The Holy Qur'an - Early Manuscripts

Discussion on doctrinal issues
kmaherali
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The Holy Qur'an - Early Manuscripts

Post by kmaherali »

'Oldest' Koran fragments found in Birmingham University

What may be the world's oldest fragments of the Koran have been found by the University of Birmingham.

Radiocarbon dating found the manuscript to be at least 1,370 years old, making it among the earliest in existence.

The pages of the Muslim holy text had remained unrecognised in the university library for almost a century.

The British Library's expert on such manuscripts, Dr Muhammad Isa Waley, said this "exciting discovery" would make Muslims "rejoice".

More....
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33436021
mazharshah
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Re: The Holy Qur'an

Post by mazharshah »

[quote="kmaherali"]'Oldest' Koran fragments found in Birmingham University

What may be the world's oldest fragments of the Koran have been found by the University of Birmingham.

Radiocarbon dating found the manuscript to be at least 1,370 years old, making it among the earliest in existence.

The pages of the Muslim holy text had remained unrecognised in the university library for almost a century.

The British Library's expert on such manuscripts, Dr Muhammad Isa Waley, said this "exciting discovery" would make Muslims "rejoice".


Indeed it is a rejoicing information for muslims. Though carbon test is seldom accurate. We know that Mowla Ali's hand written Quran was the one which is the oldest one, the pages/parchments/fragments of that Quran are on display in museums of various muslim countries, like Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Pakistan and some pages are found in private collection of individuals. Also, the oldest copies of collection of Hazrat Usman period are available and on display in various muslim countries. I want some information, in Imam's Quran collection, which hand written Quran is the oldest and what year.
Admin
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Post by Admin »

It would be intersting to know with certainty if this one was written after all copies (except Usman's) were burn or before.

I think there was one early copy found in Sana, Yemen which is now in Germany but I do not know the date.

Once I discuss this with Prof Arkoun asking him what would happen when older manuscripts of the Quran are discovered and differs from the Usmanic version? He told me this is already hapening....
agakhani_1
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Post by agakhani_1 »

Kbhai,

I am very excited to know that oldest Quran has just found in University of Birmingham, this Quran may be give us more clearer picture of the event of Gadir and may be Ali's Haqq on Imamat after the death of prophet!!1

There is a good chance also that British Library experts may telly this oldest Quran with modern Quran!! and find out the changes have been made in current Quran!!! :lol: This is a just starting wait little more till one Ismaili imam introduce the real Quran!!
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

agakhani wrote:Kbhai,

I am very excited to know that oldest Quran has just found in University of Birmingham, this Quran may be give us more clearer picture of the event of Gadir and may be Ali's Haqq on Imamat after the death of prophet!!1

There is a good chance also that British Library experts may telly this oldest Quran with modern Quran!! and find out the changes have been made in current Quran!!! :lol: This is a just starting wait little more till one Ismaili imam introduce the real Quran!!
Looks like missed this
"These portions must have been in a form that is very close to the form of the Koran read today, supporting the view that the text has undergone little or no alteration and that it can be dated to a point very close to the time it was believed to be revealed."
This is a just starting wait little more till one Ismaili imam introduce the real Quran!!
Can Imam recite so called "Othman Quran" verbatim ? Ask him to.
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Admin wrote: Once I discuss this with Prof Arkoun asking him what would happen when older manuscripts of the Quran are discovered and differs from the Usmanic version? He told me this is already hapening....
Did you ask him to give example? Ask him to come forward with the list.
Finding fault with Quran and Islam has become Industry.

Look at the difference.

Muslims are happy with the find.
Detractors are hoping to find alterations, 10 chapters, Account of Gadhir in Quran. Etc etc.
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

agakhani wrote:Kbhai,

There is a good chance also that British Library experts may telly this oldest Quran with modern Quran!! and find out the changes have been made in current Quran!!! :lol: This is a just starting wait little more till one Ismaili imam introduce the real Quran!!
There is report on CNN.com and also in today's of New York Times.

Couple of suras were stitched with some other edition.
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Post by Admin »

zznoor wrote:
Admin wrote: Once I discuss this with Prof Arkoun asking him what would happen when older manuscripts of the Quran are discovered and differs from the Usmanic version? He told me this is already hapening....
Did you ask him to give example?
The Quran is perfect. This is why the Prophet [PBUH] was not told by Allah to write it before his death and this is why Allah declared that he has perfected your religion at a time when Usmani Quran did not Exist. You can not question Allah's decision!
The whole creation is the Quran of Allah and any attempt to bring the Quran to a lesser level is an insult to Allah, something which will not be tolerated here. So the message is clear, stop degrading the Quran to the level of a composition or a compilation of humans...
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

Admin wrote: I think there was one early copy found in Sana, Yemen which is now in Germany but I do not know the date.
I posted the information about it awhile back at another thread:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... &start=120

The Earliest Copy of The Qur’an -Yemeni koran (Video)
Posted by admin on 6/18/09 • Categorized as Quran

You deleted the link.

http://DELETED-LINK/2009/06/18/the-earl ... ran-video/

There is also more information and illustration about the latest Quran at:

http://vmr.bham.ac.uk/Collections/Minga ... 1r/viewer/
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

Another article on the subject with video.

A Find in Britain: Quran Fragments Perhaps as Old as Islam

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/world ... d=45305309
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad:
I also saw the new on BBC.
Speculation aside.
1. how doe one get to see the images of manuscript?
2. What are British laws to access the scanned image of all pages material
?.
3 Any further report on it's contents visavis the widely published book?
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

This is from NYTimes report
Link provided by kmaherali above
The ancient pieces of manuscript, estimated to be at least 1,370 years old, offered a moment of unity, and insight, for the world’s 1.6 billion Muslims. Professor Thomas said it provided tantalizing clues to help settle a scholarly dispute about whether the holy text was actually written down at the time of the prophet, or compiled years later after being passed down by word of mouth. The discovery also offered a joyful moment for a faith that has struggled with internal divisions and external pressures.
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Admin wrote:
The Quran is perfect. This is why the Prophet [PBUH] was not told by Allah to write it before his death

Not correct. There is no evidence that Prophet asked not to dictate passages of Quran as they were revealed in phases, by Allah. Remember he had many scribes. See following Hadith
Hadith
Ibn Saeed Al-Khudry reported that the messenger of God had said,

(A) “Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it.”

(B) Again, in the book “Taq-yeed Al-Ilm”, Abu Saeed Al-Khudry said, ” I asked the Messenger of God a permission to write his hadiths, but he refused to give me a permission.”

The prophet (pbuh) forbade the writing of Hadith in the early stages of Islam, he feared that his sayings and the Quran would be mixed. Later on when the Quran was nearly completed he allowed for the Hadith to be written. The Full Hadith, what Sa’id Khudri narrated is below:

Abu Sa’id Khudri reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do not take down anything from me, and he who took down anything from me except the Qur’an, he should efface that AND narrate from me, for there is no harm in it and he who attributed any falsehood to me and Hammam said: I think he also said:” deliberately” & he should in fact find his abode in the Hell Fire. (Source: Sahih Muslim Book 42, Number 7147)
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Post by Admin »

Zznoor, We respect your belief in Hadith.

That is the difference between us Ismailis and the fanatics who excommunicate and kill whoever do not follow their definition and their interpretation of Islam.

However, we Muslims, are not bound by any Hadith.

If you believe in Hadiths, all of them without being selective, you would be following our Imam.

Shoving your selective hadiths down the throat to whoever listens is not going to advance the spiritual understanding of humanity.

The kind of Hadiths you have been quoting are the same kind that justified stealing Fadak from Bibi Fatima and to refuse to the Prophet himself (PBUH) on his death bed to be allowed to write his last wishes and his last Will.
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Admin wrote:
The Quran is perfect. This is why the Prophet [PBUH] was not told by Allah to write it before his death
So what is basis of your belief that Allah ordered prophet not to witebQuran?[/quote]
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Post by Admin »

zznoor wrote: So what is basis of your belief that Allah ordered prophet not to witebQuran?
There are 2 basis which are of foundational importance of Ismailism: Intellect and Faith:

1) When Allah said "I have perfected your religion", this Usmani compilation did not exist. Allah can not be disobeyed. We can not claim to be Muslim and all of a sudden believe that Allah made a mistake and religion was not completed. The Quran exists eternally in perfection even if there is no written copy. All of the universes and dimensions and whatever exist and will exist in the creation are the Ayats of the Quran, perpetually, eternally and still complete at the ever-present.

2) The other reason is our (Ismailis) Faith in the complete Obedience of the Prophet (PBUH) towards Allah. We do not believe that the Prophet would have disobeyed Allah and not compiled himself a copy if Allah would have instructed him or even suggested to do so. Our Prophet (PBUH) was the perfect one in complete submission to Allah.

There is already a discussion on Quran from the compilation point of view, there is no need to continue here..

Let us keep this section for the discoveries into early manuscripts of the Quran compilations.
agakhani_1
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Post by agakhani_1 »

Admin,
You just deleted my post addresses to ZZ, in which post I asked her to provide date and place where MSM told that he himself will introduce the complete Quran along with ten missing paras' please show me that farmans.period[/b]
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Post by Admin »

This thread is o discuss various new findings of ancient manuscript of Quran.

Please discuss all other reference to Quran in the other threads.

Admin
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

Admin wrote:There is already a discussion on Quran from the compilation point of view, there is no need to continue here..

Let us keep this section for the discoveries into early manuscripts of the Quran compilations.
I think the issues are related. We cannot separate compilation from the manuscript findings.

There is discussion about compilation in the other thread which is closed for additional postings.

Is Quran complete?

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 72&start=0
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Post by Admin »

Ok I have reopened the old thread (see above) about the compilation of the Quran.

So we can keep this one more on the discoveries of other manuscripts and early manuscripts of the Quran.

Maybe someone can post here the manuscript from Bankipore and the lesser known Surat al-Nurayan for example...

I do not read Arbic and do not have any old Quran Arabic manuscript but I would be interested to see one, especially very early version (like 630CE for example)
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad.

Any new info when it manuscript will there for public view atleast on the university site,etc.

I am very eager to to see the surah which has a flagship Ayat placed between ayats stating forbidden of eating swine meat.

The timings of it's find in a open n un corrupt civilized country is nothing less than a miracle.
It can be what an "Absolute Holy Book" and one 'perceived' to be as
a Holy book.
what is status of the ownership n safety of these manuscript.?
Has any country have bid/desired to have it for sentimental n prestige value attached to it.?
Can a ordinary citizen of UK ,if any can block the sale/transfer of that manuscript in a court of law ?
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Post by Admin »

80% of manuscripts sitting in European libraries have NOT been cataloged. be prepared for surprises in the coming years.....
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Admin wrote:
zznoor wrote:Surat Al-nurian is forgey

If we believe you Imamat also is a forgery and ismailism also is a forgery... so what are your interest in this Forum?

If you have a manuscript of Surah al Nurayan, post it here. If you have nothing of interest to this thread to say, please do not feel compelled to post.
In this age of net it is not difficult to find images

Try this

https://idlemindmuses.files.wordpress.c ... 07/i-7.jpg
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

You can see the entire soorah, along with a telegraphic picture of the Persian mus-haf at the following site:

*http://arabic.islamicweb.com/shia/nurain.htm

Remove * and paste it in your browser
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad:
I was just searching the nets for above find.I also landed of a 1370 old Quran manuscript
of holy book supposed to written by H.Ali.
which is said be written in classic n royal kufic scripts and not hijaz script.It is now in Germany.Only high level literates could write kufic then
the data will be out in October.
Can anybody shed more info on it?
Admin you mentioned a person by the name of Prof Aaqrun.
Can you give more info n who is he?
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Post by Admin »

Just google Professor Mohammed Arkoun
zznoor
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Post by zznoor »

Some Old Manuscripts of the Holy Qur'an

From Shia web site

*http://www.al-islam.org/al-tawhid/vol-8 ... lers-quran

remove * and paste it in your browser to read long but interesting article
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

Admin wrote:Just google Professor Mohammed Arkoun
Important fact about him which is pertinent to the discussion.

"In approaching his field, Arkoun propounded what he described as "applied Islamic studies". This was an eclectic methodology that drew on social sciences, particularly anthropology, philosophy, linguistics and other disciplines. On account of his training, his scholarship remained chiefly text-based, but he always insisted on placing the text within its historical context and treating it as a manifestation of the particular historical consciousness and moment that produced it. This approach proved particularly controversial in the Arab and Muslim worlds when he applied it to the Qur'an. His 1982 book Lectures du Coran laid him open to accusations of heresy."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/o ... n-obituary
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

Saudi authorities confiscate 70 thousand ‘fake’ Quran copies

Saudi authorities said they had foiled an attempt to distribute around 70,000 fake copies of the Quran during the season of Hajj, which kicks off Tuesday.

Authorities said all the forged copies were seized after stopping a vehicle that was carrying them.

The truck was reportedly stopped near Al Jamoom village, a gateway to the city of Makkah, where the main rituals of Hajj are performed.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/variety ... pies-.html
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Surat al Nurayan - Surat if the 2 Lights

Post by Admin »

AS RECEIVED

Shia distortions of the Quran: Surat Wilaya/Nurain...here is the arabic and gist and more evidence....enjoy !



"When Almighty Allah created Adam, the father of mankind, and breathed His spirit into him, Adam looked to the right hand side of the empyrean. There he saw five figures in the form of silhouettes engaged in prostration and genuflection. He asked:

"God, have you created any one from the dust before me?" God replied: "No." Adam said, "So who are these five figures which I see resembling my own shape and form?" God answered,

"These are five of your offspring. If it were not for them, I would have not created you. They are five people whose names are derived from My Own.

If it were not for them, I would have not created paradise or hell, the heavens and the earth, the skies and the lands, the angels, the human beings and the jinn.

I am "Mahmud" and this Muhammad. I am "Aala" and this is `Ali. I am "Fatir" and this is Fatimah, I am "Ihsan" and this is Hasan. I am "Muhsin" and this is Husayn.

By My Glory, whoever bears even an atom's weight of grudge against them will be cast into hell.

O Adam! They are My chosen ones. For them, I will save or cast others to perdition. If you want anything from me, you should resort to these five people."


The Holy Prophet (s) said: "We serve as the ark of salvation. Whoever holds fast to this ark will reach salvation and whoever deviates from it will be cast into perdition.

Whoever wants Allah to grant him something should resort to the `ahl al-bayt'."...evidence is in the SUNNI traditions....

"And WE have sent you a Manifest Light (with him) and and a Manifest Book...(to him)..." (Two Lights !)

Below a simple translation but please notice that I'm not a professional translator.
On the name of the all merciful God


1 You who are believers, believe in the prophet and the saint (patron, God-man) "which is Ali Bin Abi Taleb, Mohammed cousin" which we sent, they will guide you to the straight path.

2 A prophet and a saint "belong to" each other, and I am the all knowing..

3 Those who do (obey) God's covenant they "deserve" comforting paradise.

4 And those who if it was read to them our verses, they contradict it.

[Meaning: If somebody (unknown) were to read the verses (from the Qur'an) to them, they would reject it.]

5 They have a great (big) place in Hell, if they called in the day of judgement:


6 The messengers don't leave them "without" the truth, and God "will not allow them"
to win except for a short time.

7 Praise your lord "and" thank "him", and Ali "Ali Bin Abi Taleb, Mohammed's cousin" is "one" from the witnesses.

Source: "ALThWRh AL'YARANYh FY MYzAN AL'sLAM"


"O you who believe, believe in the Two lights.

He has revealed them unto you, warning you against the torture of the Great Day -- Two lights emanating from one another, for I am the All-Hearing and the All-Knowing.

Truly those who fulfill Allah's pledge and his Apostle's verses shall be rewarded with Paradise.

Those who disbelieve by breaking their covenant and what they have pledged to do before the Apostle shall be thrown into hell, for they did injustice to themselves and disobeyed the supporter of the Apostle.

Therefore, they shall be caused to drink from the Hamim River in hell.

Truly Allah is the light of heaven and the earth as He wills, and he has chosen his angels and apostles and made believers of those whom he created.

All do whatever he wills. There is no god but him -- the Merciful and the Compassionate.
Those who came before them cheated their apostles, and so I have stricken them with my cunningness vehemently and painfully.

O Apostle! Preach my admonition, for they shall know.


Those who fulfill their pledge to you are likened to me to be rewarded by Paradise.
Truly Ali is one of the pious. We have sent Moses and Aaron, being appointed his successor, yet they disobeyed Aaron.


Be of good patience! They will become old. We have given you judgment, just as we did to other apostles before you. We have appointed a guardian to you from them, that they might return.

Truly Ali is devout, lying prostrate at night, warning as regards the Last Day, and hoping for the mercy of his Lord.

Say: "Should those who act unjustly be treated equally, while they know my torture?"
(Mohammad Azat Darwaza, Al-Qur'an al-Majid, page 60 and
Mohammed Ahmed Maal Allah, Al Shi3a wa T7reef Al Quran).
Documented also in

Theodor Nöldeke: Geschichte des Qorans
Zweite Auflage, völlig umgearbeitet von Friedrich Schwally
Zweiter Teil: Die Sammlung des Qorans, Leipzig
(Dieterich'sche Verlagsbuchhandlung) 1919, Seiten 102-103

------------------

SURAH AL-WALAYA AND AN-NURAYN: ORIENTALISTS' VIEW:

The Surah an-Nurain was published in Dabistan-i Madhahib. In 1842 and 1843 it was review in the references [3] and [4].

The passages of Sura al-Walayah and Sura an-Nurain were discovered in a manuscript of Qur'an in Bankipore, India, in June 1912. The translation of the Sura was published by St. Clare Tisdall in the journal "The Moslem World" in 1913. The manuscript is said to be some 200-300 years old, at least.

And talking about the nature of these two surahs, St. Clare Tisdall says:

"We notice also that it is highly to the credit of the
Shi'ah community in general. Although they think that they are staking their eternal happiness on the truth of their contention that 'Ali and his family are the true and Divinely commissioned inheritors of Mohammad's spiritual rights, so far as these could be handed down to others, yet they have never permitted a single one of these suras to become incorporated into their copies of the Koran." [[5], pp. 229-230]

And he went on to say:

"So, far as we know, the manuscript which we are now concerned may also contain Alterations and Additions. To get them
generally accepted, even by Shi'ites, but it proved impossible.


The attempt by Sunnites to make the shias adopt them proved its hopelessness which must have been evident " [[5], pp. 230]

Further criticisms were added by Joseph Eliash concerning the text from Bankipore and Dabistan-i- Madhahib. He says:

"Concerning the Bankipore text, its only connection with the Imami Shi'a is the claim that the manuscript was brought from a Nawwab in Lucknow which was a centre of Imami learning in India.

This alone does not constitute it into an authoritative Qur'an for the Imami Shi'a." [[6], pp. 19]
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