QUL

Discussion on doctrinal issues
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shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:You are missing my point. I agree that the understanding that is implanted at preschool level is not same at higher levels. My question is about preschool religious training of 4/5 years. Why Imam started this preschool curriculum? and to teach them about ALLAH, the creator of Universe? Imam wants to put in kids mind and to print name of ALLAH on the clean sheet of their brain and soul, so that when they grow up should not go stray.
Of course the first concept to know is that of Allah and then Imamat and later on the mazhar, hujjat etc. It just does not end there, that the beginning.

AWWAL ZIKAR ALLAH KA JO HAI RAHIM WA RAHMAN (kalam e Mowla)

ALLAH comes first, then come the pious entities followed by material world.

ALLAH ALLAH SUBHAN JINEY KIA
ILAH LA DIYA KARAR REY....
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Post by Admin »

shivaathervedi wrote:

AWWAL ZIKAR ALLAH KA JO HAI RAHIM WA RAHMAN (kalam e Mowla)

ALLAH comes first, then come the pious entities followed by material world.

ALLAH ALLAH SUBHAN JINEY KIA
ILAH LA DIYA KARAR REY....
there is no problem with whatever name you take first.

However this sentence was added to Kalame Mowla in the same way some add the formula Bismillah hir Rahmir Rahim to each Surat of the Quran and there is a huge debate on whether this formula is part of the Quran or not part of it.

All the ancient manuscripts of Kalame Mowla are in prose, not in verse and not divided in chapters subject wise. This is not the subject of this thread so I will not say more but there is a Thread on Kalame Mowla which you can refer to for more info as you know about this threas in which you have posted in the past.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 26&start=0
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:

AWWAL ZIKAR ALLAH KA JO HAI RAHIM WA RAHMAN (kalam e Mowla)

ALLAH comes first, then come the pious entities followed by material world.

ALLAH ALLAH SUBHAN JINEY KIA
ILAH LA DIYA KARAR REY....
there is no problem with whatever name you take first.

However this sentence was added to Kalame Mowla in the same way some add the formula Bismillah hir Rahmir Rahim to each Surat of the Quran and there is a huge debate on whether this formula is part of the Quran or not part of it.

All the ancient manuscripts of Kalame Mowla are in prose, not in verse and not divided in chapters subject wise. This is not the subject of this thread so I will not say more but there is a Thread on Kalame Mowla which you can refer to for more info as you know about this threas in which you have posted in the past.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 26&start=0

Saying BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM started in beginning of each Surah of Quran was ordered by Prophet Muhammad.
Du'a is given by Imam. In our Du'a there are 6 parts, each starting with BISMILLAHIR RAMANIR RAHIM. Do you acknowledge this 'FORMULA' (according to you)?
Can you tell me who converted PROSE of Kalam e Mowla in POETRY?
Please check the very first edition of Kalam e Mowla printed by Ismailia Association Pakistan in 50's, starting with;
AWWAL ZIKAR ALLAH KA JO HAI RAHIM WA RAMAN.
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Post by Admin »

Please discuss Kalame Mowla in the appropriate thread. if you do not understand the meaning of this sentense please ask someone who knows English. Thank you.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad.
We have a trinity words for zikr that ALI,MOHAMMED AND ALLAH.if they have equal wieghtage so they are same.
We seek grace,forgiveness,and blessings from the LIVING not the anyone dead or unseen and unknown.
So the central name is YA ALI.
Allah word is penultimate name same as 349 names of Gods as said and introduced by many prophets.
The word Allah in absolute truth is Ali+lah =Allah,or 1+0=1.
For me if I say the word Allah ,it by default by nostrils and mind intake ALI and 'KICK OUT' lah from that word.Same is for everyone ,but realization is not there.
As in nature we breathe only oxygen and not nitrogen, carbons,me then gas ,but in general we breathe Air ( Allah)
simple example .if we mail three envolepes with three names of trinity on each separately, the final destination is the SAME.
That is tariqat.but to find which has ability to read and response that search and final answer is HAQIQAT.one is gone and dead,other cannot be seen, assumed or even vusulized.in Quran ,in different ayats God has given description of his face,hands,ears,speech,he walked.sitting on throne ,collating that and reaching the truth is Haqiqat.
a simple question.
If a child ask his father is he drinking water or H2O which he just learned in school?
What would his father reply be?
So a poem starting with the word Allah at primary is a must and important to validate the holy book and prophet and Imams.let the child grow that water in truth is H2O.
Allah is nothing but a brand,covered and signature name of ALI used by him in the final book.
Ali also different names of his to earlier prophets.
No rocket science in this.
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad.
We have a trinity words for zikr that ALI,MOHAMMED AND ALLAH.if they have equal wieghtage so they are same.
We seek grace,forgiveness,and blessings from the LIVING not the anyone dead or unseen and unknown.
So the central name is YA ALI.
Allah word is penultimate name same as 349 names of Gods as said and introduced by many prophets.
The word Allah in absolute truth is Ali+lah =Allah,or 1+0=1.
For me if I say the word Allah ,it by default by nostrils and mind intake ALI and 'KICK OUT' lah from that word.Same is for everyone ,but realization is not there.
As in nature we breathe only oxygen and not nitrogen, carbons,me then gas ,but in general we breathe Air ( Allah)
simple example .if we mail three envolepes with three names of trinity on each separately, the final destination is the SAME.
That is tariqat.but to find which has ability to read and response that search and final answer is HAQIQAT.one is gone and dead,other cannot be seen, assumed or even vusulized.in Quran ,in different ayats God has given description of his face,hands,ears,speech,he walked.sitting on throne ,collating that and reaching the truth is Haqiqat.
a simple question.
If a child ask his father is he drinking water or H2O which he just learned in school?
What would his father reply be?
So a poem starting with the word Allah at primary is a must and important to validate the holy book and prophet and Imams.let the child grow that water in truth is H2O.
Allah is nothing but a brand,covered and signature name of ALI used by him in the final book.
Ali also different names of his to earlier prophets.
No rocket science in this.

Why you keep posting same post in different threads. Nothing new!! same analogies; water, H2O, 349 names, brand name, 1+0, Ali+Lah, dead of past and so on. Let me counter your analogies.

In modern maths 1+0 is equal to 10.
There are not just 349 names of God, but in different languages these are more than 100x1000s even more.
You keep writing Ali+Lah without paying attention to formation of word. Before Prophet Muhammad, the name of main idol was Al-ilah. What you did moved the letter "i" to left and added with Al making it Ali+lah. You are not realizing that you are equating Al-ilah = to Ali-lah. You are equating Ali with idol.
What ever elements present in universe are compounded in human body, it is not just H2O, but these are carbon, sulphur, helium, phosphorus, gold, silver, count 107 plus (may be more).
Ismailis believe in brand name of Allah and not in generic names. Brand is original and generics are less effective with side effects.
You wrote," We seek blessings from living and not the dead, unseen and unknown." Na'uzubillah, if you think God is dead and Prophet too means you are rejecting the 3rd entity too. If you disappear 2, the 3rd will automatically disappear because you are equating zikr of 3 names with different entities.
You admitted in your above post," The word Allah is absolute Truth." It shows Allah is settled permanently in your sub conscious.
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali madad:
know that CAN ONLY BE 1+0 = 1 and not 10.
Maybe 1 & 0 can be placed in order 10 or 01.
Generic name of medicine is the orgninal chemical composition name ( it never changes) but brand names are different used by different companies/ prices
Number names of
God has been stated in a farman of Jaffer Sadiq.
Allah is covered true name( like shell companies) as it hold the name,word,& ENTITY of Ali in it.
there is no need of micro percentage composition of a substance only few is needed to make a point.
Is is common sense if a child is told to choose the name which it can maximum times in a paper.
As all papers each with different names reach ONLY one on the top and same destination.( to get maximum marks)
The easiest name to write would be ALI ,then Allah and later Mohammed.
Mohammed is path ,and ALI is the destination.
The word Allah get sublimates into Ali as one know the haqiqat.
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Post by shivaathervedi »

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali madad:
know that CAN ONLY BE 1+0 = 1 and not 10.
Maybe 1 & 0 can be placed in order 10 or 01.
Generic name of medicine is the orgninal chemical composition name ( it never changes) but brand names are different used by different companies/ prices
Number names of
God has been stated in a farman of Jaffer Sadiq.
Allah is covered true name( like shell companies) as it hold the name,word,& ENTITY of Ali in it.
there is no need of micro percentage composition of a substance only few is needed to make a point.
Is is common sense if a child is told to choose the name which it can maximum times in a paper.
As all papers each with different names reach ONLY one on the top and same destination.( to get maximum marks)
The easiest name to write would be ALI ,then Allah and later Mohammed.
Mohammed is path ,and ALI is the destination.
The word Allah get sublimates into Ali as one know the haqiqat.

God can not be confined in numbers. God is not countable or accountable. He is beyond numbers.
When BRAND is easily accessible and approachable why to look for cheap GENERICS. Usually Generic is residue of Brand.
The paper containing different names to choose should have one REAL name to adopt.
Did Imam Ja'far Sadiq mentioned in any of his Farman that Ali is Allah. Please give proof (name of book).
AL ALI is the attribute name of Allah. First name of Allah then comes His attribute.
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Post by shivaathervedi »

I have noticed:

In Mumbai, Karachi,and in interior Sindh I have seen many handwritten manuscripts in Khojki starting with sentence " ALLAH TOU AAHAAR" FOLLOWED BY BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM. I wander why writers or compilers did not started with ALI TOU AAHAAR!? AAHAAR means FAITH, DEPENDENCE, PROVISION, FOOD, TAWWAKUL.
The 2 pages posted by Admin in BOOKS thread one from the year 1804 and other 1926 also starts with ALLAH TOU AAHAAR FOLLOWED BY BISMILLAH.
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Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali Madad:
In any expression for Synopsys it has come in order of Allah,Mohammed, ALI.
This was also wrote by me in very early posting, still valid for future.
In a search of truth.
name n word Ali+lah= Allah is first station,the search to find that entity.then the path to truth is via Mohammed & ALI.
At the destination one find it is ALI ,as the word sublimates to ALI ( Ali- lah)= Ali.
The entity ALI is solid residual of n
In that word and Laa mean nothing ( NULL & VOID ).
Quran and name Allah is search ( noble puzzle).
An ignorant and even secular educated may not get Amy of Baatin ( deep understanding).
As for Pir ,write the primary and most popular brand of ALLAH to begin boarding of then inspirer to board the ship of truth.
One CANNOT land on destination unless it takes off or leaves the first or originating station.
Knowing just Zahir and not Baatin and Noorani facet of Our faith is 33.3% knowledge and faith level of that person.May ALI bless the low faith level persons.( IMAAN KI MAZBOOTI).
A doctor does not cling nursery poem of fable and poem and say and jack & Jill or ringa ringa roses to teach medicine to student or performing surgery.
That doctor may have surely started with those poem 20-40 years back in his/her life.
only a lunatic will tel the doctor. to repeat again & again,A doctor knows very well what to remember and not remember say at his age and education level.
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Post by Admin »

shivaathervedi wrote:I have noticed:

In Mumbai, Karachi,and in interior Sindh I have seen many handwritten manuscripts in Khojki starting with sentence " ALLAH TOU AAHAAR" FOLLOWED BY BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM. I wander why writers or compilers did not started with ALI TOU AAHAAR!? AAHAAR means FAITH, DEPENDENCE, PROVISION, FOOD, TAWWAKUL.
The 2 pages posted by Admin in BOOKS thread one from the year 1804 and other 1926 also starts with ALLAH TOU AAHAAR FOLLOWED BY BISMILLAH.


The standard Ismaili Salutation is Ya Ali Madad. Ismailis knows about that. Ismailis do not make a difference on this matters. Non Ismailis do.
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:I have noticed:

In Mumbai, Karachi,and in interior Sindh I have seen many handwritten manuscripts in Khojki starting with sentence " ALLAH TOU AAHAAR" FOLLOWED BY BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM. I wander why writers or compilers did not started with ALI TOU AAHAAR!? AAHAAR means FAITH, DEPENDENCE, PROVISION, FOOD, TAWWAKUL.
The 2 pages posted by Admin in BOOKS thread one from the year 1804 and other 1926 also starts with ALLAH TOU AAHAAR FOLLOWED BY BISMILLAH.


The standard Ismaili Salutation is Ya Ali Madad. Ismailis knows about that. Ismailis do not make a difference on this matters. Non Ismailis do.

So far I have quoted and debated from Ismaili literature printed and published by Ismaili institutions. You posted 200+ years old page of a manuscript in Books thread, those who know Khojki can read themselves. Still in interior Sindh, I have heard Ismailis saying Allah Aahaar and Allah tohaar. I do not mind and will never mind for those who say Ya Ali Madad.
I suggest to Khoja Ismailis they should read the book named "AL ALI SULTANAN NASIRA" published in Urdu available at Shia stores in Karachi and other places. The book is also available in ITREB liberary Karachi. Readers will find answers, Why Shia salutation is Ya Ali Madad.
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

The ta'weel of the Hand Of Allah is the Divine power, authority, control. The most comprehensive ta'weel of the Hand of Allah is the Prophet Muhammad and the pure Imam. Therefore, all the ta'weels of the Hand of Allah are related to these holy personalities, since to do Ba'yat ( oath of allegiance ) on their blessed hand.
The Guarded Tablet, Imam e Mubin, the Book are same Reality. Thus all things are gathered in one place and that is the place of spirituality which is Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali.
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Post by shivaathervedi »

Some ayats with QUL and YAS'ALUNAK

The fools among the people will say; What has turned them from Qiblah to which they were used? Qul (say) East and West belong to Allah. He guides whom He will to sirat e Mustaqeem (straight path).
Surah Al Baqarah ayat # 142

They are asking you (YAS'ALUNAK) concerning wine and gambling? QUL (say) in them is great sin and little profit for people. BUT the sin is greater than the profit.
Surah Al Baqarah ayat # 219

QUL (say) Ya Allah, Lord of power, You give sovereignty to whom you are pleased, and strip the sovereignty from whom You are not pleased. You give honor whom You are pleased and bring them low (down) whom You are nor pleased. All good is in Your hand. Indeed You have power over all things.
Surah Aal e Imran ayat # 26.

QUL (say) if you do love Allah follow me and Allah will love you and forgive your sins. For Allah is forgiving and most merciful.
Surah Aal e Imran ayat # 31

QUL (say) Allah spoke the truth. Follow the Din e Hanif of Ibrahim inclining towards the truth and he was not from the pagans.
The first house established for mankind was that at BAKKA ( Mecca). Full of blessings and of guidance for (all) worlds.
Surah Aal e Imran ayat #s 95 and 96

QUL (say) that evil things (khabis) and good things (tayyib) are not equal. The abundance of the bad may impress you but you fear Allah, who you have understanding, so that you may prosper.
Surah Al Maa'idah ayat # 100

QUL (say) what thing is most weighty in evidence? QUL (say) Allah is witness between me and you. This Quran has been revealed to me by inspiration so that I warn you and all of whom it reaches. Can you possibly bear witness that besides Allah there is another God? QUL (say) no I can not bear witness, but QUL (say) in truth He is the one God.
Surah Al An'aam ayat # 19

Do not estimate ( judge) Allah. Do they make when they say, nothing Allah had send down to man (any revelations). QUL (say) who then sent down the book which Moses brought? A light (Noor) and guidance to men.But you make it into sheets for show, while you conceal much (of contents) there in. Were you taught that which you or your fathers knew. QUL (say) Allah, then leave them to plunge to in vain and trifling.
Surah Al An'aam ayat # 91

QUL (say) indeed my prayer, and my sacrifice, and my life, and my death are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the worlds.
He has no partner.This what I am commanded and I am THE FIRST MUSLIM.
Surah Al An'aam ayat #s 162-163.

QUL (SAY) my RUBB has commanded justice, and that you you set yourselves (to Him) every time and place of prayer and call upon Him, making your devotion sincere as in His sight such as He created you in the beginning and so you have to return back.
Surah Al A'raaf ayat # 29.

QUL (say) the things which my Lord has indeed forbidden are; shameful deeds whether open or secret, sins and trespasses against truth or reason, assigning of partners to Allah, for which He has given no authority, and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge.
Surah Al A'raaf ayat # 33

They are asking you (YAS'ALUNAK) about the (final) HOUR, when will be its appointed time? QUL (say) the knowledge thereof is with my RUBB. None but He can reveal as to when it will occur.
Surah Al A'raaf ayat # 187
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Post by shivaathervedi »

Surah Al A'raaf (CHAPTER- 7)

And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, My Lord, show me [Yourself] that I may look at You. [ Allah ] said, You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me. But when his Lord showed TAJALI to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.
7:143



[ Allah ] said, O Moses, I have chosen you over the people with My messages and My words [to you]. So take what I have given you and be among the grateful.
7:144



Say, Who has forbidden the adornment of Allah which He has produced for His servants and the good [lawful] things of provision? Say, They are for those who believe during the worldly life [but] exclusively for them on the Day of Resurrection. Thus do We detail the verses for a people who know.
7:32




Say, My Lord has only forbidden immoralities - what is apparent of them and what is concealed - and sin, and oppression without right, and that you associate with Allah that for which He has not sent down authority, and that you say about Allah that which you do not know.
7:33


Say, [O Muhammad], My Lord has ordered justice and that you maintain yourselves [in worship of Him] at every place [or time] of prostration, and invoke Him, sincere to Him in religion. Just as He originated you, you will return.
7:29


They said, Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves, and if You do not forgive us and have mercy upon us, we will surely be among the losers.
7:23
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Post by Admin »

shivaathervedi wrote:"AL ALI SULTANAN NASIRA" published in Urdu available at Shia stores in Karachi and other places. The book is also available in ITREB liberary Karachi. Readers will find answers, Why Shia salutation is Ya Ali Madad.
There are also some branches of Shias whose salutation is "Hay Zinda"
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Post by shivaathervedi »

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:"AL ALI SULTANAN NASIRA" published in Urdu available at Shia stores in Karachi and other places. The book is also available in ITREB liberary Karachi. Readers will find answers, Why Shia salutation is Ya Ali Madad.
There are also some branches of Shias whose salutation is "Hay Zinda"
Please name the sects.
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Post by Admin »

The Gupti Ismailis of Khambat, the Imam Shahis and the Athias of Gujrat.
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Post by shivaathervedi »

Admin wrote:The Gupti Ismailis of Khambat, the Imam Shahis and the Athias of Gujrat.

Not a new information. MSMS in his tenure asked gupti jamaits to come out of
closet (gupt) and practice Ismailism openly, they were asked to adopt Muslim names. Alwaiz Abu Ali's grandpa and family was one of them. Imam Shahi's is a splinter group of Ismails, during your recent visit you should have noticed many Imam Shahis have converted to Hinduism, and same is with Athiases. Please quote any particular Shia sect, thanks.
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Post by Admin »

You are mistaken. The instruction for the Gupti Jamat was limited to Punjabi Guptis only. You question has been reply in regards to who is still using Hai Zinda. There will not be any another answer, please read posts properly and do not waste people time when you have very limited knowledge of the subject.
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Post by shivaathervedi »

QUL KUNU HIJARATAN AUO HADIDA. (17:50)
Say you be stones or Iron.
MSMS said," PATHAR MA BHI RUH CHHEY", (stone has soul also).
A poet said:
SUN NEY KI MOHLAT MILEY TOU AAWAZ HAI PATHARU(N) MEY
DEWAAR O DAR SE UTTAR KAR PARCHHAIYA(N) BOLTI HAI(N)

In reality soul and matter are one. Just as ice and water appear to be two different things in their external forms, yet water turns into ice by freezing and ice turns into water by melting. Thus matter is frozen soul, and soul is dissolved matter. In surah Hadeed (57:25), Allah says," WA ANZALNAL HADEED" and we sent down IRON. One just think if Allah has sent big chunks of iron, humanity, animals and plants should have been destroyed. Thus it means Allah sent down the iron in form of soul which turned into matter.
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Post by shivaathervedi »

AND SAY (QUL) PRAISE BE TO ALLAH WHO BEGETS NO SON AND HAS NO PARTNER IN HIS SOVEREIGNTY. HE NEEDS NOT PROTECTION ( OF ANY ONE) FROM HUMILIATION. AND MAGNIFY HIM FOR HIS GREATNESS AND GLORY.
SURAH AL ISRA' 17:111
In this Ayat Quran rejects the taunting statements made by Jews and Christians at time of Prophet Muhammad that God has a son, or He has a partner, or He needs help and protection. Quran rejects all such kind of notions and declared that ALLAH is AHAD and SAMAD. He has no son or family. Quran says," LAISA KA MISLIHI SHAI'AN WA HUWAS SAMEEI'UL BASEER" 42:11
There is no comparison of Him ( in universe) and He is the one who hears and sees (all).
To understand Allah's attributes, he/she should clear mind from superstitions. We must realize that He is AHAD and UNIQUE in this universe. His greatness and glory are above anything we can conceive. PRAISE BE TO ALLAH.
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Post by shivaathervedi »

AND THEY ARE ASKING YOU CONCERNING DHUL QARNAIN. QUL (SAY) I SHALL NARRATE TO YOU SOMETHING ABOUT HIM. INDEED WE ESTABLISHED HIS POWER ON EARTH, AND GAVE HIM THE WAYS AND MEANS TO ALL ENDS. 18:83-84.
Who was Dhul Qarnain? What was his real name? In what age, and where did he live? There are vatious stories about him in Quran, Hadith, old Testament, and other historical books. Popular opinion identifies Dhul Qarnain with Alexander the Great. An alternative suggestion is an ancient Persian King Darius, or a prehistoric Himyarite King from Yemen.
According to Shia traditions, Mowla Murtaza Ali said," I AM DHUL QARNAIN WHO IS MENTIONED IN PREVIOUS REVEALED BOOKS". (Kaukab Durri, page # 197).
QARN means horn, curly hair, age, epoch, century. Dhul Qarnain literally means, "the two horned one", the King with two horns. No history mentions that Mowela Ali physically had horns. According to Arabic grammar QARNAIN is Tasniyyah used for two things. In my opinion Qarn means age or epoch is understandable, therefore Dul Qarnain means King of two different ages (or worlds i.e. spiritual world and material world). In Du'a, we recite," SAHEB ZAMAAN WAL 'ASR " means master of zamaan i.e. EARTHLY TIME and 'asr means age and that represents COSMOLOGICAL TIME, it is because as Quran says," Indeed we established his power on earth and gave him the ways and means to all ends".18:84.
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Post by shivaathervedi »

QUL (SAY) WHAT THING IS OF MOST WEIGHT IN TESTIMONY. QUL (SAY) ALLAH IS WITNESS BETWEEN YOU AND ME. AND THIS QURAN HAS BEEN REVEALED TO ME BY INSPIRATION (WAHI), THAT I MAY WARN YOU AND TO ALL WHOM IT REACHES. DO YOU BEAR WITNESS THAT THERE ARE GODS BESIDE ALLAH? QUL (SAY) I BEAR NO SUCH WITNESS. QUL (SAY) INDEED HE IS ONLY ONE (WAHID) GOD. AND TRUELY I AM INNOCENT OF THAT WHICH YOU ASSOCIATE (WITH HIM). 6:19

After each Du'a prayer we recite KALIMA PAAK:
I bear witness, there is no diety except Allah.
And I bear witness, Muhammad (pbuh) is Prophet of Allah.
And I bear witness, the commander of faithfuls Ali is from Allah.

I quote from the first article of preamble of our Ismaili constitution by Hazar Imam." The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm Shahadah,' La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah, the Tawhid there in and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal".

Imam never teaches or preaches beyond Ta'limaat of Quran, and he is the one who interprets Quran for his followers.
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote: Imam never teaches or preaches beyond Ta'limaat of Quran, and he is the one who interprets Quran for his followers.
That is the basic level of understanding. At a deeper level the Imam himself is the Qur'an.

e sabhaagaa aape shaah mulaa aape shaah kaazee
aape ved kuraan sabhaagaa.............................8

O fortunate one, the Imam himself is the scholar, He himself is the judge, He himself is the ved (holy scriptures) and the Qur'aan, fortunate one.

Shah as in Shah Karim

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22850
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: Imam never teaches or preaches beyond Ta'limaat of Quran, and he is the one who interprets Quran for his followers.
That is the basic level of understanding. At a deeper level the Imam himself is the Qur'an.

e sabhaagaa aape shaah mulaa aape shaah kaazee
aape ved kuraan sabhaagaa.............................8

O fortunate one, the Imam himself is the scholar, He himself is the judge, He himself is the ved (holy scriptures) and the Qur'aan, fortunate one.

Shah as in Shah Karim

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22850

There are 4 paragraphs in my post dated 8/27/17. You selected last paragraph for discussion means you accepted first three paragraphs. Neither you nor Admin or any Ismaili can deny the ayat of Quran, Kalima Paak or Preamble.
It is true Prophet Muhammad said about Mowla Ali," Ali is with Quran and Quran is with Ali". These both entities are not separable till dooms day. Also Mowla Ali said," ANA TARJUMANUL QURAN".
Regarding your quotation of Sabagha Ginan, you have translated the couplet:
O fortunate the Imam himself is the scholar, he himself is judge, he himself is ved and the Quran.

Now let me show the contradiction of your translation from Bhuj Nirinjin:


Part 23:

mil(walee) mullaa(n) or kaazee aave
likh fatavaa muftee le jaave(lakh fatwa or marafat ponchaave).....1

The preachers and mullahs gather and come to the enlightened person. They prescribe a religious order(of sanction) against the person and take it to the executioner (mufti).

Second version: The preachers(mullas), religious leaders(wallis) and judges(kaazees) come to visit the enlightened person. They prescribe useless ways of attaining God without marifat(gnosis).

In Sabagha Ginan according to your translation Imam is a good Mulla and a good Qazi and in your translation of Bhuj Nirinjin, Imam becomes a trouble maker or a bad Mulla and a bad Qazi!!
At the time of Pir Shams Imam's name was not Shah Karim, historical mistake.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote: In Sabagha Ginan according to your translation Imam is a good Mulla and a good Qazi and in your translation of Bhuj Nirinjin, Imam becomes a trouble maker or a bad Mulla and a bad Qazi!!
At the time of Pir Shams Imam's name was not Shah Karim, historical mistake.
All Mullas are not at the same time the Qur'an as the Imam. There is a huge difference between the Mulla Imam and any other Mulla.

The point about mentioning Shah Karim was that the Shah in the Ginan verse refers to the Imam. It does not matter whether it is Shah Qasim Shah or Shah Sultan Muhammad Shah.
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: In Sabagha Ginan according to your translation Imam is a good Mulla and a good Qazi and in your translation of Bhuj Nirinjin, Imam becomes a trouble maker or a bad Mulla and a bad Qazi!!
At the time of Pir Shams Imam's name was not Shah Karim, historical mistake.
All Mullas are not at the same time the Qur'an as the Imam. There is a huge difference between the Mulla Imam and any other Mulla.

The point about mentioning Shah Karim was that the Shah in the Ginan verse refers to the Imam. It does not matter whether it is Shah Qasim Shah or Shah Sultan Muhammad Shah.

Since when Imam become mulla? or a good mulla/Imam and bad mulla/Imam?
On this forum genrally mullas are cursed.
In Ginans the word Shah is not used for Har or Hari, neither they are used together. The sabagha Ginan you quote starts as:
EY SABAGHA HAR PUJH NIT NIRVAAN...
In my opinion the word shah was induced by compilers. In various Ginans the words AAPEY MULLA AAPEY QAZI - AAPEY VED AAPEY QURAN are used to indicate concept of WAHDATAL WUJUD.
Historically for Mowla Ali we do not use the phrase Mowla Ali Shah or Murtaza Ali Shah.
kmaherali
Posts: 25106
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote: Since when Imam become mulla? or a good mulla/Imam and bad mulla/Imam?
On this forum genrally mullas are cursed.

Historically for Mowla Ali we do not use the phrase Mowla Ali Shah or Murtaza Ali Shah.
The Imamat is not confined to any particular role. He can assume any role appropriate to the context. Hence he can be a caliph, scholar, mulla, qazi, horse-breeder, businessman, philanthropist etc

There is no need to go back to history. It is sufficient that the present and living Imam is called by the title of Shah.
shivaathervedi
Posts: 1108
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 10:39 pm

Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: Since when Imam become mulla? or a good mulla/Imam and bad mulla/Imam?
On this forum genrally mullas are cursed.

Historically for Mowla Ali we do not use the phrase Mowla Ali Shah or Murtaza Ali Shah.
The Imamat is not confined to any particular role. He can assume any role appropriate to the context. Hence he can be a caliph, scholar, mulla, qazi, horse-breeder, businessman, philanthropist etc

There is no need to go back to history. It is sufficient that the present and living Imam is called by the title of Shah.
The discussion is about bad mulla/Imam or a good mulla/Imam. It is like good Taliban and bad Taliban.
Let me ask you, what are the real duties/functions of Imam? Not only Imam as you wrote but many people claimed or can claim to be caliph. scholar, horse breeders or philanthropists or any other human faculty.
You wrote," There is no need to to go back to history". Your statement shows you do not believe in history, or history is worthless or we should forget about our ancestors Pirs and Imams. So present Imam is Shah but title of Mowla Ali was not Shah?
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