Farman on Homosexuality?

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hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

And to answer your questions YES. Those parents' have no right to disown them based on their sexual orientation. Parents are supposed to have unconditional love for their child, so how come homosexuality is the only clause. Considering it is more rare for parents to disown over alcohol abuse, or even a change in faith. But the one thing, that the child doesn't have a choice over.

Look at all the stigma in society in regards to being homosexual, do you honestly think someone thought to themselves I want to put myself in a situation where I can't be accepted into most societies. Homosexuality is genetic. And to say it's wrong is like saying it's wrong to be black, white, tall, short, smart, hairy, skinny, etc.



brother i totally understand what you are going through, but blaming your parents for what you choose is totally wrong !!

jus like you choose what to wear, what to eat, whom to marry in the same way you chose to be what you want and its totally fine with me, but please dont refer yourself ISMAILI GAY or ISMAILI LESBIAN bcoz when you say ISMAILI you are dragging your religion into this , correct ?? we dont call any terrorist a muslim bcoz islam doesnt teach hatred in the same way i dont call our brothers as ismaili gay/lesbians...its not the religion which taught you thism you chose what you wanna be !!



plus do you know how much sawaab you get for helping you parents ?? when you are young you need their help and when they are old they need your help , are you getting my point ??

as i said earlier if you think what you are doing is correct then i dont have any issues with that but plzzzzz dont drag religion saying iam ISMAILI GAY/LESBIAN

thats all i want from you



@ ADMIN


i guess you are still stuck with the BANANAS , lol ...you asked me to use standard english so here iam
a1337
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Post by a1337 »

I'm not actually gay, but I believe homosexuality shouldn't excuse someone from their faith. And I think the root of this issue is that people think that being homosexual is a choice, and it isn't. Do you feel like you chose to be straight, when did you choose to be straight? You're comparing homosexuality to terrorism as if it is causing world suffering, and it to me it makes no sense how. And you say Islam doesn't teach homosexuality but it doesn't teach heterosexuality, it's just that the majority of the population is straight. homosexuality exists even beyond the human species, there are animals that are gay. They don't have our intellect so how did they come to that 'decision?'

Around the time the Quran was written, a husband would lie with another man out of 'respect' or a man would sodomize a boy out of punishment, and that is wrong, but not because it involves people of the same sex. Although this didn't happen with men to women because that would fall under adultery and that could justify the passage on homosexuality, which literally just refers to a man forsaking his wife for another man. Even then, there is no follow up as to why 'homosexuality' is wrong then or now. Every other sin has a logical reason or at the very least a reason, except this. So, at the very least, there should be a farman about this to either re-confirm or oppose.
hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

I'm not actually gay, but I believe homosexuality shouldn't excuse someone from their faith. And I think the root of this issue is that people think that being homosexual is a choice, and it isn't. Do you feel like you chose to be straight, when did you choose to be straight?
now this is where we both differ bro.
as i said earlier just like you choose what to wear, what to eat in the same way you choose whom do you wanna be with !

when you are young you have a choice
1] sit or 2] crawl

after few years later again you have a choice
1] crawl or 2] walk

god is sooooooooooooo merciful isnt it ??? this is the beauty of allah , crawling or walking doesnt come by itself my brother, when a boy is born he cannot even turn by body...after 3-4months you gonna see him lying on his stomach as most kids do ! ......WAS THAT HIS CHOICE OR IT JUS HAPPENED ???

the answer is he chose to do so.....there is this aayat in holy quran which says, when allah[swt] gives something to a person that person is veryyy happy, but if the person does something and bears loss he simply blame it on ALLAH[swt]

if that toddler choose not to walk he wont walk !

homosex is by choice

You're comparing homosexuality to terrorism as if it is causing world suffering, and it to me it makes no sense how. And you say Islam doesn't teach homosexuality but it doesn't teach heterosexuality, it's just that the majority of the population is straight. homosexuality exists even beyond the human species, there are animals that are gay. They don't have our intellect so how did they come to that 'decision?'

brother dint i told you our lord allah is veryyyyy merciful ???

there is a difference between a human and an animal, we are called "ashraful maklukaat", allah[swt] said sooo many times in quran that HUMAN BEING is the best creation of allah[swt]

read what allah says :

4:16 (Y. Ali) If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.


if two homosexuals commit adultery punish them, this is what allah says ,but ...but if they repent saying they wont do it again ....LEAVE THEM, y ????

bcoz allah[swt] is veryyyyyyy merciful


my dear brother nothing , nothing is left out in the holy book of god

Around the time the Quran was written, a husband would lie with another man out of 'respect' or a man would sodomize a boy out of punishment, and that is wrong, but not because it involves people of the same sex. Although this didn't happen with men to women because that would fall under adultery and that could justify the passage on homosexuality, which literally just refers to a man forsaking his wife for another man. Even then, there is no follow up as to why 'homosexuality' is wrong then or now. Every other sin has a logical reason or at the very least a reason, except this. So, at the very least, there should be a farman about this to either re-confirm or oppose.

bro just because the man used to sleep with a boy or another man thats the only reason why allah[swt] forbid this activity because its un-islamic.

the problem is brother you wanna read only those verse from quran that supports your statement, there are clear instructions on GAYSEX and ADULTERY

4:15 (Y. Ali) If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.

17:32 Nor come nigh to ADULTERY: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

24:3 Let no man guilty of ADULTERY or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever[non muslim]: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.

24:2 The woman and the man guilty of ADULTERY or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
a1337
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Post by a1337 »

So when did you choose to be straight?
hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

lol, gud question.....jus like i choose to crawl,walk,talk,wear gud clothes ...similarly i chose to b a man :wink:
TheMaw
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Post by TheMaw »

hungama25 wrote:lol, gud question.....jus like i choose to crawl,walk,talk,wear gud clothes ...similarly i chose to b a man :wink
Choose to write in English while you are at it.
hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

:roll:
Last edited by hungama25 on Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

So when did you choose to be straight?

now that i have answered your question @ above i wanted to ask you, aren't we all straight ?? :)

you were chosen to be a man and you are one

sis maw was chosen to be a woman and she is one

so what went wrong ??


if gaysex is not by choice then allah[swt] would have changed your package completely , instead of making you man he would have made you woman OR you would have got a different package [man with woman's body parts] but thats not the case !!

4:16 (Y. Ali) If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

the above aayat is for people[man & woman] who prefer same sex


homosex is by choice and not by birth



Mukhtar K. Ahmed Al-Mesalati is the author of a book titled: "Introducing the QUR'AN: The book of ALLAH." In it, the author attempts to show that the Qur'an is scientifically valid, that Islam is a religion of peace; that it teaches tolerance; and that it is the only valid religion in the world. He also attempts to clear up many of the misconceptions about Islam that are widespread in the West.

The author discusses three passages from the Qur'an which touch on same-sex sexual behavior. He concludes:

"Some people claim that a sodomite is genetic, but this is wrong. A sodomite is an evil habit, like alcohol. It can start as a trail and experiment and then turn into addiction and disease."



Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) has written:

"Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education."

"There are many reasons why it is forbidden in Islam. Homosexuality is dangerous for the health of the individuals and for the society. It is a main cause of one of the most harmful and fatal diseases. It is disgraceful for both men and women. It degrades a person. Islam teaches that men should be men and women should be women. Homosexuality deprives a man of his manhood and a woman of her womanhood. It is the most un-natural way of life. Homosexuality leads to the destruction of family life."




Homosexuality cannot be caused by genes because if there is a "gay gene" it would cause homosexuality to die out quickly because homosexuals typically do not have children. :lol:
a1337
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Post by a1337 »

I asked you when, not did you. Your opinion is clear that you did choose, and the point where you crawled, walked, wore 'good' clothes exist at finite points in time, so what point in time did you decide?

We didn't choose our gender, genetics did. I doubt people chose to be hermaphrodites but it happens. Your argument about being born the sex opposite of the one you're attracted to you is completely faulty. If Allah is in control, and considering things like the male g-spot, there is a reason for some people being attracted to the same sex.

As for that book, no matter how much you want to say it, the Quran is NOT a scientific text. Science is a method! And these quotes you grabbed are both untrue and completely unfounded. You know how you take issue with attaching homosexuality to Islam, the same goes with ignorance.

I'll give you credit as to the one intelligent argument you gave in regards to the gay gene. I already talked about it in a previous post so I won't go into too much detail, but the predominant theory supported by evolutionary psychologists is that there are genes that would say make a woman more attracted to men and the gain of this gene would lead to more mating and therefore more offspring who have that gene. However, it sometimes isn't limited to the woman and men with this gene are gay. But because the woman is still producing off spring, evolution keeps this gene in circulation and the cost is ~5% of the human population being homosexual.

You try to use 'morals' as a means of dismissing homosexuality but you fail to cite examples of how this is bad. I'm assuming you're basing these things of false facts like homosexuals starting aids, which were lies invented by people with a similar agenda as yours.
TheMaw
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Post by TheMaw »

hungama25 wrote:Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) has written:
Quoting ISNA is ALWAYS a bad choice. Those guys suck.
hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

We didn't choose our gender, genetics did. I doubt people chose to be hermaphrodites but it happens. Your argument about being born the sex opposite of the one you're attracted to you is completely faulty. If Allah is in control, and considering things like the male g-spot, there is a reason for some people being attracted to the same sex.

and who are hermaphrodites ?? before i begin i just wanna say that quran is the book for humankind and not animals.

animal or plant that normally possesses both male and female reproductive systems, producing both eggs and sperm are called hermaphrodites. Many plants, including most flowering plants (angiosperms), are hermaphroditic, or monoecious; in these, male and female reproductive structures are present in the same plant, often in the same flower, and many hermaphrodite flowers are self-pollinated. Many lower animals, especially immobile species, are hermaphroditic; in some, such as earthworms, two animals copulate and fertilize each other. Some parasitic species, e.g., the tapeworm, are self-fertile as well as hermaphroditic, insuring reproduction where the parasite may be the only member of its species in the host. Many hermaphrodites are protandrous or protogynous, i.e., gametes of the two sexes are produced in the same organism, sometimes in the same gonad, but at different times; in such organisms (e.g., the oyster and the sage plant) self-fertilization is impossible.

so tell me this if 2 homosexuals mate can they conceive ??? the answer is ofcourse biiiiiiiiiiiig NO , humanbeings are not hermaphrodites we belong to the family of Hominidae (taxonomically Homo sapiens — Latin which means "wise human" or "knowing human")



As for that book, no matter how much you want to say it, the Quran is NOT a scientific text. Science is a method! And these quotes you grabbed are both untrue and completely unfounded. You know how you take issue with attaching homosexuality to Islam, the same goes with ignorance.
the quotes are totally authentic and true, well if you dont wanna believe then thats a different story, there is no place for homosexuality in islam and god made this very clear in his book when he said punish those who do this act, if they repent leave them , ignorance is denouncing the facts and simply sticking to your statement.


I'll give you credit as to the one intelligent argument you gave in regards to the gay gene. I already talked about it in a previous post so I won't go into too much detail, but the predominant theory supported by evolutionary psychologists is that there are genes that would say make a woman more attracted to men and the gain of this gene would lead to more mating and therefore more offspring who have that gene. However, it sometimes isn't limited to the woman and men with this gene are gay. But because the woman is still producing off spring, evolution keeps this gene in circulation and the cost is ~5% of the human population being homosexual.
my dear friend allah[swt] already made this very clear in his holy book , he created a man and a woman, the law of attraction began from h.adam and eve [as], this law has been there even before the arrival of so called "SCIENCE" and regarding 5% population being gay then that by choice and not by genes because

1] if the parents are straight then there is no way the son/daughter will be born gay

2] if the parents are gay[same sex] then they wont have kids :wink:

either or brother the theory which you are dying to prove is a false theory

You try to use 'morals' as a means of dismissing homosexuality but you fail to cite examples of how this is bad. I'm assuming you're basing these things of false facts like homosexuals starting aids, which were lies invented by people with a similar agenda as yours.

dont we all live in a society that runs on moral values ??? and you are bang on target my friend because in the year 1981 the very first case of a disease[AIDS] was registered in new york even though aids started in early 70's or 3-4 years before that

Kaposi's Sarcoma (KS) was a rare form of relatively benign cancer that tended to occur in older people. But by March 1981 at least eight cases of a more aggressive form of KS had occurred amongst young gay men in New York.

At about the same time there was an increase, in both California and New York, in the number of cases of a rare lung infection Pneumocystis carinii pneumonia (PCP)3. In April this increase in PCP was noticed at the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) in Atlanta. A drug technician, Sandra Ford, noticed a high number of requests for the drug pentamine, used in the treatment of PCP:

"A doctor was treating a gay man in his 20s who had pneumonia. Two weeks later, he called to ask for a refill of a rare drug that I handled. This was unusual - nobody ever asked for a refill. Patients usually were cured in one 10-day treatment or they died" - Sandra Ford for Newsweek
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

a1337 wrote:I'm not actually gay, but I believe homosexuality shouldn't excuse someone from their faith. And I think the root of this issue is that people think that being homosexual is a choice, and it isn't. Do you feel like you chose to be straight, when did you choose to be straight?
There is an interesting article about the relationship between genes and environment at:

http://judson.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03 ... 8ty&emc=ty

Excerpt:
"After all this, you may wonder if your genes are ultimately to blame for your fortunes, good or ill. That’s hardly the case: only one-fourth of the variation in life events is heritable, which means that three-fourths is not. So you have plenty of opportunity to influence your circumstances. Whether that’s better than turning into your parents, we’ll leave to your judgment."

As the above statement indicates our environment is the chief influence upon our behaviour. Else why has homosexuality been more highlighted in the Western permissive society?

In my opinion the essential purpose of sex is procreation. Homosexuality goes counter to this and hence it is sinful. Of course there is sinful heterosexuality as well.
a1337
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Post by a1337 »

Hungama, your desperation to scapegoat homosexuals for society's problems is pointless at best. Unprotected sex caused the spread of disease, which is why it picked up more with homosexuals than with hetrosexuals. It is completely irrelevant to their orientation. I should also point out that are many reported cases of human hermaphrodites, which was why I brought it up. They are still people. And did you even read my argument about genetics. the mother passes the gay gene for men and the father have the gay gene for women, and the advantage of the woman having the gay gene for men and vice versa is that it makes them more prone to sexual reproduction, which is why it has lasted for so long. As for the Quran, I'll say it again because you don't seem to get it, science is a method, therefore the Quran is not scientific. Also, the Quran is entirely based upon interpretation, so I should probably spit that petty attempt of wit back at you about how ignorance is ignoring the facts and sticking to your statement. You seem to have this fear of homosexuality because you don't understand it, you can only seem to say it's wrong without your own ethical reason.

Kmaherali, I read your article, and it had nothing to do with homosexuality but more with human behaviour. I can see your point given the mind set you have, but homosexuality isn't considered a mental disorder anymore. While it is true that nurture has a greater impact than nature in theory, however, if you're born black, you'll always be black despite the upbringing. You may deny being black, you might embrace being black, but at the end of the day you'll be black. Your argument about sex without procreation is a valid argument, I can argue that technically, homosexuals can't have sexual intercourse, but we both know you're right about that in theory. In practice on the other hand, couples having sex strictly for procreation is really rare or non-existent. I will retort your argument about the increased number of homosexuals in the western world vs other places that oppose it. This is because the measurement is flawed, in the western world, more homosexuals are out of the closet than in other places. This is probably because in other places if you confess to being a homosexual, you'll face so much persecution. I mean, look at ismaili history, we were underground and secretly practicing islam for so long because of fear of persecution, so can you really trust those numbers to be true.
hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

Hungama, your desperation to scapegoat homosexuals for society's problems is pointless at best. Unprotected sex caused the spread of disease, which is why it picked up more with homosexuals than with hetrosexuals. It is completely irrelevant to their orientation. I should also point out that are many reported cases of human hermaphrodites, which was why I brought it up. They are still people. And did you even read my argument about genetics. the mother passes the gay gene for men and the father have the gay gene for women, and the advantage of the woman having the gay gene for men and vice versa is that it makes them more prone to sexual reproduction, which is why it has lasted for so long. As for the Quran, I'll say it again because you don't seem to get it, science is a method, therefore the Quran is not scientific. Also, the Quran is entirely based upon interpretation, so I should probably spit that petty attempt of wit back at you about how ignorance is ignoring the facts and sticking to your statement. You seem to have this fear of homosexuality because you don't understand it, you can only seem to say it's wrong without your own ethical reason.



Homosexuality is defined as sexual relations between like genders (i.e., two males or two females). It was Sigmund Freud who first postulated that parental relationships with a child ultimately determine the youngster’s sexual orientation. But this “nurturing” aspect has effectively given way to the “nature” side of the equation. Can some behaviors (e.g., alcoholism, homosexuality, schizophrenia) be explained by genetics? Are these and other behaviors influenced by nature or by nurture? Are they inborn or learned? Some individuals believed that the answer would be found hiding amidst the chromosomes analyzed in the Human Genome Project.

The human X and Y chromosomes (the two “sex” chromosomes) have been completely sequenced. Thanks to work carried out by labs all across the globe, we know that the X chromosome contains 153 million base pairs, and harbors a total of 1168 genes (see NCBI, 2004). The National Center for Biotechnology Information reports that the Y chromosome—which is much smaller—contains “only” 50 million base pairs, and is estimated to contain a mere 251 genes. Educational institutions such as Baylor University, the Max Planck Institute, the Sanger Institute, Washington University in St. Louis, and others have spent countless hours and millions of research dollars analyzing these unique chromosomes. As the data began to pour in, they allowed scientists to construct gene maps—using actual sequences from the Human Genome Project. And yet, neither the map for the X nor the Y chromosome contains any “gay gene.”


In an effort to affect public policy and gain acceptance, the assertion often is made that homosexuals deserve equal rights just as other minority groups—and should not be punished for, or forbidden from, expressing their homosexuality. The fight for the acceptance of homosexuality often is compared to “civil rights” movements of racial minorities. Due to America’s failure to settle fully the civil rights issue (i.e., full and equal citizenship of racial minorities), social liberals, feminists, and homosexual activists were provided with the perfect “coat tail” to ride to advance their agenda. Using this camouflage of innate civil liberties, homosexual activists were able to divert attention away from the behavior, and focus it on the “rights.”


The argument goes like this: “Just as a person cannot help being black, female, or Asian, I cannot help being homosexual. We were all born this way, and as such we should be treated equally.” However, this argument fails to comprehend the true “civil rights” movements. The law already protects the civil rights of everyone—black, white, male, female, homosexual, or heterosexual. Homosexuals enjoy the same civil rights everyone else does. The contention arises when specific laws deprive all citizens of certain behaviors (e.g., sodomy, etc.). We should keep in mind that these laws are the same for all members of society. Because of certain deprivations, homosexuals feel as though “equal” rights have been taken away (i.e., marriage, tax breaks, etc.).


Skin color and other genetic traits can be traced through inheritance patterns and simple Mendelian genetics. Homosexuals are identified not by a trait or a gene, but rather by their actions :lol: . Without the action, they would be indistinguishable from all other people. It is only when they alter their behavior that they become a group that is recognized as being different. If we were to assume momentarily that homosexuality was genetic, then the most one could conclude is that those individuals were not morally responsible for being homosexual. However, that does not mean that they are not morally responsible for homosexual actions! Merely having the gene would not force one to carry out the behavior. For instance, if scientists were able to document that a “rape gene” existed, we certainly would not blame an individual for possessing this gene, but neither would we allow him to act upon that rape disposition. Neil Risch and his coworkers admitted:

There is little disagreement that male homosexual orientation is not a Mendelian trait. In fact, a priori, one would expect the role of a major gene in male homosexual orientation to be limited because of the strong selective pressures against such a gene. It is unlikely that a major gene underlying such a common trait could persist over time without an extraordinary counterbalancing mechanism (1993, 262:2064).


Evan S. Balaban, a neurobiologist at the Neurosciences Institute in San Diego, noted that


the search for the biological underpinnings of complex human traits has a sorry history of late. In recent years, researchers and the media have proclaimed the “discovery” of genes linked to alcoholism and mental illness as well as to homosexuality. None of the claims...has been confirmed (as quoted in Horgan, 1995). :wink:
hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

Professor LeVay has admitted:

It’s important to stress what I didn’t find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn’t show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain


Consider the obvious problem of survival for individuals who allegedly possess a gay gene: individuals who have partners of the same sex are biologically unable to reproduce (without resorting to artificial means).[/b]

Therefore, if an alleged “gay gene” did exist, the homosexual population eventually would disappear altogether. We now know that it is not scientifically accurate to refer to a “gay gene” as the causative agent in homosexuality. The available evidence clearly establishes that no such gene has been identified.
a1337
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Post by a1337 »

But the secondary argument that supports the genetic involvement is that many animals also have a percentage that are homosexuals. You make this big push how our decisions make us 'choose' to be gay, so other animals have the same intellect as humans.

You should also be aware that a lot of the theories Freud thought of are considered false in modern psychology. That's not to say he made a lot of contributions, but his take on homosexuality was one of the dead theories.

Feminists, socials liberals and homosexuals, riding coat-tails to enhance their agenda? What agenda is that, equality? It's easy to dismiss others when you don't deal with a lack of rights. It wasn't that long ago when the gays weren't able to be teachers, own stores, or simply NOT be harassed for being gay. I assume you believe alcohol is a sin, but I doubt you spend every night burning down bars and pubs. From a legal stand point at least, marriage has evolved greatly from the transfer of property to the union of 2 souls, and it also comes with financial advantages in society, and if 2 people find love, why should they not get the advantages another couple gets in a 'non-discriminating' society.

And suddenly you're comparing homosexual sex to rape, are you serious? We're talking about 2 people expressing consensual love for each other. After all, we all a part of Allah, and the soul has no gender. So what is so evil about two people loving each other, I mean every movie in bollywood is based off 2 people who wouldn't be able to be together given their situation but love triumphs society and you all cheer.
hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

But the secondary argument that supports the genetic involvement is that many animals also have a percentage that are homosexuals. You make this big push how our decisions make us 'choose' to be gay, so other animals have the same intellect as humans.

secondary argument ??? who is talking about animals ??? i already said that quran is the book for humankind and not ANIMALS, we are called homo sapians = wise human = a human who can use his intellect[brain]...do animals have same brain as human do ? :lol: if yes then why dont i see a monkey working in nasa ???? :lol:

You should also be aware that a lot of the theories Freud thought of are considered false in modern psychology. That's not to say he made a lot of contributions, but his take on homosexuality was one of the dead theories.
exactly !!! when he couldn't find a single gay gene in any human being that that theory gotta be a dead theory !! :wink:
Feminists, socials liberals and homosexuals, riding coat-tails to enhance their agenda? What agenda is that, equality?


yes sir !!

It's easy to dismiss others when you don't deal with a lack of rights. It wasn't that long ago when the gays weren't able to be teachers, own stores, or simply NOT be harassed for being gay. I assume you believe alcohol is a sin, but I doubt you spend every night burning down bars and pubs.
allah[swt] said in holy quran that alcohol is forbidden, did he said go burn down the liquor stores ???

From a legal stand point at least, marriage has evolved greatly from the transfer of property to the union of 2 souls, and it also comes with financial advantages in society, and if 2 people find love, why should they not get the advantages another couple gets in a 'non-discriminating' society.
because there is no place for homo's either in islam or in society, but you can still live in west and be whatever you want because its kool over there, plus the term marriage is used when a MAN and WOMAN marry , even in quran allah said MAN and WOMAN and not homosex
And suddenly you're comparing homosexual sex to rape, are you serious? We're talking about 2 people expressing consensual love for each other. After all, we all a part of Allah, and the soul has no gender. So what is so evil about two people loving each other, I mean every movie in bollywood is based off 2 people who wouldn't be able to be together given their situation but love triumphs society and you all cheer.

i guess we are talking about gay gene and i gave you the example of rape gene, when you said allah created gay gene then why cant he create rape gene/murderer gene etc etc ??? :lol:

and in the movies those 2 people are actor[man] and actress[woman] ...we dont see man falling for man or woman falling for woman in bollywood...there were couple of movies which were on this topic and bombed @ box office
ShamsB
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Post by ShamsB »

hungama25 wrote:
But the secondary argument that supports the genetic involvement is that many animals also have a percentage that are homosexuals. You make this big push how our decisions make us 'choose' to be gay, so other animals have the same intellect as humans.

secondary argument ??? who is talking about animals ??? i already said that quran is the book for humankind and not ANIMALS, we are called homo sapians = wise human = a human who can use his intellect[brain]...do animals have same brain as human do ? :lol: if yes then why dont i see a monkey working in nasa ???? :lol:

You should also be aware that a lot of the theories Freud thought of are considered false in modern psychology. That's not to say he made a lot of contributions, but his take on homosexuality was one of the dead theories.
exactly !!! when he couldn't find a single gay gene in any human being that that theory gotta be a dead theory !! :wink:
Feminists, socials liberals and homosexuals, riding coat-tails to enhance their agenda? What agenda is that, equality?


yes sir !!

It's easy to dismiss others when you don't deal with a lack of rights. It wasn't that long ago when the gays weren't able to be teachers, own stores, or simply NOT be harassed for being gay. I assume you believe alcohol is a sin, but I doubt you spend every night burning down bars and pubs.
allah[swt] said in holy quran that alcohol is forbidden, did he said go burn down the liquor stores ???

From a legal stand point at least, marriage has evolved greatly from the transfer of property to the union of 2 souls, and it also comes with financial advantages in society, and if 2 people find love, why should they not get the advantages another couple gets in a 'non-discriminating' society.
because there is no place for homo's either in islam or in society, but you can still live in west and be whatever you want because its kool over there, plus the term marriage is used when a MAN and WOMAN marry , even in quran allah said MAN and WOMAN and not homosex
And suddenly you're comparing homosexual sex to rape, are you serious? We're talking about 2 people expressing consensual love for each other. After all, we all a part of Allah, and the soul has no gender. So what is so evil about two people loving each other, I mean every movie in bollywood is based off 2 people who wouldn't be able to be together given their situation but love triumphs society and you all cheer.

i guess we are talking about gay gene and i gave you the example of rape gene, when you said allah created gay gene then why cant he create rape gene/murderer gene etc etc ??? :lol:

and in the movies those 2 people are actor[man] and actress[woman] ...we dont see man falling for man or woman falling for woman in bollywood...there were couple of movies which were on this topic and bombed @ box office
Marriage is an act of religion - it is an act of faith. You can not force a religion to change it's rules to accommodate anyone. In our faith we are told, Only the IMAM has the authority to do that, and the IMAM both Hazar Imam and MSMS have stated - our religion is one of conviction not one convenience and only HE can make changes; and until he makes changes - what I think or you think doesn't matter.
As I have stated before I am no one to stand in judgment over anyone else - I myself am a sinner. Only Allah can judge someone. I follow the Farmans as I have promised to and that tells me to respect everyone - and treat them as equals and I do that.

To the comments in regards to marraige being equal - since our tariqah at this time doesn't allow for same sex marriage - and a lot of the other faiths don't -and if you want the religious sanctity that you claim is the right; you can form your own church that allows it, your own sect that allows it.

the other option if you're only concerned about the legal part of it; then you can term it as a civil union - and only have the legal trappings; if 2 people are in love and as you claim it is the union of 2 souls - then why should it matter if someone blesses it or not...they're together and all is needed is the legal piece of it.

Shams
a1337
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Post by a1337 »

ShamsB, marriage is a legal transfer of property that eventually became a religious ceremony. But I am talking about strictly legal ceremonies, while they are legal in canada, they are not in the US. Bare in mind that polygamy is fine in Islam even though most of us are opposed to it now, and it had its use in the society at that current time, but things tend to evolve and that is the perk of having a present living imam. MHI hasn't mentioned homosexuality, and it seems like the implication in Quran was referring more to men lying with men for the purpose of respect (like sleeping with your boss for a promotion type thing, which happened back then,) and men sodomizing boys as punishment, which no matter what will always be wrong regardless of gender. It also seems like there is a misplaced fear that homosexuality is a result of environment, and it seems to drive this force to ostracize them. It's hard to say whether it's implied given that the bulk of ismailis are conservative, or he's waiting for the right time, or anything.

Hungama, you're arguing that animals do have the same brain as us if they're 'choosing' to be homosexuals as well, that's the point I'm making. As far as we're aware the only animal capable of moral thought are humans, so clearly this goes beyond any conscious decision. Just as a side note, lab notes do have a very similar brain chemistry as ours. Freud's theories are dead because they failed to explain everything AND a new theory made Freud's obsolete, I suggest you learn how the scientific method works before you attempt to make foolish retorts. For now, I'll skip your absolutely moronic views on equality because it's not completely relavent to this thread, but I do want to discuss it. However, you claim Allah says homosexual sex is forbidden, but here you are trying to make sure they don't exist, judging them, etc. how is that not hypocritical. Can i ask you to not use those smug emoticons, we all know your views on homosexuality, but can you at least be respectful when you make your arguments, you're equating homosexuals to rapists, which is unbelievably faulty considering rape is wrong because it is an extension of assaulting a person, the 2 persons who are homosexual both agree. Rape is a serious crime and I know people who have tragically been victims of it, so I ask you to stop making that argument, it only makes you seem more ignorant and offensive.

Overall, I feel like this debate is going to come down to how one wants to interpret the Quran and the facts that exist in society. It stands that the predominant theory behind homosexuality is the genetic element, and I should point out that the genetic element means that one will always like a member of the same sex, acting on it is a result of environment, and there's no harm other than the judgment others seem to pass to them. And the harm or negative consequence of homosexuality seems to not be mentioned at all in this forum.
hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

To the comments in regards to marraige being equal - since our tariqah at this time doesn't allow for same sex marriage - and a lot of the other faiths don't -and if you want the religious sanctity that you claim is the right; you can form your own church that allows it, your own sect that allows it.
brother i am against same sex marriage , according to quran its a sin. Iam not trying to change our religion or our kriyas what iam saying is please do not use the term ismaili gay or ismaili lesbian because its not the religion that forced you[people] to be gay

the other option if you're only concerned about the legal part of it; then you can term it as a civil union - and only have the legal trappings; if 2 people are in love and as you claim it is the union of 2 souls - then why should it matter if someone blesses it or not...they're together and all is needed is the legal piece of it.

thats exactly my point brother!!
hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

Freud's theories are dead because they failed to explain everything AND a new theory made Freud's obsolete, I suggest you learn how the scientific method works before you attempt to make foolish retorts.
:lol: look at you , never proved anything about gay genetics and here you are saying iam a fool :P you are a messiah of gays, act like one :lol:

For now, I'll skip your absolutely moronic views on equality because it's not completely relavent to this thread, but I do want to discuss it.


accept it now , there is no such thing called gay gene's becuase nobody is born gay, its by choice!

However, you claim Allah says homosexual sex is forbidden, but here you are trying to make sure they don't exist, judging them, etc. how is that not hypocritical.


mr.genius !! i think i already gave an aayat from holy quran where allah[swt] said punish, i repeat he said punish.........he never said iam going to punish [well ofcourse he will] but the aayat goes like this:

4:16 (Y. Ali) If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.

LEWDNESS - Preoccupied with sex and sexual desire,lustful,Obscene; indecent, feeling or devoted to sexual love.

mr.genius its not me its you = hypocrite

Can i ask you to not use those smug emoticons, we all know your views on homosexuality, but can you at least be respectful when you make your arguments, you're equating homosexuals to rapists, which is unbelievably faulty considering rape is wrong because it is an extension of assaulting a person, the 2 persons who are homosexual both agree. Rape is a serious crime and I know people who have tragically been victims of it, so I ask you to stop making that argument, it only makes you seem more ignorant and offensive.

brother you should focus on the proof and not on emotions, plus when a gene can be gay why cant it be of rapist or murderer
Overall, I feel like this debate is going to come down to how one wants to interpret the Quran and the facts that exist in society. It stands that the predominant theory behind homosexuality is the genetic element, and I should point out that the genetic element means that one will always like a member of the same sex, acting on it is a result of environment, and there's no harm other than the judgment others seem to pass to them. And the harm or negative consequence of homosexuality seems to not be mentioned at all in this forum.
yeh right , according to you 1 billion muslims are fools to say homosexuality is haram.

quran is full of facts and one of the facts is HOMOSEX is haram.

and regarding genetics prove me that you can find gay genes or gay genes exist


homosexuality is by choice , just like no baby is born thief,rapist or murderer in the same way no baby is born gay, a human being can make a mistake but allah[swt] cant !!!
a1337
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Post by a1337 »

I suggest you read my entire point instead of using a fraction of what I say when you try to come up with a retort, I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain something REPEATEDLY with someone too stupid and self absorbed to take this debate seriously.

So, tell me, what is so lewd about homosexuals? Explain that!
hungama25
Posts: 126
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:43 am

Post by hungama25 »

I suggest you read my entire point instead of using a fraction of what I say when you try to come up with a retort, I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain something REPEATEDLY with someone too stupid and self absorbed to take this debate seriously.


as i said earlier you have already showed us your stupidity by saying gay genes exist !!!

when i gave you an example of rapist or murderer gene you tend to move on emotional side[which ofcourse all gay people do] but its not gonna work on me because all the proofs which i gave you are based on science and holy quran

and you have already wasted soooooo much energy and time by proving nothing :wink:

So, tell me, what is so lewd about homosexuals? Explain that!

mr.messiah/genius

god said in holy quran that gaysex is a sin

SIN-noun

MEANING - A transgression of a religious or moral law, espically when deliberate

Deliberate disobedience to the known will of god

Something regarded as shameful,deplorable or utterly wrong


7:80 (Y. Ali) We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?

7:81 (Y. Ali) "For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women : ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."

29:28 (Y. Ali) And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you.

29:29 (Y. Ali) "Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth."


Our Prophet, sallallahu alayhe wa sallam, said, “Some people will blindly follow the ways of those before them, inch for inch and step by step, to the extent that if they entered a dark hole, they would follow and if they performed sexual activity with their mother in the middle of the road, they would follow.’ We said, ‘O Prophet of Allah, who? The Jews and the Christians?’ He said, ‘ Who else?” (Agreed Upon)


It is hard to see how Islam and homosexuality can be united in the heart of one person. Indeed, this is impossible, unless this person, for some reason, knows nothing about Islam, not even the basics. Such a person should be educated in this aspect, and if he insists on his erroneous beliefs, there is no doubt that he has regressed in his Islamic belief and became a non-believer.

Anyone who believes homosexuality is permissible, even if he does not practice it himself, is, in Muslim opinion, a non-believer. He does not believe in the teachings of Allah, his Prophet, sallallahu alayhe wa sallam, and the Muslims. He has not believed any of the verses and ahadeeth which prohibit homosexuality and describe it as one of the greatest sins of all. Anyone who rejects even one verse of the Qur’an is agreed to be a non-believer. In this case, the verses and ahadeeth prohibiting the practice of homosexuality are plenty.

We are further informed of the evilness of this sin in the following hadeeth, “ The curse of Allah be upon he who has sexual activity with an animal, and he who imitates the people of Lut.” (Ahmad and Tirmithi) Does it satisfy these people that they are under the course of the Prophet, sallallahu alayhe wa sallam, and that they be denied the mercy of Allah?

The crime of homosexuality has many serious consequences and harms, which are sooner or later, endured by the offender. This is because it is an evidence of every kind of evil in the character of the offender. He lacks all virtues: faith, ethics, basic principles and shame. This sin is the culmination of deception and betrayal. As well as the worldly punishment of being put to death by stoning or burning, the offender will be excluded from the mercy of Allah and placed under His curse, being subjected to all kinds of torture in the hereafter. The wrath and fury of Allah is a great humiliation, “And whomever Allah humilities can not be dignified by anyone.”

Another serious consequence to homosexual activity is the birth of serious diseases that plague the Earth. The AIDS virus claims millions of lives every year and this kind of sexual deviance is among its main causes.
hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

Another of the punishments for this sin is told by Ali ibn Abi Talib[as] [my my life be sacrificed for my holy imam]:

“ Whoever willingly submits to be a partner in homosexual activity, Allah will make him the subject of the desires of women, and will make him a stoned devil in his grave until the Day of Judgment.”



finally mr.messiah/genius do whatever you wanna do but do not put our god given faith ISLAM in your utter nonsense.
a1337
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Post by a1337 »

ok, apparently the bedrock of my question goes unnoticed by you, so I'll phrase it simply: Why? Sins are bad because they have a negative influence on the individuals or others, so merely saying it's bad because I believe people who died 1400 years ago interpreted it to be bad, so give me a rational reason, if you're capable of such thought.
TheMaw
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Post by TheMaw »

hungama25 wrote:Another of the punishments for this sin is told by Ali ibn Abi Talib[as] [my my life be sacrificed for my holy imam]: “Whoever willingly submits to be a partner in homosexual activity, Allah will make him the subject of the desires of women, and will make him a stoned devil in his grave until the Day of Judgment.”
That hadith is not a true one - it's not accepted by scholars.
hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

1. Homosexuality is an unnatural way of satisfying the sexual instinct, it is therefore an act of Fuhush meaning lewdness and indecency.

“And Lut, when he said to his people: Do you commit a lewdness which no one has ever done in the worlds before you?”

The fact that no one before had done this shameful act, by itself proves that homosexuality is an unnatural act. And from the time of Prophet Lut (as) until today, Sodomy has been in practice but with one big difference: In the past, despite its existence, homosexuality had always been regarded as a pervert sexual behaviour, whereas today, it has been labelled as a natural act and an inborn tendency!

2. Allah (SWT) has created two different sexes: male and female for each other to satisfy their instincts lawfully and for pro-creation purpose. “God created Adam for Eve and not for Steve”, as the saying goes. People who indulge in Sodomy are enemies of mankind who are going against the law of nature and creating hindrance in the development of human-race. Such people are termed as Qaumun Musrifoon which means wasteful people.

“Verily you satisfy your lust with men instead of women. Nay, you are a wasteful people”.


now lemme answer you stupid question

Why does Islam condemn homosexuality when research today has shown that it is ‘inborn tendency’ ?

Firstly, research is a continuous process. Today it will tell you one thing and tomorrow something else in contrast. We can therefore not believe in it especially if it is contradicting Quran & Hadeeth.

Secondly, how can homosexuality be ‘inborn tendency’ when not a single man, before the people of Prophet Lut(as) had indulged in it. Quran explicitly says that Prophet Lut (as) had told his people: “Do you commit a lewdness which no one has ever done in the worlds before you?” If it was an ‘inborn tendency’, then atleast someone should have done it before.

Thirdly, even if we assume that homosexuality is an ‘inborn tendency’, why did then Allah (SWT), who is the Creator of everyone, destroy the people who practiced it? Is this Justice of God that He Himself creates men in a certain pattern and then punishes them for it? This certainly does not make any sense!

According to Islam, Sodomy is a horrible crime and it is worse than Zinaa.

Imam Ja’ffar as-Sadiq (as) said: Certainly Allah destroyed a complete nation (people of Lut) because they indulged in sodomy. Allah has not destroyed even one man for adultery”. (Wasael ash-Shia’h)
Imam Ali (as) said: “Refrain from adultery and sodomy, and this sodomy is worse than adultery. These two sins are the causes of seventy two (72) ills of this life and the Hereafter”. (Fiqh ar-Ridha)
qifar
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Post by qifar »

Those references only refer to sodomy. Seems to me you all have no arguments against lesbianism or two men engaging in falacio. aleet's animal arguments seems to satisfy that those actions are not unnatural excepting them from you unnaturally lewd argument.
hungama25
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Post by hungama25 »

Those references only refer to sodomy. Seems to me you all have no arguments against lesbianism or two men engaging in falacio. aleet's animal arguments seems to satisfy that those actions are not unnatural excepting them from you unnaturally lewd argument.

“You lust after men instead of women. Truly, you are a degenerate people.” – 7:81.

“Do you commit indecency with your eyes open, lustfully seeking men instead of women? Surely you are an ignorant people.” – 27:54-55.



the above aayat is not just limited to man, if you read the above aayats carefully u'll see that allah has created woman for man so that they can staisfy each other

man is for woman and woman is for man
TheMaw
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Post by TheMaw »

hungama25 wrote:if you read the above aayats carefully u'll see that allah has created woman for man so that they can staisfy each other

man is for woman and woman is for man
Except men don't satisfy me, sir. Women do. I believe Sappho said it best several thousand years ago to a woman she was in love with:
He is more than a hero
he is a god in my eyes--
the man who is allowed
to sit beside you -- he

who listens intimately
to the sweet murmur of
your voice, the enticing

laughter that makes my own
heart beat fast. If I meet
you suddenly, I can't

speak -- my tongue is broken;
a thin flame runs under
my skin; seeing nothing,

hearing only my own ears
drumming, I drip with sweat;
trembling shakes my body

and I turn paler than
dry grass. At such times
death isn't far from me.
Oh, wait... didn't you say Qur'an says no one ever was gay before it?
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