ROHANI ROSHNI,An understanding.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:21 am

Some peoples knows that Imamat was not started with H. Ali but it was there before even H. Ali ( before H. Ali imamat was in H. Abu Talib and before Abu Talib imamat was in H. Abu Mutaalib and so on) but many Ismailis also believes that Imamat was started after prophet Mohammed (pbuh) death.

tret · Post by **tret** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:32 pm

agakhani wrote:Some peoples knows that Imamat was not started with H. Ali but it was there before even H. Ali ( before H. Ali imamat was in H. Abu Talib and before Abu Talib imamat was in H. Abu Mutaalib and so on) but many Ismailis also believes that Imamat was started after prophet Mohammed (pbuh) death.

Like I said, there was Natiq and Asas, which equates The Prophet (Mohammad) and Imam Ali; as I gave an example of H Musa and Haroon (His Wasi). Institution of Imamat began *officially* during H ALI!

Why it is important that Zuryah of Imamat MUST continue through linear descendant from Prophet Muhammad and Mawla ALI?

There could be great men who does great service to the humanity especially to their people, like Gandhi, Khumaini and many more as history has witnessed; now can we start claiming that they were Imamas?

I know that our shia twelvers were claiming that khumaini was the Imam, but we all know that he was NOT!!! he was simply a *great* person who helped the people of his region, is all!!

We can compare Asas with Imam and, which is the closest correlation, and they were certainly acting as guides; but I don't think we can claim they were IMAMs. We recite everyday the names of IMAMs, which start from Mauwla ALI up to MHI.

Now, if you can kindly back up your point with some credible sources, it'll be appreciated!

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:36 am

What happened to "ROHANI ROSHNEE"?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:54 am

We recite everyday the names of IMAMs, which start from Mauwla ALI up to MHI.

Don't you know that we Ismailis (Indo-Pak Subcontinents Ismailis used to recite 48 Imams names and along with 77 'PATRA" (names of those Imams before H. Ali) before 1955 in our old du'a!!??
Not only this but they continued reciting those names more then 550 years!!

Don't you know that our current imam M.Karim(s.a.) mentioned many times in his farmans that our tradition and Imamat is not 14 hundred years old only but
but it is 19 hundred old!!?? and even more! does not it prove that Imamat was their before? ask this to your self.

tret · Post by **tret** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:08 pm

agakhani wrote: Don't you know that we Ismailis (Indo-Pak Subcontinents Ismailis used to recite 48 Imams names and along with 77 'PATRA" (names of those Imams before H. Ali) before 1955 in our old du'a!!??
Not only this but they continued reciting those names more then 550 years!!

No I don't! Then, what about other ismailies [other than indo-pak subcontinent], did they also recite 77 patra too? Does it occur to you that it was only specific to indo-pak community?

And about Imamat being before H ALI, please reference the Farman (Date and place), or send me a message.

tret · Post by **tret** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:36 pm

Admin wrote:The institution of Imamate did not begin when the Naboowat ended. In fact the Prophet 9PBUH) did not appoint Hazrat Ali as Imam, he pointed out that Hazrat ali is the Imam.

Aren't they both symmetric?

This is from MHI speech in Ottawa.

" But others believed that the Prophet had designated his cousin and son-in-law, Ali, as his successor."

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:32 pm

tret wrote:
Admin wrote:The institution of Imamate did not begin when the Naboowat ended. In fact the Prophet 9PBUH) did not appoint Hazrat Ali as Imam, he pointed out that Hazrat ali is the Imam.
Aren't they both symmetric?

This is from MHI speech in Ottawa.

" But others believed that the Prophet had designated his cousin and son-in-law, Ali, as his successor."

"Others believed that the Prophet had designated Ali as successor"

It does not mean that the Imam believes the Prophet appointed Ali.

The Prophet "proclaimed" Ali as Imam.

005:067 O Messenger, deliver that which has been sent down to you from your Lord; for if you do not, then you have not delivered His Message. God will protect you from men. God guides not the people of the unbelievers.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:13 pm

Tret,
Sure I will give you date and places wher MHI addresed about imamat but I will not post entire farmans here as per my own policy give me little time for that. Thanks for your interest in this matter.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:26 pm

Zznoor,
Nothing happened to Ruhani Roshni but we are all waiting for your another lies and weired thinking from you, so hurry up and put your trash thinking here!.

tret · Post by **tret** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:06 pm

a_27826 wrote:
tret wrote:
Admin wrote:The institution of Imamate did not begin when the Naboowat ended. In fact the Prophet 9PBUH) did not appoint Hazrat Ali as Imam, he pointed out that Hazrat ali is the Imam.
Aren't they both symmetric?

This is from MHI speech in Ottawa.

" But others believed that the Prophet had designated his cousin and son-in-law, Ali, as his successor."
"Others believed that the Prophet had designated Ali as successor"

It does not mean that the Imam believes the Prophet appointed Ali.

The Prophet "proclaimed" Ali as Imam.

005:067 O Messenger, deliver that which has been sent down to you from your Lord; for if you do not, then you have not delivered His Message. God will protect you from men. God guides not the people of the unbelievers.

Please read my previous post. It is the concept of Asas which is the same as Imamat, not necessarily Imamat itself. Now we can't say Imam Haroon.

Imam is the one who's son (or any male dwcendent) is Imam.

Post by **Admin** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:24 pm

We can definitively say Imam Aaroon. Please read the article on the topic here:

http://www.ismaili.net/drupal5/node/27952

There is another link with interesting comments:

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/205 ... s-progeny/

Also on the same topic about the Imamat in the time of Hazrat Ibrahim

http://www.ismaili.net/drupal5/node/28568

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:54 pm

tret wrote:It is the concept of Asas which is the same as Imamat, not necessarily Imamat itself.

Imam is the one who's son (or any male decendent) is Imam.

Can you elaborate ?

I always thought Asas = Foundation.

How is concept of Asas is the same as the concept of Imamate ?

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:45 am

a_27826 wrote:
tret wrote:It is the concept of Asas which is the same as Imamat, not necessarily Imamat itself.

Imam is the one who's son (or any male decendent) is Imam.
Can you elaborate ?

I always thought Asas = Foundation.

How is concept of Asas is the same as the concept of Imamate ?

Literal translation of Asas means Foundation alright.

Natiq = Pir or Hujjat
Asas = Imam

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:24 pm

The above meanings are in Persian language?

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:20 pm

agakhani wrote:The above meanings are in Persian language?

Yes they are.

But most of terminologies are taken from either Persian, Arabic or Gujurati languages. For example Pir is a Persian word. Should we translate it in English, it loses it's context and value. Another example "Khana-abaadan" is a Persian word/expression, and should we translate it in English (or other language) it loses it's value and context.

Natiq = literally means Someone who speaks (Pirs are the best persons to preach) there's even an expression that to "Listen [hear] word from Pir"

Asas = Literally means Base/Foundation (Which is comparable to Imam

Hujjat = Proof

Dai = Someone who performs Da'wa [Da'wat]

Now, if we try to use the translated version of these words, it kind of sounds weird, don't you think?

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:50 pm

Ya Ali Madad.
A Imam is something that is seen and physically measurable in terms
of appearance of years and phases.(1-49).

A Formal/SEEN and continuing Imams lineage stared with Hazrat Ali.

Imamat is something which is God itself from the time of creation.

One must try to search from 'nanowisdom website'.

In a speech MHI mentioned that Imamat is beyond
comprehension/thinking of a human mind.In other words he mentioned it to be same as GOD/Allah.
Please anyone can reprint that exact line.

At Tariqat level one can only see/agree all physical lineage but cannot be blessed of haqiqat That every Abrahamic Prophets had Zahir/Baatin Imam then and Imam in Zahir/baatin has to there on Earth to survive even for a second.
.
Then How did the Earth survive before Hazrat Ali without any Imam?
Which Hadith or Kalam mention that?

tret · Post by **tret** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:50 pm

nuseri wrote:In a speech MHI mentioned that Imamat is beyond
comprehension/thinking of a human mind.In other words he mentioned it to be same as GOD/Allah.

Is it beyond your comprehension?

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:13 pm

tret wrote:
nuseri wrote:In a speech MHI mentioned that Imamat is beyond
comprehension/thinking of a human mind.In other words he mentioned it to be same as GOD/Allah.
Is it beyond your comprehension?

its quite frustrating.

Can't admin put restrictions on users who quote from Quran, Imam and the Prophets without references ?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:00 am

Tret,
Sure I will give you date and places wher MHI addresed about imamat but I will not post entire farmans here as per my own policy give me little time for that. Thanks for your interest in this matter.

Hers below is the place and date when those farmans delivered I.E Imamat and Ismaili tradition is 1900 hundreds old even more than that;-
1, FARMAN # 78
DATE:- 9/7/ 1963
PLACE:- NAIROBI

2, FARMAN # 82
DATE:- 9/9/1963
PLACEl) LIOPOLDWILLE

tret · Post by **tret** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:50 pm

agakhani wrote:
Tret,
Sure I will give you date and places wher MHI addresed about imamat but I will not post entire farmans here as per my own policy give me little time for that. Thanks for your interest in this matter.
Hers below is the place and date when those farmans delivered I.E Imamat and Ismaili tradition is 1900 hundreds old even more than that;-
1, FARMAN # 78
DATE:- 9/7/ 1963
PLACE:- NAIROBI

2, FARMAN # 82
DATE:- 9/9/1963
PLACEl) LIOPOLDWILLE

Thank you.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:19 pm

a_27826,

You can not compare everyone with some one, as long as I concern I always quote the references if any readers ask for that whether it is from ginans, quran and farmans or any Shia/Sunny author books.
for imams farman I only give date and place, as I did above because of my personal reasons.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:43 am

nuseri wrote: At Tariqat level one can only see/agree all physical lineage but cannot be blessed of haqiqat That every Abrahamic Prophets had Zahir/Baatin Imam then and Imam in Zahir/baatin has to there on Earth to survive even for a second.
.
Then How did the Earth survive before Hazrat Ali without any Imam?
Which Hadith or Kalam mention that?

I am sure you believe in spiritual evolution of human that in each cycle (era) they would become more evolved spiritually and become more aware. This is part of human evolution. I am sure the concept of Imamat has been there (Role of Imam (Asas/Prophets) to guide human spiritually to sirat-ul-mustaqim (distinguish right from wrong, haq from batil) and temporally for the betterment of humans as exactly what our MHI does in today's day and age).

Imamat institution has been formalized at Imam Ali, but the concept was there (to guide human) even before that. It might have not been called Imams before Maula Ali, though. It was Asas, which I said comparable to Imamat.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:24 pm

So long I am respectful of your religion and MHI, why you guys are clamor ing for my head?

Please read above comments of ZZNoor
and nowe read what she wrote about our beloved MHI on March 27, 2014? she is telling MHI as 'ADIAL TATTO" " Shame to you telling something one day not not believing the other day

"Aga Khan (your Ali-Allah) who announced some 5 years ago that he was going to formulate uniform Namaaz for his Murids. Adial Tattoo like you must be reason for no progress".

Please read what I wrote about her on her above comments

"So long I am respectful of your religion and MHI, why you guys are clamor ing for my head?"

ACHHA! SO CHUHE KHA MARKAR BILLI HAJ PE CHALI!!??

No, you are not and you were not ever respectful to Ismaili religion and towards our beloved MHI, don't forget that I read your many posts since you joined in this website and I have collected many harsh words, sentences and harsh comments on our religion and MHI, let me give you just one example here for other readers ZZNoor has told and considered Ismailis as a " KAFIROON" many times in past !!

So, please do not take another easy shelter of your white lies, I can put your disrespectful sentences here as many as you want but why don't you ask this question to your self? and he will give you true answer rather then adding another lie here?

so brothers she does not follows what she is own saying.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:58 pm

To Agakhani:Ya Ali Madad.
She is without doubt a hard core Wahabi with Khoja traditions info supplied by an ex Ismali to her from her handlers.

She hates Ismaili religion to the core.

She may have indifferent opinion for MHI.

In the particular statement,as I stand for truth and not personality.
there is a full stop before that word 'Adial tattu" (stubborn pony) in a new line hinting the above to me or other debating that subject of candle no 2.
As I read and observe that particular statement it is not use for MHI but for the forum members debating in opposition to her.

It does mean I am siding her,As a matter of fact I abuse her in the most nasty sense.

By the way you are a PhD.It is great.In which field or subject you have earned it.

Your protest to Admin may go in vain as Admin loves and has high regards of Ismaili and Imam dislikers.
In reality the 'Adial Tattu' (stubborn pony) is Admin from my ponit of view.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:32 am

In reality the 'Adial Tattu' (stubborn pony) is Admin from my ponit of view.

Ha.Ha.Ha

Admin is great who gives lots of time in this websites without pay and you are also right about her, she is not telling MHI as stubborn pony, sorry sister Noor.

FYI:- I do not read all post carefully or give more time,( I have to read and write in absence of Boss and there is no fixed time for him to come) let me give you quick example: about your above post which I finished it within 10 seconds ( no boasting or lie) so, there is always remains some room for me to misunderstand. One thing which I have which other participants doesn't , which is I always accept my mistake and apologize but some "Addial Tatoo" in this website they are not!!!

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:06 pm

By the way I hold " PHD" digree ON "TO CORRECT THOSE PEOPLES WHO ARE ADIAL TATTOS" you know whom I talking about!?

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:12 pm

By the way I hold " PHD" digree ON "TO CORRECT THOSE PEOPLES WHO ARE ADIAL TATTOS" you know whom I talking about!?

Good one agakhani bhai

tret · Post by **tret** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:26 pm

agakhani wrote:By the way I hold " PHD" digree ON "TO CORRECT THOSE PEOPLES WHO ARE ADIAL TATTOS" you know whom I talking about!?

I don't know if it's an inside joke or something, but if it's not, then the following is my question:

Do you also hold the position as nuseri and ShamsB about the belobed MHI? they directly and easily say that MHI is Allah. Do you?

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:58 pm

tret wrote:
agakhani wrote:By the way I hold " PHD" digree ON "TO CORRECT THOSE PEOPLES WHO ARE ADIAL TATTOS" you know whom I talking about!?

I don't know if it's an inside joke or something, but if it's not, then the following is my question:

Do you also hold the position as nuseri and ShamsB about the belobed MHI? they directly and easily say that MHI is Allah. Do you?

Tret,

Can you tell me in layman's terms what's the difference between "Mazhar of Allah" and "Allah" without utilizing ideas of Neoplatonism.

If its not the same thing, then what is the difference ?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:29 am

Do you also hold the position as nuseri and ShamsB about the belobed MHI? they directly and easily say that MHI is Allah. Do you?

Off course Tret Bhaijan,

I am not hesitating to say one more time here for your satisfaction that Ali is Allah for me.

BTW:- If you have read my previous posts then you would not have to ask this question again, because in my previous post I wrote many times that "H. Ali is Allah" for me, but that is ok.