Second Article of Preamble of Ismaili Constitution.

Discussion on doctrinal issues
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote: When doctrine is same it should be applicable to all Ismailis. You wrote;

"It exhorts the Oneness of Divine Light in the universe, but has three relations: the relation to God, the Prophet and the Imam of the age".

The three relations as you mentioned are with Allah, Prophet Muhammad, and Imam of the time. This is the main doctrine which I have been insisting is common in all Ismailis, which is mentioned in 2nd part of Du'a, and which has been faith of our forefathers.
The doctrine may be one but some aspects are highlighted in one tradition more than others. The traditions that have evolved around a doctrine can vary. One segment of the Jamat is more comfortable with one historical tradition as opposed to another.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote: This thread is about second article of Preamble and not about the faith of forefathers as you mentioned. You drifted from the thread and induced faith of forefathers.
For centuries back Hindu converts were taking name of Hari. Is original Du'a prescribed by Pir Sadardin available today any where? As it is said; Dhude ka dhude pani ka pani ho jai.
What is the second article about if not doctrine which defines faith?
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

Admin wrote:I just wish you would learn to read what people write and not imagine things. You have not shown where the Prophet said he is the Bearer of the Noor. And do you intend to come back to the thread or do you want to continue discussing here subjects that are already having their own thread.
Sorry, Prophet did not said in French for you:
JE SUIS PORTEUR DE NOOR.

Prophet did said in Arabic:
ANA MIN NOORULLAH
AND
ANA WA ALIYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID

What this mean to you, these Hadiths are from Ismaili literature.

Have peaceful Happy Deedar. Om Shanti Om.
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: This thread is about second article of Preamble and not about the faith of forefathers as you mentioned. You drifted from the thread and induced faith of forefathers.
For centuries back Hindu converts were taking name of Hari. Is original Du'a prescribed by Pir Sadardin available today any where? As it is said; Dhude ka dhude pani ka pani ho jai.
What is the second article about if not doctrine which defines faith?
Why to drag forefathers in this discussion of Preamble, as faith of Ismaili forefathers remained the same through out our history i.e imaan on Allah, Rasul, and Imam.
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: When doctrine is same it should be applicable to all Ismailis. You wrote;

"It exhorts the Oneness of Divine Light in the universe, but has three relations: the relation to God, the Prophet and the Imam of the age".

The three relations as you mentioned are with Allah, Prophet Muhammad, and Imam of the time. This is the main doctrine which I have been insisting is common in all Ismailis, which is mentioned in 2nd part of Du'a, and which has been faith of our forefathers.
The doctrine may be one but some aspects are highlighted in one tradition more than others. The traditions that have evolved around a doctrine can vary. One segment of the Jamat is more comfortable with one historical tradition as opposed to another.
The basic doctrine is same for all Ismailis. Faith on Allah, Rasul, and Imam.
Now one can say in plain words, other can say in Qir'at, or others may say loudly. Message of Preamble is plain and simple, and in my opinion has nothing to do with various traditions.
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: 1. Enlighten me and jamaits if there are any batini secrets involve in Preamble. Preamble mentions the basic tenets of Islam and Ismailism. There is no hidden agaenda in it given by Imam.
I hope the Farman below helps to understand the meaning of an esoteric tradition.

"Do not forget that our branch of Islam is an esoteric branch of Islam. Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone. It is there to those who are part of our Jamat."
(Bombay, Wednesday, November 22, 1967)

Hence what ever is written/published is meant for the public consumption. The meaning and wisdom is there for the Jamat only.
shivaathervedi wrote: 2. Followers of Hazar Imam are first Mulims then they are Ismailis, so being a Mulim Shahadah is compulsory. In other words if no Shahdah means Ismailism is void, and being a Muslim there is no condition of reciting Aliyun Amirul Mu'mineen, because Shahadah mentioned in Preamble does not contain that phrase of Amirul Mu'mineen.
Are you suggesting that we should stop the phrase about "Amirul Momineen" in our Kalima?
shivaathervedi wrote: 3. You wrote,"Shahadah binds all Muslims so we accept the Shahadah". Your statement shows we are compelled to accept it, or pretend to accept it, otherwise we should not have to.
Of course we should accept, however Ismailis progress beyond that.
shivaathervedi wrote: 4. The 3rd part of Kalima was added few centuries after Mowla Ali passed away by Shias. We do not have any proof it existed at time of Prophet or Mowla Ali or even at time of Imam Baqir.
So you are suggesting that we should only follow what was mentioned 14 centuries ago and ignore all the later developments?
shivaathervedi wrote: 5. Shias do believe in living Imam concept, though in occultation but still guiding through Ayatullahs, as Shias believe.
OK, I should have said present living Imam.
shivaathervedi wrote: 6. The current Ismaili document i.e Du'a shows Ali is first Imam, the wordings in Du'a are 'ALLAHUMA BIHAQQI MOWLANA ALI AND SECOND AFTER ALI IS MOWLANA HUSSAIN.....'
So are you saying that our faith started from Prophet Muhammad? Were was the Hujja before Muhammad?
shivaathervedi wrote: 7. The general consecuss among mostly Imailis is that Hazar Imams's guidance do not go beyond the teachings of Qurani Ta'limaat.
As I said, if you will study the Framans, you will seldom find any association with the Qur'an accept in the ethics. Guidance has to be ongoing, it cannot stop at one given time. Therefore Qur'an by itself is insufficient as guidance.
shivaathervedi wrote: 8. The meaning of Ginan part which you mentioned shows love between a sufi or a spiritual master and an adept. Sufi saying is "fana fil mMurshid is fana fi Rasul, and fana fi Rasul is fana fi Allah".
Yes but Fanna means total annihilation. The drop merging into the ocean.
shivaathervedi wrote: 9. It is unfortunate you wrote, Ali is superior than Muhammad, though Ali had ba'yat on hands of Prophet. Prophet Muhammad is also bearer of same Noor and Essence as Mowla Ali is. When Ali is Mazhar e zaat e Illahi so Prophet Muhammad is also.
According to our tradition the Prophet was the Pir and hence a murid of the Imam.
The Prophet did not appoint Hazarat but made Imamt manifest to the Umma.
1. I believe in our Tariqa only Imam has right to interpret or give batini explanation. If I, you, he, she, or some one else interpret or give batin that will be all mess and confusion, the end result will be fighting that will go against unity and Pluralism. So far Imam has not given any batini explanation of Preamble in 30+ years. For example;
If I say water, some batini can interpret as wine.
If I say an elephant, one can interpret as a monkey.
If I say Canadian $100, some one say in batin it means $1000.
2. Ali is not only Amirul mu'mineen but he is Amirul Muslimeen, and Amirul Insaniyat also.
3. Good, you accepted Shahadah, means Allah and Rasul comes first and from there we can progress spiritually.
4. You wrote," So you are suggesting that we should only follow what was mentioned 14 centuries ago and ignore ALL THE LATTER DEVELOPMENTS".
Form your above statement it is proved that addition of Ali Sahi Allah was latter addition and did not existed in time of Prophet or at time of Ali as Caliph.
6. Our Tariqa i.e Fiqa e Jafariyah started in time of Imam Ja'far Sadiq as Imam mentioned.
7. Imam shall not go beyond the prescribed rules or principles of Quran according to Hadith e Saqleen. Imam is to interpret Quran for his followers.
8. Right in fana drop is merging with ocean but drop can not claim or announce it is Universal God. God will kick that drop out of ocean and recycle it, and make it understand what real fana means. In Urdu there is a proverb; AAIE BOURCHIYANI BUN KAR, AUR BUN BAITHI GHAR KI MALIKAN.
9. It was a wrong perception that Pir is Prophet. MSMS disappeared that concept by giving new Du'a without names of Pirs and Shah Karim did not mentioned Pirs in Preamble. Noore Mustafvi and Noor e Murtazvi is same.

OHUNG NIRINJIN EK WARKHSH JO KITA
UN KO DALLI DOI JO DITA
EK NOOR E MUHAMMAD MUSTAFA
DUJA NOOR E ALI MURTAZA
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Post by Admin »

kmaherali wrote:What is the second article about if not doctrine which defines faith?

There are many aspects to doctrine and faith.

The purpose of a Forum such as this one is to try to have one thread running for each aspects of the doctrines. This allows people to remain focused and in the future, the person who search, can find answers to specific aspects of the doctrine.

Doctrine is a very general word encompassing umpteen subjects and if not divided, there is a risk that to find one aspect of the doctrine, for example Ali Allah, a person has to read all of the related discussion. While I agree that all aspects are inter-related,we still should try to discuss them in different thread as mush as possible.
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:First we all believe in Imam and also we believe 'ATIULLAH WA 'ATIUR RASUL WA ULIL AMR I.E IMAM. So forefather's faith wise we are on same page, no problem.
We are not on the same page because you don't accept ALI SAHI ALLAH that was used by our forefathers in their religious rites and ceremonies including Dua.

Qadi Noaman wrote his famous book Da'aim al Islam with the permission and blessings of Imam Muiz.The book was so important that by decree Imam Muiz ask followers to remember the book by heart. In the first chapter Willayah paragraph 78 Qadi Noaman has written, I quote;" Ali came across certain persons
who were extremists in this matter. they were beguiled by Satan's machinations and they said;You are our God, our creator, our Provider. From you is our beginning and to you is our return. There upon Ali's face under went a great change; he perspired ; he trembled like a reed with fear of the glory of God. May His glory be great. A GREAT ANGER CAME UPON ALI, and he ordered those around him to dig a large pit and said; verily, I shall fill this pit with flesh and bone of these people and so he burnt them".

In paragraph 79 Qadi Noaman wrote," This is a well known story and in the time of Imams who succeeded Ali there were many such reports of considerable length, for instance, the one named Mughira bin sa'ed, may God curse him. He was one of companions of Imam Muhammad Baqir, but Satan seduced him. He asserted that Imam Baqir was God, exalted above all is Almighty God, the lord of the worlds. He claimed that Imam Baqir sent him as apostle. Many of his companions followed him and they were called Mughairyya after his name. The Imam came to know about this heresy and was angry, but he could not kill the heretics as Ali did. So Imam Baqir cursed Mughira and his followers and dissociated himself from him and his doctrine.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote: Qadi Noaman wrote his famous book Da'aim al Islam with the permission and blessings of Imam Muiz.The book was so important that by decree Imam Muiz ask followers to remember the book by heart. In the first chapter Willayah paragraph 78 Qadi Noaman has written, I quote;" Ali came across certain persons
who were extremists in this matter. they were beguiled by Satan's machinations and they said;You are our God, our creator, our Provider. From you is our beginning and to you is our return. There upon Ali's face under went a great change; he perspired ; he trembled like a reed with fear of the glory of God. May His glory be great. A GREAT ANGER CAME UPON ALI, and he ordered those around him to dig a large pit and said; verily, I shall fill this pit with flesh and bone of these people and so he burnt them".

In paragraph 79 Qadi Noaman wrote," This is a well known story and in the time of Imams who succeeded Ali there were many such reports of considerable length, for instance, the one named Mughira bin sa'ed, may God curse him. He was one of companions of Imam Muhammad Baqir, but Satan seduced him. He asserted that Imam Baqir was God, exalted above all is Almighty God, the lord of the worlds. He claimed that Imam Baqir sent him as apostle. Many of his companions followed him and they were called Mughairyya after his name. The Imam came to know about this heresy and was angry, but he could not kill the heretics as Ali did. So Imam Baqir cursed Mughira and his followers and dissociated himself from him and his doctrine.
ALI SAHI ALLAH is an esoteric concept. It is not a concept that one shouts about in the streets. If you talk about batini matters in a Zahiri context, then of course there will be problems.

Excerpt from the True Meaning of Religion:

Imam Ja'far Sadiq once replied to a man who asked him whether it is true

that at the Day of Resurrection God will become visible to all?" Yes",

-said he, -"He is visible even before that day. He is visible to His

slaves from the day when He asked them: "am I not your Lord?" Do not

you see Him?" The man who asked the question then replied: "O my Lord,

I see thee! Give me the permission to tell this (to others) on thy

authority". The Imam replied: "do not tell this to anybody, because

people are stupid and ignorant, [39] they shall disbelieve you, regarding

this as impiety (kufr)".

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0693.html
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote: 1. I believe in our Tariqa only Imam has right to interpret or give batini explanation. If I, you, he, she, or some one else interpret or give batin that will be all mess and confusion, the end result will be fighting that will go against unity and Pluralism.
Yes the Imam and the Pir is responsible for the Batini aspects. But the batin has always been there and has been clarified in Farmans, Ginans and Qasidas. You only have to use a bit of your intellect to make that connection. Haven't we heard Farmans about the Noor of Imamat being everpresent?
shivaathervedi wrote: 2. Ali is not only Amirul mu'mineen but he is Amirul Muslimeen, and Amirul Insaniyat also.
Hence we should mention him in our Kalima.
shivaathervedi wrote: 3. Good, you accepted Shahadah, means Allah and Rasul comes first and from there we can progress spiritually.
Shahada is the zaher, but the batini is an individual matter. The zaher and the batin can be diametrically opposed. What is of essence is not the zaher but the batin.
shivaathervedi wrote: 4. You wrote," So you are suggesting that we should only follow what was mentioned 14 centuries ago and ignore ALL THE LATTER DEVELOPMENTS".
Form your above statement it is proved that addition of Ali Sahi Allah was latter addition and did not existed in time of Prophet or at time of Ali as Caliph.
Not necessarily, there are statements of Hazarat Ali such as I am the first and I am the last etc
shivaathervedi wrote: 6. Our Tariqa i.e Fiqa e Jafariyah started in time of Imam Ja'far Sadiq as Imam mentioned.
This is the zaher. From the batin, our tariqah has existed from the beginning.
shivaathervedi wrote: 7. Imam shall not go beyond the prescribed rules or principles of Quran according to Hadith e Saqleen. Imam is to interpret Quran for his followers.
Does the Imam tell you in the Farmans that what he mentioned is the interpretation of such and such verse of the Qur'an?The provides the Talim which can be independent of the Qur'an. Tafsir is interpretation.
shivaathervedi wrote: 8. Right in fana drop is merging with ocean but drop can not claim or announce it is Universal God. God will kick that drop out of ocean and recycle it, and make it understand what real fana means. In Urdu there is a proverb; AAIE BOURCHIYANI BUN KAR, AUR BUN BAITHI GHAR KI MALIKAN.
Drop is not there anymore, it is only the Ocean!
shivaathervedi wrote: 9. It was a wrong perception that Pir is Prophet. MSMS disappeared that concept by giving new Du'a without names of Pirs and Shah Karim did not mentioned Pirs in Preamble. Noore Mustafvi and Noor e Murtazvi is same.
So you are saying that our forefathers were reciting wrong Dua for centuries? Did he not appoint his grandson as Shah and the Pir of the Ismailis?
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: Qadi Noaman wrote his famous book Da'aim al Islam with the permission and blessings of Imam Muiz.The book was so important that by decree Imam Muiz ask followers to remember the book by heart. In the first chapter Willayah paragraph 78 Qadi Noaman has written, I quote;" Ali came across certain persons
who were extremists in this matter. they were beguiled by Satan's machinations and they said;You are our God, our creator, our Provider. From you is our beginning and to you is our return. There upon Ali's face under went a great change; he perspired ; he trembled like a reed with fear of the glory of God. May His glory be great. A GREAT ANGER CAME UPON ALI, and he ordered those around him to dig a large pit and said; verily, I shall fill this pit with flesh and bone of these people and so he burnt them".

In paragraph 79 Qadi Noaman wrote," This is a well known story and in the time of Imams who succeeded Ali there were many such reports of considerable length, for instance, the one named Mughira bin sa'ed, may God curse him. He was one of companions of Imam Muhammad Baqir, but Satan seduced him. He asserted that Imam Baqir was God, exalted above all is Almighty God, the lord of the worlds. He claimed that Imam Baqir sent him as apostle. Many of his companions followed him and they were called Mughairyya after his name. The Imam came to know about this heresy and was angry, but he could not kill the heretics as Ali did. So Imam Baqir cursed Mughira and his followers and dissociated himself from him and his doctrine.
ALI SAHI ALLAH is an esoteric concept. It is not a concept that one shouts about in the streets. If you talk about batini matters in a Zahiri context, then of course there will be problems.

Excerpt from the True Meaning of Religion:

Imam Ja'far Sadiq once replied to a man who asked him whether it is true

that at the Day of Resurrection God will become visible to all?" Yes",

-said he, -"He is visible even before that day. He is visible to His

slaves from the day when He asked them: "am I not your Lord?" Do not

you see Him?" The man who asked the question then replied: "O my Lord,

I see thee! Give me the permission to tell this (to others) on thy

authority". The Imam replied: "do not tell this to anybody, because

people are stupid and ignorant, [39] they shall disbelieve you, regarding

this as impiety (kufr)".

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0693.html

Zahir is apparent and clear where as batin is in darkness.
I quoted Qadi Noaman the well known jurist of Ismailis. He wrote Du'aim with permission and blessings of Imam Muiz. Question arises was he wrong in his statements of Mowla Ali and Imam Baqir?
Mowla Ali ordered to burn those who wrongly called him Allah and Imam Baqir distanced himself from Mughirah group who considered him God. Again question is, was Mughirah and his group Imani or blasphemous?

In your quote from Risala dar Haqiqat e Din, there is a flaw. Imam Ja'far asked his follower not to discuss or tell any one about his position but that follower did NAFARMANI and tell the story to many people. Again question is father (Imam Baqir) denied that position but son (Imam Ja'far) adopted that position. Who is right father or son both being Imams?

Pir Shahbuddin did nafarmani of Imam when Imam Ja'far said not to declare but a Pir did it and quoting it in his book, is this not an act of NAFARMANI?
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: 1. I believe in our Tariqa only Imam has right to interpret or give batini explanation. If I, you, he, she, or some one else interpret or give batin that will be all mess and confusion, the end result will be fighting that will go against unity and Pluralism.
Yes the Imam and the Pir is responsible for the Batini aspects. But the batin has always been there and has been clarified in Farmans, Ginans and Qasidas. You only have to use a bit of your intellect to make that connection. Haven't we heard Farmans about the Noor of Imamat being everpresent?
shivaathervedi wrote: 2. Ali is not only Amirul mu'mineen but he is Amirul Muslimeen, and Amirul Insaniyat also.
Hence we should mention him in our Kalima.
shivaathervedi wrote: 3. Good, you accepted Shahadah, means Allah and Rasul comes first and from there we can progress spiritually.
Shahada is the zaher, but the batini is an individual matter. The zaher and the batin can be diametrically opposed. What is of essence is not the zaher but the batin.
shivaathervedi wrote: 4. You wrote," So you are suggesting that we should only follow what was mentioned 14 centuries ago and ignore ALL THE LATTER DEVELOPMENTS".
Form your above statement it is proved that addition of Ali Sahi Allah was latter addition and did not existed in time of Prophet or at time of Ali as Caliph.
Not necessarily, there are statements of Hazarat Ali such as I am the first and I am the last etc
shivaathervedi wrote: 6. Our Tariqa i.e Fiqa e Jafariyah started in time of Imam Ja'far Sadiq as Imam mentioned.
This is the zaher. From the batin, our tariqah has existed from the beginning.
shivaathervedi wrote: 7. Imam shall not go beyond the prescribed rules or principles of Quran according to Hadith e Saqleen. Imam is to interpret Quran for his followers.
Does the Imam tell you in the Farmans that what he mentioned is the interpretation of such and such verse of the Qur'an?The provides the Talim which can be independent of the Qur'an. Tafsir is interpretation.
shivaathervedi wrote: 8. Right in fana drop is merging with ocean but drop can not claim or announce it is Universal God. God will kick that drop out of ocean and recycle it, and make it understand what real fana means. In Urdu there is a proverb; AAIE BOURCHIYANI BUN KAR, AUR BUN BAITHI GHAR KI MALIKAN.
Drop is not there anymore, it is only the Ocean!
shivaathervedi wrote: 9. It was a wrong perception that Pir is Prophet. MSMS disappeared that concept by giving new Du'a without names of Pirs and Shah Karim did not mentioned Pirs in Preamble. Noore Mustafvi and Noor e Murtazvi is same.
So you are saying that our forefathers were reciting wrong Dua for centuries? Did he not appoint his grandson as Shah and the Pir of the Ismailis?
1. Noor e Imamat is because of Noor of Allah. Imam is Mazhar OF Allah. In batin any one call himself what he wants.
2. Mostly Shias consider themselves as jamait of Mu'mineen and others are outsiders. Is Mowla Ali not Amirul Muslimeen?
3. Zahir is apparent, visible, and clear where as batin is hidden and in darkness, can't say the person is god or ghost.
4. Every person is first and last but there is REAL ENTITY WHO IS BEFORE FIRST.
5. No where in any revealed books is written that Ismailism is from primordial times.
6. Is Ta'lim not an explanation. Imam do not go beyond teachings of Quran. Our previous Imams and present Imam has quoted from Quran.
7. If drop thinks it is ocean then that particular drop is called fallen from grace and shall be kicked out of ocean in atmosphere and evaporated.
8. Question is not that Imam is Pir or not. Of course present Imam is Pir. My assertion is that Ismailis out side Satpunthi circle DO NOT consider Pir is above Prophet. The sequence is, Allah, Rasul, Imam, Pir.
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Post by shivaathervedi »

Nasir-e-Khusraw in his book GUSHAYSIH WA RAHAYISH (Knowledge and Liberation) refers to group of Muslims as "Mimiya" and "Ayiniya". These two words are derived from "Meem" refer to Prophet Mohammad, and "Ayn" refer to Mowla Ali. These group of people believe that Prophet Mohammad or H Ali is God. Nasir refuted their claim very harshly saying that the Prophet and Imam are disgusted by their claim. And from whom the Prophet and Imam are disgusted, God is disgusted from them as well.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

It is a matter of context and audience. Nasir Khusraw himself believed in the Imam as God because he could not have written the following in his Kalame Pir.

"If by any chance Hazar Imam disappears from the world even for a moment, the world would instantly collapse."

'The Imam is the Hujjat or proof of God and it is for this reason that some Imams have said: "What is said about God also refers to us."

For more details go to page numbers 7-8 at:

03-The Noor En Allah Noor: 8 downloads

http://ismaili.net/heritage/files/NoorE ... or1-40.pdf
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote:
Pir Shahbuddin did nafarmani of Imam when Imam Ja'far said not to declare but a Pir did it and quoting it in his book, is this not an act of NAFARMANI?
How can the Pir do Nafarmani when he himself issues the Farmans?
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
Pir Shahbuddin did nafarmani of Imam when Imam Ja'far said not to declare but a Pir did it and quoting it in his book, is this not an act of NAFARMANI?
How can the Pir do Nafarmani when he himself issues the Farmans?
In the presence of Imam Pir is Samit (silent) and can not make any Farman on his own until directed or allowed by Imam. When Imam said NO but Pir went against it, what shall it be called?!
shivaathervedi
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Post by shivaathervedi »

kmaherali wrote:It is a matter of context and audience. Nasir Khusraw himself believed in the Imam as God because he could not have written the following in his Kalame Pir.

"If by any chance Hazar Imam disappears from the world even for a moment, the world would instantly collapse."

'The Imam is the Hujjat or proof of God and it is for this reason that some Imams have said: "What is said about God also refers to us."

For more details go to page numbers 7-8 at:

03-The Noor En Allah Noor: 8 downloads

http://ismaili.net/heritage/files/NoorE ... or1-40.pdf

The book you mentioned is a collection of lectures delivered by the author which has never been recommended by Ismailia Association of that time nor later on ITREB. The book has many flaws and contradictions. For example you mentioned the page # 7; there he praises and wrote:
Subhan Allah
Al Hamdulillah
Allahuma sal e ala Muhammadin wa AAL E MUHAMMAD. Is Imam not from AAL E MUHAMMAD? In salawat we pray to Allah to bestow blessings on Prophet Muhammad and his progeny i.e AAL.
Once I asked you, where is the original KALAM E PIR IN FARSI? Was that written by even Nasir Khusraw or some one else. Nasir NEVER claimed that Imam is God. He knew it is blasphemous. Please do not hide behind the matter of context or audience. Hazar Imam said, " ONLY ALLAH IS PERFECT". As you wrote Imam is HUJJAT OF GOD!! Hujjat of who obviously that is Allah.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote:In the presence of Imam Pir is Samit (silent) and can not make any Farman on his own until directed or allowed by Imam. When Imam said NO but Pir went against it, what shall it be called?!
When a Pir is appointed by the Imam, he is automatically authorized to make Farmans of on behalf of the Imam. It is part of our tradition that Farmans made in a given context and time can supersede Farmans made 1000 years ago.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

shivaathervedi wrote:The book you mentioned is a collection of lectures delivered by the author which has never been recommended by Ismailia Association of that time nor later on ITREB. The book has many flaws and contradictions.
Can you provide examples of flaws and contradictions in the book. This book was presented to MHI and he accepted it. He would not accept a flawed work with contradictions.
shivaathervedi wrote: For example you mentioned the page # 7; there he praises and wrote:
Subhan Allah
Al Hamdulillah
Allahuma sal e ala Muhammadin wa AAL E MUHAMMAD. Is Imam not from AAL E MUHAMMAD? In salawat we pray to Allah to bestow blessings on Prophet Muhammad and his progeny i.e AAL..
This is not a contradiction. Salwat is a shariah practice common to all Muslims and hence we have to recite according to the pattern of the Shariah. We cannot look different in that respect.
shivaathervedi wrote: Once I asked you, where is the original KALAM E PIR IN FARSI? Was that written by even Nasir Khusraw or some one else. Nasir NEVER claimed that Imam is God. He knew it is blasphemous. Please do not hide behind the matter of context or audience. Hazar Imam said, " ONLY ALLAH IS PERFECT". As you wrote Imam is HUJJAT OF GOD!! Hujjat of who obviously that is Allah.
I have not seen the original copy in Farsi because I have not sought it. I do not know Farsi so it would be of little value to me. However the author has indicated that it was translated into English by Ivanow. I have no reason to doubt that.
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