Doing away with ACTS of sharia

Discussion on doctrinal issues
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

Admin wrote:You may want to read the last article in Portuguese on Hazar Imam. "A god on Earth" You may not like it.
Please look at the wordings " A god on earth ", god with small "g" is used for worldly gods. There are scores of such 'Baba gods' in Hinduism and Christianity.
I like and adore Hazar Imam as Mazhar of Allah and Intercessor to Allah.
Admin
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Post by Admin »

shivaathervedi wrote:Still waiting for the Ginan 'Ali Rupey Hari Aawiya'!!
You have been waiting since 14 March 2017 for this reference. Better late than never:

Ginan by Syed Imam Shah: Dailam Desh ne khand Eraq mahe

I have given here a copy from an old Khojki manuscript so you know it is not a recent invention.

Here it is: First image is the heading of the ginan and the second is the end of the ginan where the sentence appears.

Image


Image
shivaathervedi_2
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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:20 pm

Post by shivaathervedi_2 »

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:Still waiting for the Ginan 'Ali Rupey Hari Aawiya'!!
You have been waiting since 14 March 2017 for this reference. Better late than never:

Ginan by Syed Imam Shah: Dailam Desh ne khand Eraq mahe

I have given here a copy from an old Khojki manuscript so you know it is not a recent invention.

Here it is: First image is the heading of the ginan and the second is the end of the ginan where the sentence appears.

Image


Image

I tried hard to locate the above Ginan mentioned by you but in vain. I checked on Heritage, Ginans published by Recreation club Mumbai, In Kamal Zar series. I personally have 650+ Ginans but unsuccessful.

In khojki script the name appears to be of Pir Imam Shah and, it is mentioned in the last couplet also. Was Syed Imam Shah a Satadari Pir, if not then how it appears in the text. May be you collected the script from Pirana. I have a Ginan book published by Ismailia Association Kenya in 1964, it also mentions Imam Shah as Pir.
PIR INDRA IMAMDIN ASHA MUKHE BOLIYA VENTI....
Going through the Ginans published by Recreation club, I found a Ginan by Imam Shah;
JI RE BHAI RE PIR IMAM SHAH BOLIYA
RAM WADEY AAGHA NAHI JAOU(N) JI

Now refering to quote ' Ali rupe Hari aaviya ' means Ali came in shape or appearance of Hari.

During his first visit after partition MSMS said to Waras Hud bhai first president of Ismailia Association Pakistan " Waras Ginan mey Hari ko Ali kardo".

Past three decades, what ever publications of Ginans from at least 3 countries I haven't seen word Hari in place of Ali in newly published Ginan books.
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Post by Admin »

shivaathervedi wrote: Now refering to quote ' Ali rupe Hari aaviya ' means Ali came in shape or appearance of Hari.

During his first visit after partition MSMS said to Waras Hud bhai first president of Ismailia Association Pakistan " Waras Ginan mey Hari ko Ali kardo".

Past three decades, what ever publications of Ginans from at least 3 countries I haven't seen word Hari in place of Ali in newly published Ginan books.
All this has already been proven wrong. Read previous discussion and the thread on changes in the ginans. There are many pages of discussions there: http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... topic&t=18

Feel free to refresh your memory.

And if you think the shariatis of the partitions will be more happy that you say "Ali Anant" (Ali is Eternal) instead of "Hari anant" (God is eternal) , you are greatly mistaken.

Further more "Ali rupe Hari awiya" means God came in the shape of Ali, not the opposite, if you do not have the knowledge on how sentences are composed in the Indian languages, it is better not to venture in this field. You made the same translating mistake in Lakh Chorasi and many of your interpretations of other Ginanic expressions.

In English to indicate the time you may say "It is 4" but in Indian you say "4 it is" (char wagiya ay or even cha thiya, char thay che, char thaya) Needless to remind that a language is not learned in few days with the help of dictionaries.

As for Pir, of course Seyyed Imam shah was not Satadhari Pir but he was called Pir by respect like you call "Pir" Nassir Khusraw who also was not Satadhari Pir. Even among Imam shahis, they have ginans with "Syed" Imam Shah, Indra Imamuddin, Pir Imamshah etc... though they give prominence to his status.

It is wrong to say that in the past 3 decades books of ginans have been published with changes, not in Canada, never happened here.

Last thing, Manuscripts that we found in Pirana or among Imamshahis are all in Gujrati Script. Documents show that in the early 1900s' Bawa Ehmad Ali of the Imamshahis was already asking his scribes to transcribe the Khojki manuscripts of the Ismailis into Gujrati as he and the Imamshahi community did not have knowledge of Khojki.
shivaathervedi_2
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:20 pm

Post by shivaathervedi_2 »

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: Now refering to quote ' Ali rupe Hari aaviya ' means Ali came in shape or appearance of Hari.

During his first visit after partition MSMS said to Waras Hud bhai first president of Ismailia Association Pakistan " Waras Ginan mey Hari ko Ali kardo".

Past three decades, what ever publications of Ginans from at least 3 countries I haven't seen word Hari in place of Ali in newly published Ginan books.
All this has already been proven wrong. Read previous discussion and the thread on changes in the ginans. There are many pages of discussions there: http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... topic&t=18

Feel free to refresh your memory.

And if you think the shariatis of the partitions will be more happy that you say "Ali Anant" (Ali is Eternal) instead of "Hari anant" (God is eternal) , you are greatly mistaken.

Further more "Ali rupe Hari awiya" means God came in the shape of Ali, not the opposite, if you do not have the knowledge on how sentences are composed in the Indian languages, it is better not to venture in this field. You made the same translating mistake in Lakh Chorasi and many of your interpretations of other Ginanic expressions.

In English to indicate the time you may say "It is 4" but in Indian you say "4 it is" (char wagiya ay or even cha thiya, char thay che, char thaya) Needless to remind that a language is not learned in few days with the help of dictionaries.

As for Pir, of course Seyyed Imam shah was not Satadhari Pir but he was called Pir by respect like you call "Pir" Nassir Khusraw who also was not Satadhari Pir. Even among Imam shahis, they have ginans with "Syed" Imam Shah, Indra Imamuddin, Pir Imamshah etc... though they give prominence to his status.

It is wrong to say that in the past 3 decades books of ginans have been published with changes, not in Canada, never happened here.

Last thing, Manuscripts that we found in Pirana or among Imamshahis are all in Gujrati Script. Documents show that in the early 1900s' Bawa Ehmad Ali of the Imamshahis was already asking his scribes to transcribe the Khojki manuscripts of the Ismailis into Gujrati as he and the Imamshahi community did not have knowledge of Khojki.

1.Your language example is fidget. Every language has its own way of expression and grammar. Some are written left to right and some right to left and some are from top to bottom.
By the way, I know Gujrati and Khojki well but let me add, I know 7 languages of subcontinent.

2.The Ginan you mentioned is not available in any Ginan books published by Ismaila Associations, ITREB, or even in Ginans published by Recreation club. If you have complete ginan please post it.

3. Nasir did not called himself as Pir, but in his Ginans Syed Imam Shah has introduced himself as Pir. I gave references, I have more. I gave example from a Ginan Book published by Ismailia Association Kenya. How come they mentioned him as a Pir when he was not?

4.Can you mention from which area, city, or country you collected that script.
Does that particular Ginan available in any Ginan publication from Canada.
After 1969 Ginan workshops and 1975 conference, apparently there were two groups divided on Ginans. One from subcontinent and other from African continent.

5. All the Khojki manuscripts mostly start with " ALLAH TOU AAHAAR" OR " ALLAH TOU AADHAAR" followed by Bismillahir Ramanir Rahim. I have seen these manuscripts in Karachi and interior Sindh, and couple you have posted yourself which I indicated to you.

6. Syed Imam Shah was a Muslim, he did Kitabat of Quran by himself and that was kept in his dargah at Pirana, which unfortunately was stolen few years back, a valuable treasure by an opponent group.

7. You did not refuted what MSMS said to waras Hud Bhai," Waras Ginan mey Hari ko Ali kardo"!!

8.This is a million dollar question; ALI RUPE HARI AAVIYA OR HARI RUPE ALI AAVIYA?

9. Even in recent Ginan publications there is no name of Hari mentioned.
Admin
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Post by Admin »

There is no million dollars question and I have already refuted your Hoodboy's allegations as not accurately depicting what the Imam said. Y

ou know 7 languages but can not understand plain English? I also know 7 languages so what? Where I come from, many people know many languages. You don't even know that Khojki is not a language, that it is a script. You have a long way to go.

You can not make up of how lakh chorasi can be 84 lakhs and you can not make up any decent translation of "Hari rupe Ali awiya", what does your language skills serve you for in the ginanic world?

There is no need for me to go further with this discussion. I will refrain from replying to your uninformed posts. Read again my previous posts that are in English. I have given you simple examples and accurate translation which I would have hoped that you can understand.
shivaathervedi_2
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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2018 8:20 pm

Post by shivaathervedi_2 »

Admin wrote:There is no million dollars question and I have already refuted your Hoodboy's allegations as not accurately depicting what the Imam said. Y

ou know 7 languages but can not understand plain English? I also know 7 languages so what? Where I come from, many people know many languages. You don't even know that Khojki is not a language, that it is a script. You have a long way to go.

You can not make up of how lakh chorasi can be 84 lakhs and you can not make up any decent translation of "Hari rupe Ali awiya", what does your language skills serve you for in the ginanic world?

There is no need for me to go further with this discussion. I will refrain from replying to your uninformed posts. Read again my previous posts that are in English. I have given you simple examples and accurate translation which I would have hoped that you can understand.
I asked you to post that particular Ginan complete by Syed Imam Shah but instead you choose to pick a sentence and started babbling.
I know the Khojki is a script, you did not paid the attention to my post, I wrote,' I know Gujrati and Khojki beside other languages', I didn't wrote Khojki is a complete language. You know 7 languages good for you, do you Know Arabic or Persian which are necessary for research on Ismailism?
You taunted, I don't know English, so far in what language I have been communicating, Is that Kachhi!!

Explain me why in recent publications of Ginans the word Hari is omitted. WHY DON'T YOU CRUSADE AGAINST ITREB WHO MADE CHANGES.
In past I heard from few senior missionaries and ITREB officials that MSMS did changed the word Hari and I have a paper on this subject.

When you visited Pakistan in early 2017, you should have asked ITREB Karachi about the classified Farmans of MSMS and present Imam Shah Karim, like did MSMS changed the word Hari, or did Shah Karim in 1960 explained Ali is from Allah, or other issues which you keep confronting on Heritage.

Once again, if you have that complete Ginan of Imam Shah post it, thanks.
Admin
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Post by Admin »

We will stop this "confrontation" as you call it, immediately. As I said I will not participate in your uninformed and ill motivated posts

The complete ginan starts here:

https://library.ismaili.net/books/hs0018-pic-0034-right

and ends here:

https://library.ismaili.net/books/hs0018-pic-0035-left
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