Dear friends,
Without annoying any one, just for information, Can we call kith and kins
of Imam as members of Ahl e bait or members of Noorani family as I heard from many jamaitis and some missionaries?
kith and kins as members of ahl e bait or noorani family.
Prince Amyn, Princess Zahra etc are members of the "Noorani Family". they were entitled to , have earned this title and they deserved it. They have done nothing to lower the prestige of their status or the respect of that name as members of Noorani family.
But we can not indiscriminately put the title and the respect because some have been usurpers of Imam's right. You may have heard of Musa Kazim or Musteali.
Why this sudden concern?
Admin
But we can not indiscriminately put the title and the respect because some have been usurpers of Imam's right. You may have heard of Musa Kazim or Musteali.
Why this sudden concern?
Admin
Dear Administration,
In response to your query," Why this sudden concern." Some time back in higher RC classes and on a forum this question was asked. " Can we call kith and kins of Imam as members of Ahl e bait or members of Noorani family." I asked this question for input from readers and participating scholars of this site.
In my personal view I call them," ROYAL FAMILY." There is no doubt about the services of Prince Amin and Princess Zahra for their philanthropic, humaniterian and Ismaili community work. We all respect and adore them. But your assertion created another question; then what about Prince Rahim, Prince Hussain, and Prince Ali Muhammad.
Only Hazar Imam is entitled for the Noor, that's why we call Him Noor Mowlana Shah Karim AL hussaini.We don't use the word Noor for other family members. I wished some scholars have shed light on it.
In response to your query," Why this sudden concern." Some time back in higher RC classes and on a forum this question was asked. " Can we call kith and kins of Imam as members of Ahl e bait or members of Noorani family." I asked this question for input from readers and participating scholars of this site.
In my personal view I call them," ROYAL FAMILY." There is no doubt about the services of Prince Amin and Princess Zahra for their philanthropic, humaniterian and Ismaili community work. We all respect and adore them. But your assertion created another question; then what about Prince Rahim, Prince Hussain, and Prince Ali Muhammad.
Only Hazar Imam is entitled for the Noor, that's why we call Him Noor Mowlana Shah Karim AL hussaini.We don't use the word Noor for other family members. I wished some scholars have shed light on it.
Re: kith and kins as members of ahl e bait or noorani family
We should always keep this in mind:
The Imām is perfect when still in the form of sperm in the loins of his father and the pure womb of his mother. An Imām is always an Imām and always perfect.
– Imām Ḥasan ‘alā dhikrihi al-salām,
So, Imam even before becoming the Imam, is actually the Hujjat [Proof] of the Imam of the Time.
The Imām is perfect when still in the form of sperm in the loins of his father and the pure womb of his mother. An Imām is always an Imām and always perfect.
– Imām Ḥasan ‘alā dhikrihi al-salām,
So, Imam even before becoming the Imam, is actually the Hujjat [Proof] of the Imam of the Time.
In our history there have been periods when some members of the Ahl al-Bayt acted negatively and harmed the cause of Imamat. However in the present times especially in the periods of the 48th and 49th Imams, the members of Ahl al-baty have worked in unison for the cause of Imamat and hence can be called Nurani Family.The Nurani Family members have a different role and are well aware of the privilege they are bestowed from birth and try to make good use of it. They do a lot of work behind the scenes without the Jamat being aware. In the Farman made to the Lisbon Jamat on 11th July 1998 MHI said:
"But I do not want to ignore or not to mention other members of My family who are working for the Jamat. And one of them is Prince Amyn whose time and talent and thought and creativity have been responsible for many of the exceptional projects that have been developed over the past years. And in many ways he exemplifies the true spirit of service in Islam. He seeks no recognition. And this is an opportunity for me to give him that recognition in front of My Jamat."
Prince Sadruddin in an interview granted to the "Third World Affairs 1985" stated about his father and their relationship:
"He was greatly misunderstood in both East and West because people only saw certain facets of his personality, but not the whole being. His conversations with me, the contacts we had, the fact that the family was in orbit around him during his lifetime, left a very powerful imprint. Perhaps I felt that because I had this background I should somehow strive to put it to good use....."
Below is an excerpt of MHI's interview with Life Magazine Margot Dougherty and Richard B. Stolley, ˜In Him, East and West Meet" (New York, USA), December 1983,
MD & RB: You have two sons. One of them will succeed you, the other one
will not. Yet, as a father, you obviously want to treat these two sons as
equally as possible. What do you do?
AK: Well, during my lifetime, I will treat them absolutely identically.
They must have the same education, some exposure, same understanding of their father's work, I would not want to make any differentiation between them, any more than my grandfather made any differentiation between my brother and myself.
MD & RB: And your daughter?
AK: Obviously, though my daughter cannot be Imam, there's no reason that she should not be intimately involved with and contribute to Imamate programs, particularly women's activities.
"But I do not want to ignore or not to mention other members of My family who are working for the Jamat. And one of them is Prince Amyn whose time and talent and thought and creativity have been responsible for many of the exceptional projects that have been developed over the past years. And in many ways he exemplifies the true spirit of service in Islam. He seeks no recognition. And this is an opportunity for me to give him that recognition in front of My Jamat."
Prince Sadruddin in an interview granted to the "Third World Affairs 1985" stated about his father and their relationship:
"He was greatly misunderstood in both East and West because people only saw certain facets of his personality, but not the whole being. His conversations with me, the contacts we had, the fact that the family was in orbit around him during his lifetime, left a very powerful imprint. Perhaps I felt that because I had this background I should somehow strive to put it to good use....."
Below is an excerpt of MHI's interview with Life Magazine Margot Dougherty and Richard B. Stolley, ˜In Him, East and West Meet" (New York, USA), December 1983,
MD & RB: You have two sons. One of them will succeed you, the other one
will not. Yet, as a father, you obviously want to treat these two sons as
equally as possible. What do you do?
AK: Well, during my lifetime, I will treat them absolutely identically.
They must have the same education, some exposure, same understanding of their father's work, I would not want to make any differentiation between them, any more than my grandfather made any differentiation between my brother and myself.
MD & RB: And your daughter?
AK: Obviously, though my daughter cannot be Imam, there's no reason that she should not be intimately involved with and contribute to Imamate programs, particularly women's activities.
Ya Ali Madad:
the immediate family of MHI in known and respectfully called as noorani family unless MHI HAS SPECIFICALLY tells us as what they are to be called as.
As for Ahle bayt a haqiqati n beyond level can co relate the souls to core 5 + Salman from this glorious 49th Imam. few Imam cycles has full Ahle Bayt
.we are indeed blessed to have them for us.
In JK and In ismaili magazine they are addressed and looke upon as Noorani family till any other word/status is given by MHI to address or know them for ismailis.
For Non Ismailies this may not apply.
the immediate family of MHI in known and respectfully called as noorani family unless MHI HAS SPECIFICALLY tells us as what they are to be called as.
As for Ahle bayt a haqiqati n beyond level can co relate the souls to core 5 + Salman from this glorious 49th Imam. few Imam cycles has full Ahle Bayt
.we are indeed blessed to have them for us.
In JK and In ismaili magazine they are addressed and looke upon as Noorani family till any other word/status is given by MHI to address or know them for ismailis.
For Non Ismailies this may not apply.
"In our history there have been periods when some members of the Ahl al-Bayt acted negatively and harmed the cause of Imamat. However in the present times especially in the periods of the 48th and 49th Imams, the members of Ahl al-baty have worked in unison for the cause of Imamat and hence can be called Nurani Family.The Nurani Family members have a different role and are well aware of the privilege they are bestowed from birth and try to make good use of it. They do a lot of work behind the scenes without the Jamat being aware. In the Farman made to the Lisbon Jamat on 11th July 1998 MHI said:"
Km, with ref. to your above post, I need some clearification. No doubt we respect, admire and adore the immediate family of HI for their community work open or behind the scenes. My question is, the bearer of Noor is MHI, therefore it can not be used for other person according to Ismaili philosophy. There fore I call Royal family. Let me put my question in this way;
1. Imam Ja'far Sadiq had 7 sons out of which 4 claimed Imamat. Apart from Imam Ismaili, the other 3, can we call them from noorani family.
2. After Imam Mustansirbillah, the Ismaili Imam was Imam Nizar, can Hazrat Musta'li be counted out of noorani family.
3. Imam Qasim Shah was our true Imam, can we call his real brother Muhammad Shah out of noorani family, because he split from his brother and started new sect
called Muhammad shahi.
4. Can we call begum Salima and begum Anara from noorani family?
5. Now your assertion,," some members of the Ahl e Bayt acted negatively and harmed the cause of Imamat." Can these members be called from the noorani family.
Km, I shall be waiting for your reply.
Km, with ref. to your above post, I need some clearification. No doubt we respect, admire and adore the immediate family of HI for their community work open or behind the scenes. My question is, the bearer of Noor is MHI, therefore it can not be used for other person according to Ismaili philosophy. There fore I call Royal family. Let me put my question in this way;
1. Imam Ja'far Sadiq had 7 sons out of which 4 claimed Imamat. Apart from Imam Ismaili, the other 3, can we call them from noorani family.
2. After Imam Mustansirbillah, the Ismaili Imam was Imam Nizar, can Hazrat Musta'li be counted out of noorani family.
3. Imam Qasim Shah was our true Imam, can we call his real brother Muhammad Shah out of noorani family, because he split from his brother and started new sect
called Muhammad shahi.
4. Can we call begum Salima and begum Anara from noorani family?
5. Now your assertion,," some members of the Ahl e Bayt acted negatively and harmed the cause of Imamat." Can these members be called from the noorani family.
Km, I shall be waiting for your reply.
I cannot say about the past and how the Imams treated their family members. But since we know for sure that the persons worked against the interest of Imamat, we cannot call them members of Nurani family.mazhar wrote: Km, I shall be waiting for your reply.
Regarding the wives, in most cases they are not the murids of the Imam, so they cannot be considered as members of Nurani family although of course they are engaged in the work of Imamat when married.
Generally however we must regard all memebers as part of Nurani family especially when we know that they are working for the cause of Imamat, unless of course if they revolt.
Dear kmaherali,
mazhar wrote:
Km, I shall be waiting for your reply.
"I cannot say about the past and how the Imams treated their family members. But since we know for sure that the persons worked against the interest of Imamat, we cannot call them members of Nurani family.
Regarding the wives, in most cases they are not the murids of the Imam, so they cannot be considered as members of Nurani family although of course they are engaged in the work of Imamat when married.
Generally however we must regard all memebers as part of Nurani family especially when we know that they are working for the cause of Imamat, unless of course if they revolt."
Km, with ref. to above post, let me ask you a dangerous question. MSMS's mother remained ISNA'ASHIRI till end and is burried at NAJAF ASHRAF in IRAQ. She was doing all sorts of Muharam rituals, also Ismailis were involved in the majalis and seena kubi. MSMS stoped all those rituals after her death and asked followers to stop those. It is said that khoja isna'ashiris which is called chhoti jamait drifted away from us. Any comment?
mazhar wrote:
Km, I shall be waiting for your reply.
"I cannot say about the past and how the Imams treated their family members. But since we know for sure that the persons worked against the interest of Imamat, we cannot call them members of Nurani family.
Regarding the wives, in most cases they are not the murids of the Imam, so they cannot be considered as members of Nurani family although of course they are engaged in the work of Imamat when married.
Generally however we must regard all memebers as part of Nurani family especially when we know that they are working for the cause of Imamat, unless of course if they revolt."
Km, with ref. to above post, let me ask you a dangerous question. MSMS's mother remained ISNA'ASHIRI till end and is burried at NAJAF ASHRAF in IRAQ. She was doing all sorts of Muharam rituals, also Ismailis were involved in the majalis and seena kubi. MSMS stoped all those rituals after her death and asked followers to stop those. It is said that khoja isna'ashiris which is called chhoti jamait drifted away from us. Any comment?
Mazhar do you have any proof of the above mentioned claim. Or is this another unsubstantiated claim like Ismailis and Juma Namaz.mazhar wrote:Dear kmaherali,
mazhar wrote:
Km, with ref. to above post, let me ask you a dangerous question. MSMS's mother remained ISNA'ASHIRI till end and is burried at NAJAF ASHRAF in IRAQ. She was doing all sorts of Muharam rituals, also Ismailis were involved in the majalis and seena kubi. MSMS stoped all those rituals after her death and asked followers to stop those. It is said that khoja isna'ashiris which is called chhoti jamait drifted away from us. Any comment?
Tret wrote
I don't believe i am qualified enough to answer that question tret. I can tell you my own experiences and my personal answer. Namaz or Dua are obligatory prayers if you follow a certain tariqa within the Muslim civilization. Therefore if you are a sunni, your namaz will reflect your religious philosophy, just like dua reflects ours. Therefore in my view if you are comfortable praying the sunni namaz, which is different from the shia namaz, then you are not comfortable with the Ismaili dua. Dont let anybody tell you that both shia and sunni pray the same way, there are major differences in the text of the Namaz's of both of the sects.
Also the comment Mazhar made was of specifically Pakistani jamat, of which i was a part of. In that respect the tariqa board discouraged it strongly. REC teachers would tell us that MSMS use to say that if you try to ride two horses you would fall. The message was that if you are an ismaili, stick with and stay away from other sect's rituals. If we knew of somebody who would pray with the sunnis. we considered them to be drifted already.
Now i don't know what situation you would have if you were in Syria, and salafis were wanting to chop your head of for not saying the Namaz.
Tret lastly a line from Risala Dar Haqiqati Din, and I paraphrase. Worship is obedience and if we are to worship God then we are to obey the Imam and therefore Dua and not the namaz holds true for us. Again my personal view
tret wrote:Just FYI... even today Jama'at in certain parts of the world praying 5 times, which includes Juma Namaz. Observing Namaz, Roza [Fast] etc.. aren't sin or against Ismaili tariqa or is it?fayaz006 wrote:Or is this another unsubstantiated claim like Ismailis and Juma Namaz.
I don't believe i am qualified enough to answer that question tret. I can tell you my own experiences and my personal answer. Namaz or Dua are obligatory prayers if you follow a certain tariqa within the Muslim civilization. Therefore if you are a sunni, your namaz will reflect your religious philosophy, just like dua reflects ours. Therefore in my view if you are comfortable praying the sunni namaz, which is different from the shia namaz, then you are not comfortable with the Ismaili dua. Dont let anybody tell you that both shia and sunni pray the same way, there are major differences in the text of the Namaz's of both of the sects.
Also the comment Mazhar made was of specifically Pakistani jamat, of which i was a part of. In that respect the tariqa board discouraged it strongly. REC teachers would tell us that MSMS use to say that if you try to ride two horses you would fall. The message was that if you are an ismaili, stick with and stay away from other sect's rituals. If we knew of somebody who would pray with the sunnis. we considered them to be drifted already.
Now i don't know what situation you would have if you were in Syria, and salafis were wanting to chop your head of for not saying the Namaz.
Tret lastly a line from Risala Dar Haqiqati Din, and I paraphrase. Worship is obedience and if we are to worship God then we are to obey the Imam and therefore Dua and not the namaz holds true for us. Again my personal view
Dear Fayaz,
I kind of agree insofar that each tariqa has their own rites and rituals and there's spiritual physiology behind'em. I also understand, as you rightfully stated, that both sunni and shia have their own rituals for offering prayer [namaz]. Now, you said we have to obey Imam-e-Zaman. I couldn't agree with you more. I don't believe there's any dispute in obeying Imam-e-Zaman at all between the entire Jama'at of the world. But, what I am trying to say or rather find out, is there any Farmaan of Imam to forbid from praying 5 times??. My personal take would be this: If one wants to offer 5 times prayer, they should be able to do so, provided they must observe our Du'a as well. this is again my personal take and I could be wrong. These are context sensitive topics and folks who are in the west may not have full vision of those jama'at who are out in the east. i.e. you mentioned the example of syria.
I know Jama'at of Afghanistan do have mosque and offer 5 times prayer, besides Du'a. I am not fully aware as which ritual they follow [sunni or shia], but I do know that there's mosque and Jama'at offers both Namaz and Du'a. If you look historically, Dua and Namaz co-existed. For the record, I am not offering 5 times namaz [I guess I am too lazy for that now
]; But, I try my best not to miss my 3 times Du'a.
I kind of agree insofar that each tariqa has their own rites and rituals and there's spiritual physiology behind'em. I also understand, as you rightfully stated, that both sunni and shia have their own rituals for offering prayer [namaz]. Now, you said we have to obey Imam-e-Zaman. I couldn't agree with you more. I don't believe there's any dispute in obeying Imam-e-Zaman at all between the entire Jama'at of the world. But, what I am trying to say or rather find out, is there any Farmaan of Imam to forbid from praying 5 times??. My personal take would be this: If one wants to offer 5 times prayer, they should be able to do so, provided they must observe our Du'a as well. this is again my personal take and I could be wrong. These are context sensitive topics and folks who are in the west may not have full vision of those jama'at who are out in the east. i.e. you mentioned the example of syria.
I know Jama'at of Afghanistan do have mosque and offer 5 times prayer, besides Du'a. I am not fully aware as which ritual they follow [sunni or shia], but I do know that there's mosque and Jama'at offers both Namaz and Du'a. If you look historically, Dua and Namaz co-existed. For the record, I am not offering 5 times namaz [I guess I am too lazy for that now
]; But, I try my best not to miss my 3 times Du'a.Hello trettret wrote:Dear Fayaz,
I kind of agree insofar that each tariqa has their own rites and rituals and there's spiritual physiology behind'em. I also understand, as you rightfully stated, that both sunni and shia have their own rituals for offering prayer [namaz]. Now, you said we have to obey Imam-e-Zaman. I couldn't agree with you more. I don't believe there's any dispute in obeying Imam-e-Zaman at all between the entire Jama'at of the world. But, what I am trying to say or rather find out, is there any Farmaan of Imam to forbid from praying 5 times??. My personal take would be this: If one wants to offer 5 times prayer, they should be able to do so, provided they must observe our Du'a as well. this is again my personal take and I could be wrong. These are context sensitive topics and folks who are in the west may not have full vision of those jama'at who are out in the east. i.e. you mentioned the example of syria.
I know Jama'at of Afghanistan do have mosque and offer 5 times prayer, besides Du'a. I am not fully aware as which ritual they follow [sunni or shia], but I do know that there's mosque and Jama'at offers both Namaz and Du'a. If you look historically, Dua and Namaz co-existed. For the record, I am not offering 5 times namaz [I guess I am too lazy for that now
In the case of Afghani jamat don't be surprised if living around the Taliban has not influenced the decision making. As for your personal take on the 5 prayers I agree with your statement that everybody's faith is internal. However I would frame the issue this way. If an ismaili feels obliged to offer prayer 5 times a day, why not use the dua 5 times a day. Why the need to offer namaz of someone else's Tariqa. Is the ismaili in doubt that dua given to him by the Noor of God is insufficient? You see here lies the issue. For the Ismaili the Imam of the time holds the authority of giving the Prescribed Prayers.
Therefore saying namaz means one is no longer acknowledging the Imam and therefore the Noor of God in their prayers. At which point you must ask is the person an ismaili any more?
As for you trying to offer prayer 5 times a day, I wouldn't sweat it to much. For an Ismaili every good act including searching for knowledge, helping others, ibadat, love of the imam, all are considered to be acts of prayers provided they are done in good faith.
I think Lady Ali Shah might have become a murid towards the end of her life. MSMS did not attend her burial. According to Ismaili tradition the Imam does not attend the burial of his murid.mazhar wrote: Km, with ref. to above post, let me ask you a dangerous question. MSMS's mother remained ISNA'ASHIRI till end and is burried at NAJAF ASHRAF in IRAQ. She was doing all sorts of Muharam rituals, also Ismailis were involved in the majalis and seena kubi. MSMS stoped all those rituals after her death and asked followers to stop those. It is said that khoja isna'ashiris which is called chhoti jamait drifted away from us. Any comment?
When MSMS was a child, Lady Ali Shah used to take care of all the communal and institutional day to day running. After he became of age, she did not take part in the communal activities.
I have no knowledge of the majalis and other activities of her, so I cannot comment.
I agree with you.tret wrote: I know Jama'at of Afghanistan do have mosque and offer 5 times prayer, besides Du'a. I am not fully aware as which ritual they follow [sunni or shia], but I do know that there's mosque and Jama'at offers both Namaz and Du'a. If you look historically, Dua and Namaz co-existed. For the record, I am not offering 5 times namaz [I guess I am too lazy for that now
In his Talika Farman on the completion of GJ MHI stated:
""Throughout the Jamat's history, including during the Fatimid times, a consistent feature of the Ismaili Tariqah has been the complementarity between practices that are specific to our Tariqah, and those that are part of the Sharia, common to all Muslims, albeit with denominational specificities. Examples of this are the historic co-existence between Namaz and Du'a, and the concept of private prayer and personal search, which has an important place in Islam, since it concerns the relationship of faith with life. It is in this light that, in Shia Ismaili Islam, the Imam-of-the-Time recognises a variety of prayers, tasbihs, Bait-ul-Khayal, Qaseedas, Ginans, by which an individual can submit to the Divine and protect himself or herself against the materialism of secular life, and the many other challenges of daily life."
From the above we can infer that there has been a coexistence between the Sharia and Tariqah practices. In certain contexts it may be necessary to observe the Sharia as in the case of Afghanistan. So if there is a need to say the Namaz we can say it provided we do not thereby compromise the Tariqah practices. In fact that was the reason for making the Ismaili Namaz available for those who needed to practice the Sharia Namaz as well.
In our Tariqah we are told to remember Allah at all times. So what is wrong if that takes expression in the form of a Namaz.
In the same Farman he stated:kmaherali wrote:
In his Talika Farman on the completion of GJ MHI stated:
"It is also in this context that I have instructed my institutions to make available to the Jamat globally, within the next year or so, a formal, uniform text of the Shia Imami Ismaili Namaz that I will have approved. This text, which is fully aligned with most forms of Namaz
practised historically within the Jamat, and in many other schools of Islam, will reflect the centrality of the hereditary Imamat in our Tariqah. It will also affirm the principle of each individual’s personal search as guided by the Imam-of-the-Time, and the Jamat’s historic commitment to the notion of a common humanity."
So was Namaaz format was made available? If so what is it? Why are Murids like Fayaz still looking for it?kmaherali wrote:In the same Farman he stated:kmaherali wrote:
In his Talika Farman on the completion of GJ MHI stated:
"It is also in this context that I have instructed my institutions to make available to the Jamat globally, within the next year or so, a formal, uniform text of the Shia Imami Ismaili Namaz that I will have approved. This text, which is fully aligned with most forms of Namaz
practised historically within the Jamat, and in many other schools of Islam, will reflect the centrality of the hereditary Imamat in our Tariqah. It will also affirm the principle of each individual’s personal search as guided by the Imam-of-the-Time, and the Jamat’s historic commitment to the notion of a common humanity."
Ya Ali Madad.
All world religion have some sort of prayer and/or ritual to call out to God.
it is lowest level for human to ward upper journey in faith.
call ir any word puja ,saalat ,namaz ,dua. aarti etc.
theyall are reciting of 'xyz' and certain posturing of body while saying.
why go go gaga and dance about it what one does is superior or not.
We ismailis can achieve towhid with just two words from ALI.
It is like which primary school. they call call it PT, PHYSICAL EDUCATION, sports etc for students daily for half hour each or twice a week.
What difference does it make what name those time is called who bends or turns more during that 30 minutes.
It is debates of moron n those bankrupt with Intellect.
One should talk on not how much physical activity is ordered in school but quality of syllabus n faculty to bring out best in children.
All these futile n useless debate ,what Dua we pray is our pooja ,saalat, namaz. prayer to God.it is given to us in current times n not locked into some 1400 years acts shown by Jibrael/bare footed Salman.
An act ordered by first person demonstrated by third person to second. person( even an educated wise judge may get amused on it) for lock,stock n barrel to follow on it.
. There is no Ayat of what precise physical act it should be.One can also pray in lying down position.
it amuses to see educated person bringing it again again on those words. ,to become a doctor and engineer nursery rhymes poem question does not come in exam papers.
Every Ismaili at haqiqat level has reached 'taqwa' status for forward goal of tawhid as directed/mentioned openly in our constitution.
Even in Quran the reward of prayers done sincerely with clean heart n intent is 'taqwa' not the word heaven,bliss or tawhid is used for them.
Dua,namaz,salat words are interlinked words coming from different language origins like arabic, persian, urdu.
What ALI want is there to see in our J.K.
All ACTS OF PRAYERS are primary needs n obligation to bring discipline ,fear n love of god.that what is said again again in those prayer times.
The words of meditation is 1000 times more powerful than muttering
of any religion prayer content.
I once again say that low level(sharia) debates is clash not of ignorance but of an insane and bankrupt mind.
Ismailis are almost out of sharia n racing toward haqiqat n marifat.
Admin should have one cry baby/baba section in forum of bending,turning
n twisting contents for amusement for generations to come.
All world religion have some sort of prayer and/or ritual to call out to God.
it is lowest level for human to ward upper journey in faith.
call ir any word puja ,saalat ,namaz ,dua. aarti etc.
theyall are reciting of 'xyz' and certain posturing of body while saying.
why go go gaga and dance about it what one does is superior or not.
We ismailis can achieve towhid with just two words from ALI.
It is like which primary school. they call call it PT, PHYSICAL EDUCATION, sports etc for students daily for half hour each or twice a week.
What difference does it make what name those time is called who bends or turns more during that 30 minutes.
It is debates of moron n those bankrupt with Intellect.
One should talk on not how much physical activity is ordered in school but quality of syllabus n faculty to bring out best in children.
All these futile n useless debate ,what Dua we pray is our pooja ,saalat, namaz. prayer to God.it is given to us in current times n not locked into some 1400 years acts shown by Jibrael/bare footed Salman.
An act ordered by first person demonstrated by third person to second. person( even an educated wise judge may get amused on it) for lock,stock n barrel to follow on it.
. There is no Ayat of what precise physical act it should be.One can also pray in lying down position.
it amuses to see educated person bringing it again again on those words. ,to become a doctor and engineer nursery rhymes poem question does not come in exam papers.
Every Ismaili at haqiqat level has reached 'taqwa' status for forward goal of tawhid as directed/mentioned openly in our constitution.
Even in Quran the reward of prayers done sincerely with clean heart n intent is 'taqwa' not the word heaven,bliss or tawhid is used for them.
Dua,namaz,salat words are interlinked words coming from different language origins like arabic, persian, urdu.
What ALI want is there to see in our J.K.
All ACTS OF PRAYERS are primary needs n obligation to bring discipline ,fear n love of god.that what is said again again in those prayer times.
The words of meditation is 1000 times more powerful than muttering
of any religion prayer content.
I once again say that low level(sharia) debates is clash not of ignorance but of an insane and bankrupt mind.
Ismailis are almost out of sharia n racing toward haqiqat n marifat.
Admin should have one cry baby/baba section in forum of bending,turning
n twisting contents for amusement for generations to come.
Agreednuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad.
All these futile n useless debate ,what Dua we pray is our pooja ,saalat, namaz. prayer to God.it is given to us in current times n not locked into some 1400 years acts shown by Jibrael/bare footed Salman.
An act ordered by first person demonstrated by third person to second. person( even an educated wise judge may get amused on it) for lock,stock n barrel to follow on it.
Even in Quran the reward of prayers done sincerely with clean heart n intent is 'taqwa' not the word heaven,bliss or tawhid is used for them.
Dua,namaz,salat words are interlinked words coming from different language origins like arabic, persian, urdu.
What ALI want is there to see in our J.K.
All ACTS OF PRAYERS are primary needs n obligation to bring discipline ,fear n love of god.that what is said again again in those prayer times.
.
Dear Fayazfayaz006 wrote: If an ismaili feels obliged to offer prayer 5 times a day, why not use the dua 5 times a day. Why the need to offer namaz of someone else's Tariqa. Is the ismaili in doubt that dua given to him by the Noor of God is insufficient? You see here lies the issue. For the Ismaili the Imam of the time holds the authority of giving the Prescribed Prayers.
Therefore saying namaz means one is no longer acknowledging the Imam and therefore the Noor of God in their prayers. At which point you must ask is the person an ismaili any more?
First, I don't believe offering Dua or Namaz should be imposed. In other words, one must not feel obliged to offer either Du'a or Namaz. Because, as soon as compulsion enters the equation, the value and essence of supplication is voided. [Of course we are talking about the real intention of the prayer, not the ones who imitate or simply offer prayers for the sake of offering].
Having said that, do you seriously believe that Imam will forbid murids from offers traditional Namaz besides Du'a? That's why I asked you a question before, if there was any Farmaan of the Imam that forbids murids from offering traditional Namaz, which you haven't replied yet.
If you look historically, during Fatimid, pre-Famtimid and during the life time of the prophet, Ismailis were praying [offering Namaz]. So, traditional Namaz doesn't belong to one tariqa, but it's a common denominator for all branches of Islam; same way as a mosque is. But JK and Du'a, for example are specific to our tariqa. same way as khaneqa and certain rituals that sufi orders may have. But if you believe that by offering traditional namaz, one becomes non-ismaili, that's where I'd like to differ. However, I totally agree with you that matters of religion is prescribed by the Imam-e-Zaman and as far as I am aware, there's no such farmaan of the Imam to forbid murids from offering Namaz. So, should the Imam-e-Zaman make a Farmaan to forbid murids from offering traditional namaz, then you would have had a point.
There is a Farman though from Sultan Muhammad Shah saying that IF we attend Namaz in a a masjid, we should lead the Namaz. I do not have it handy but if someone has it, please post it here, it is a request.
Anf then, please lets come back to the tread which is NOT Namaz and Dua.
Namaz and Dua should be discussed on the following thread:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 5351#45351
Anf then, please lets come back to the tread which is NOT Namaz and Dua.
Namaz and Dua should be discussed on the following thread:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 5351#45351