall prepare for main goal to merge with God.

MAZA JO HAI SHABAAB MEI(N), SHARAAB MEI(N) KAHAA(N)

Same pleasures were present for Mansoor Hallaj, but he neglected and moved forward to achieve his aim.
All of his murids are not of the same ability and background. Hence different approaches are sometimes required.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: If pleasures alluding to 50+500 are not the goal of ibadat then why Pir Saheb gave such lolipop to his followers. It is as a mother said to her child, Pappu if you finish your school home work I shall give you ice cream. Pir Saheb should have shown them the path to become near to Him Who is above all else. Pir Saheb spoiled their habits by giving them 50+500, now why they shall prepare for main goal to merge with God.

MAZA JO HAI SHABAAB MEI(N), SHARAAB MEI(N) KAHAA(N)

Same pleasures were present for Mansoor Hallaj, but he neglected and moved forward to achieve his aim.
All of his murids are not of the same ability and background. Hence different approaches are sometimes required.
In religious ethics and spirituality God's principles never change.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: In religious ethics and spirituality God's principles never change.
How have God's principles changed here?
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: In religious ethics and spirituality God's principles never change.
How have God's principles changed here?
There is no mention of 50+500 in Quran. Religiously, aim of life is to merge with God. This is the main principle and generally this principle applies on all human beings, no barriers of color, community, race, creed, nationality. Those who come knocking His door shall be opened for them.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

swamidada wrote: There is no mention of 50+500 in Quran. .
So everything we practice and believe in should be based upon whether they are included in the Qur'an or not? What about our rites and ceremonies, mandlis. Are they all found in the Quran?
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Post by swamidada »

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: There is no mention of 50+500 in Quran. .
So everything we practice and believe in should be based upon whether they are included in the Qur'an or not? What about our rites and ceremonies, mandlis. Are they all found in the Quran?
Let me first quote first article of Preamble and then I shall address your question.
According to Hazar Imam's guidance;" The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm Shahadah,' La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah,' the Tawhid there in and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet PBUH through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters".
Hazar Imam clearly mentioned that Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal.
Quran explain Tenets of Islam which are rigid like Tawhid, Prophethood, Imamat, Qayamah, 'Adl, ethical values and so on, but some traditions and ceremonies which were induced centuries later are not rigid, they have kept changing according to times. For example mandilis of Khoja traditions were mainly started in the tenure of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (which I heard will be phased out or merged. I do not want to go in discussion at this point). Eid Milladun Nabi started centuries after demise of the Prophet, same way You e Hussain started 4/5 centuries later after event of Karbala. Later on many customs and ceremonies were added in Eid Millad and Youm e Hussain.
Now neither 5/12 saal, life dedication, and other majalis are mentioned in Quran nor celebrations of Salgrah or Imamat day is mentioned in Quran but we do. These occasions were added in later centuries. I know there were couple of majlis which were started by jamaits on their own but were stopped by Association/ITREB.
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Post by Admin »

So if all our Ismaili customs and rituals are from last century and recent, what about the Imam saying that they are based on thousands of years of history (and not one or fourteen century).

Do you still believe in the Ismaili Imam or was that just a passing whim which you have left behind to join other Muslim brothers (you are welcome to do so)

- At least we know now why you regularly ridicule Ismaili customs and traditions sometime calling them Khoja tradition, sometime just refuting them based on Sunni beliefs... nothing left to guess now.

And we heard last week the Taliban declaring the same truth you have proclaimed here that there are principles in Quran so rigid that no one is authorised to question and interpret.... When our Imam said rigidity has killed Muslim empires..

And then again comparing Ithnashri customs with Ismaili customs led by a living Imam is just plain insult to the fact that Ismailis are guided by the Light of Imamat contrary to all your references branches who got separated from the Sirat al Mustaqueen, the trunk of the tree of Islam.
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Post by swamidada »

Admin wrote:
And we heard last week the Taliban declaring the same truth you have proclaimed here that there are principles in Quran so rigid that no one is authorised to question and interpret.... When our Imam said rigidity has killed Muslim empires..
It is strange, when I debate with kmaherali you jump in, and when I ask you a question kmaherali jumps in, two sides of same coin. I wrote about the basic TENETS of Islam according to Quran like Tawhid, Risalat, Imamat, Qayamat, which are rigid can not be changed. For example concept of Imamat is rigid, do you want to change it, if not means it is rigid.

Let me quote again words of Imam, "According to Hazar Imam's guidance;" The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm Shahadah,' La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah,' the Tawhid there in and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet PBUH through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters".
Do you consider the above paragraph quoted is from Hazar Imam or Taliban??

You wrote,"...when our Imam said rigidity has killed Muslim empires", Look, Imam has talked about the Muslim empires and not about Tenets of Islam.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

Admin wrote:So if all our Ismaili customs and rituals are from last century and recent, what about the Imam saying that they are based on thousands of years of history (and not one or fourteen century).

And then again comparing Ithnashri customs with Ismaili customs led by a living Imam is just plain insult to the fact that Ismailis are guided by the Light of Imamat contrary to all your references branches who got separated from the Sirat al Mustaqueen, the trunk of the tree of Islam.
To prove my point to kmaherali, I gave particular examples from Sunnism, Shiism, and Ismailism, like Eid Millad, event of Karbala, and about mandlis (as asked by kmaherali). Historically these started many centuries after demise of Prophet. Let me ask you, Ismailis in remembrance of Imam Hussain (event of Karbala) were chest beating and there were Hussaini Majalis, Taziya, and Sabeels in the early years of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in India (later on Imam stopped these customs and rituals).
Were 5/12 saal, life dedication, fidai, Noorani, 1/4th mandilis exited thousands of years back??
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Post by Admin »

swamidada wrote:
Were 5/12 saal, life dedication, fidai, Noorani, 1/4th mandilis exited thousands of years back??
Yes of course they existed. BK existed at the time of Tara Rani, all service Mijlas, as per Farmans made in these Majalis existed since a long time, when SMS even confirmed that Meraj was a BK experience as Prophet revisited his origin and Noorani was conducted historicaly by Imam Baqir who was sitting himself as Mukhi.

The fact that you are even mentioning these means blatant nafarmani and disregards for Farmans and this shows the reason of your presence on this Forum.

It would be nice first that you study a little bit about our Ismaili faith before coming here and pretending to be an Ismaili and displaying nothing but Ignorance of farmans, Ismaili Rituals and tradition that have been confirmed to be , in one form or the other, existing since millenniums...

The form may change as our Imam said Ismailism is not rigid but the principles are the same. Rigidity of the faith is only in the empty head of the Shariatis. And only Shariati think that Islam is only existing since 14 Centuries when we know that Allah himself brought the angels to submission by asking them "Am I not your Lord" which submission was the very definition of Islam. Or Maybe you should first study Islam and when you understand it, please go one step higher and come to the study of Ismailis.

On this Forum you have done nothing but unsuccessfully tried to ridicule the Ismaili faith, its doctrine and rituals, making a mockery of the status of the Pirs and the Imams since a long time. With your credibility now at zero, perhaps it is time for you to rethink your future path and your presence on this Forum.

I do not need any answer from you and in any case, if there is any, I will delete it. Be sure of that.
swamidada
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Post by swamidada »

I love you, you love me
We are happy enemies
Will go on for ever
Till sun keep rising

Mulla ji I know Islam and Ismailism well. I follow the Hidayat of Present Imam Shah Karim al Hussaini.
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