ROHANI ROSHNI,An understanding.

[tret]

Do you also hold the position as nuseri and ShamsB about the belobed MHI? they directly and easily say that MHI is Allah. Do you?

Off course Tret Bhaijan,

I am not hesitating to say one more time here for your satisfaction that Ali is Allah for me.

BTW:- If you have read my previous posts then you would not have to ask this question again, because in my previous post I wrote many times that "H. Ali is Allah" for me, but that is ok.

I have replied to one of the threads a while back, you have missed it. I am simply quoting what I have already said.

MHI in 1975 approved a resolution at a Paris Conference of Ismaili leadership. Two major resolutions came from this Conference.

The first was that the concept of God in the Ismaili Tariqah should be taught with emphasis on the absolute transcendence of God aligned with Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. As such, God is not a *person* or a *personal being* in Ismaili thought.

In the history of Isma'ili thought, the Personal aspect of God [known as the Divine Names and Attributes] were seen as belonging not to God's Essence but to a secondary level of reality i.e. Universal Intellect [Nur of Imamat].


The second resolution was that the Imam is to be explained as the "mazhar" of God and the relationship between God and the Imam to be related to varying levels of inspiration and communication between God and man.

So when MHI makes the distinction between God and Imam, I really think we should reflect on it and follow, don't you think?

[agakhani]

Good one agakhani bhai

Brother where are you? I do not see your informative posts now a days which you used to post almost everyday !? I have learned a lot from you Shiraz.

By the way I was in Sugar Land in my daughter wedding, I was there almost week and Nikah was performed in Principal Jamat Khana, believe or not I want to meet you but because of the wedding I was real busy.

[tret]

By the way I hold " PHD" digree ON "TO CORRECT THOSE PEOPLES WHO ARE ADIAL TATTOS" you know whom I talking about!?

I don't know if it's an inside joke or something, but if it's not, then the following is my question:

Do you also hold the position as nuseri and ShamsB about the belobed MHI? they directly and easily say that MHI is Allah. Do you?

Tret,

Can you tell me in layman's terms what's the difference between "Mazhar of Allah" and "Allah" without utilizing ideas of Neoplatonism.

If its not the same thing, then what is the difference ?

I am glad you asked the question; most participant don't seem to be interested in these type of topics or simply shy away. icon_smile.gif

I think we can use the following analogy, in a very simplistic term.

electricity [light] can be manifested or [seen] through a light-bulb. Light-bulb is the place where electricity is manifested and can be seen by an observer. Now it won't be accurate to say light-bulb is electricity. In this example, light-bulb is a medium through which electricity is manifested and can be observed/seen/understood. On the other hand, without light-bulb there's no way for humans to see/observe electricity [light].

Now all the attributes of Allah [most merciful, all knowing, and all other names of Allah] in fact belongs to human aspect of Allah, which is Nur of Imamat. Imam of the time is like a crystal clear mirror without any dust or rust, reflecting all those attributes.

According to Ismailie Doctrine, human attributes can not be attributed to Allah Himself. i.e. Allah does not exist and also Allah does not not-exist. Or Allah is not kind and Allah is not not-kind. So any attribute that we think, like most merciful, all knowing, and etc belong to the secondary reality [Universal intellect, First intellect, etc], which is the Nur of Imamat.

[ShamsB]

Do you also hold the position as nuseri and ShamsB about the belobed MHI? they directly and easily say that MHI is Allah. Do you?

Off course Tret Bhaijan,

I am not hesitating to say one more time here for your satisfaction that Ali is Allah for me.

BTW:- If you have read my previous posts then you would not have to ask this question again, because in my previous post I wrote many times that "H. Ali is Allah" for me, but that is ok.

I have replied to one of the threads a while back, you have missed it. I am simply quoting what I have already said.

MHI in 1975 approved a resolution at a Paris Conference of Ismaili leadership. Two major resolutions came from this Conference.

The first was that the concept of God in the Ismaili Tariqah should be taught with emphasis on the absolute transcendence of God aligned with Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. As such, God is not a *person* or a *personal being* in Ismaili thought.

In the history of Isma'ili thought, the Personal aspect of God [known as the Divine Names and Attributes] were seen as belonging not to God's Essence but to a secondary level of reality i.e. Universal Intellect [Nur of Imamat].


The second resolution was that the Imam is to be explained as the "mazhar" of God and the relationship between God and the Imam to be related to varying levels of inspiration and communication between God and man.

So when MHI makes the distinction between God and Imam, I really think we should reflect on it and follow, don't you think?

Keep in mind that there are 2 stations of the Imam - Imam Al Mustawda and Imam al Mustaqir - and Hazar Imam holds both offices.

Once again - it is all about one's understanding - we all have our own understanding and our own faith.

Shams

[tret]

Off course Tret Bhaijan,

I am not hesitating to say one more time here for your satisfaction that Ali is Allah for me.

BTW:- If you have read my previous posts then you would not have to ask this question again, because in my previous post I wrote many times that "H. Ali is Allah" for me, but that is ok.

I have replied to one of the threads a while back, you have missed it. I am simply quoting what I have already said.

MHI in 1975 approved a resolution at a Paris Conference of Ismaili leadership. Two major resolutions came from this Conference.

The first was that the concept of God in the Ismaili Tariqah should be taught with emphasis on the absolute transcendence of God aligned with Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. As such, God is not a *person* or a *personal being* in Ismaili thought.

In the history of Isma'ili thought, the Personal aspect of God [known as the Divine Names and Attributes] were seen as belonging not to God's Essence but to a secondary level of reality i.e. Universal Intellect [Nur of Imamat].


The second resolution was that the Imam is to be explained as the "mazhar" of God and the relationship between God and the Imam to be related to varying levels of inspiration and communication between God and man.

So when MHI makes the distinction between God and Imam, I really think we should reflect on it and follow, don't you think?

Keep in mind that there are 2 stations of the Imam - Imam Al Mustawda and Imam al Mustaqir - and Hazar Imam holds both offices.

Once again - it is all about one's understanding - we all have our own understanding and our own faith.

Shams

The question posed is not actually about two station of Imam (Shah and Pir), it's rather the relation between Allah tahalaa and the Imam (Shah). I 100% agree that it's about one's understanding and the Imams position is just that to inspire humans at varying level to connect to God. I just wanted us to reflect on what has been approved by MHI.

[agakhani]

Tret,
You have raised a solid question but let me read Paris conference first and then after will post my comments, meanwhile I can only say that my answers are same like brother ShamsB has given above!.

[zznoor]

without light-bulb there's no way for humans to see/observe electricity [light].

How about touching live wire?

[tret]

without light-bulb there's no way for humans to see/observe electricity [light].

How about touching live wire?

You are missing the point. The point is not about touching the wire to feel the electricity; the point I was making is to make the distinction of Mazhar of Allah and Allah Himself.

[tret]

I can only say that my answers are same like brother ShamsB has given above!.

So basically you are saying that regardless of what MHI has approved, you still hold to what you belief?

If that's the case, then why claiming that we have present Imam and we follow His Farameen and Amr?

[zznoor]

tret
You are missing the point. The point is not about touching the wire to feel the electricity; the point I was making is to make the distinction of Mazhar of Allah and Allah Himself.

Any mention of Allah and Imam being his Mazhar?

Quote Sura:Aya
I will try to understand meaning.

[tret]

tret
You are missing the point. The point is not about touching the wire to feel the electricity; the point I was making is to make the distinction of Mazhar of Allah and Allah Himself.

Any mention of Allah and Imam being his Mazhar?

Quote Sura:Aya
I will try to understand meaning.

First of all, thanks for chiming in and showing interest.
Second, since you are not an Ismailie, and don't believe in the concept of Imamiah, it would be rather, not challenging but impossible to explain to you the importance of Imam of the time. So, question of explaining Mazhar of Allah, is really must be a secondary step.

Last but not least, I have been observing the discussion going on between yourself and other participants about "Imam-e-Mubeen", where it's clearly mentioned in the Qur'an.

Like I said once, it's all about how we perceive. If we are not ready to change our perception, then we limit our vision and understanding to what we already know.

[zznoor]

Last but not least, I have been observing the discussion going on between yourself and other participants about "Imam-e-Mubeen", where it's clearly mentioned in the Qur'an.

Please post Aya and translation in that thread
JAK

[tret]

Last but not least, I have been observing the discussion going on between yourself and other participants about "Imam-e-Mubeen", where it's clearly mentioned in the Qur'an.

Please post Aya and translation in that thread
JAK

Well, you were actively participating in those discussions, so I am really surprised that you are asking me for reference?

I really don't want to dig into your conversation with other participants to quote what you have said, or what other participant have said. You should know your position and stand better on the concept of Imamat and Imam-e-Mubeen.

I am pretty sure you can find references in the Qur'an about Imam-e-Mubeen, and brother Shams, Shiraz and agakhani will be more than glad to provide you references or you can simply go back in time and observe your participation with other participants.

[tret]

Last but not least, I have been observing the discussion going on between yourself and other participants about "Imam-e-Mubeen", where it's clearly mentioned in the Qur'an.

Please post Aya and translation in that thread
JAK

Well, you were actively participating in those discussions, so I am really surprised that you are asking me for reference?

I really don't want to dig into your conversation with other participants to quote what you have said, or what other participant have said. You should know your position and stand better on the concept of Imamat and Imam-e-Mubeen.


I am pretty sure you can find references in the Qur'an about Imam-e-Mubeen, and brother Shams, Shiraz and agakhani will be more than glad to provide you references or you can simply go back in time and observe your participation with other participants.

and please, I don't want to derail the conversation to somewhere else. If you are interested in discussing this topic, kindly open another thread, and I would be glad to participate, if i can add any value.

[ShamsB]

Last but not least, I have been observing the discussion going on between yourself and other participants about "Imam-e-Mubeen", where it's clearly mentioned in the Qur'an.

Please post Aya and translation in that thread
JAK

Well, you were actively participating in those discussions, so I am really surprised that you are asking me for reference?

I really don't want to dig into your conversation with other participants to quote what you have said, or what other participant have said. You should know your position and stand better on the concept of Imamat and Imam-e-Mubeen.


I am pretty sure you can find references in the Qur'an about Imam-e-Mubeen, and brother Shams, Shiraz and agakhani will be more than glad to provide you references or you can simply go back in time and observe your participation with other participants.

and please, I don't want to derail the conversation to somewhere else. If you are interested in discussing this topic, kindly open another thread, and I would be glad to participate, if i can add any value.

Good Point Tret - it seems that any discussion that zznoor enters into - it quickly turns into a discussion on the whole question of Imam and the authority and practices of the Ismailies - as being unislamic...

What i've discovered over time - and made apparent is that the islam that zznoor follows - isn't based on the Quran at all - she copies and pastes verses of the Quran - that are barely relevant to the topic - and then posts interpretations that she deems valid - and these interpretations are wide and varied - some substantiated = some wild and crazy...

I don't think posting any more verses from the Quran will make a difference because whilst we read the same Quran, the interpretations are going to be different...
and whilst we're open to other interpretations - it seems like zznoor is keen on establishing her interpretation - as varied and different as it maybe from day to day and as shaky it's theological foundations maybe - as the only correct one.

It has become apparent to me - that zznoor has been blindly spouting off/copying and pasting without realizing that most of what she's pasting is other individuals' interpretation of what the Prophet is to have said - or what the Quran is supposed to say.

In the other discussion - she's posting a hadith of the prophet with Chapter and Verses - making it seem like the prophet quoted that chapter and verse- which couldn't have been possible as the Quran wasn't compiled in it's current form until after the death of the prophet. Some of those verses probably weren't revealed at the time the hadith is said to have occurred.

Shams

[zznoor]

In the other discussion - she's posting a hadith of the prophet with Chapter and Verses - making it seem like the prophet quoted that chapter and verse- which couldn't have been possible as the Quran wasn't compiled in it's current form until after the death of the prophet. Some of those verses probably weren't revealed at the time the hadith is said to have occurred.

Read carefully, I have said I have inserted verse numbers for ignorants,
Just to make clear to them that all 5 principle are in Quran.
If there were 6, 7 or 70 things important innIslam he would have said it.

[ShamsB]

In the other discussion - she's posting a hadith of the prophet with Chapter and Verses - making it seem like the prophet quoted that chapter and verse- which couldn't have been possible as the Quran wasn't compiled in it's current form until after the death of the prophet. Some of those verses probably weren't revealed at the time the hadith is said to have occurred.

Read carefully, I have said I have inserted verse numbers for ignorants,
Just to make clear to them that all 5 principle are in Quran.
If there were 6, 7 or 70 things important innIslam he would have said it.

Nope - your interpretation.

Last I checked - you weren't a school of jurisprudence.
Same way you have your interpretation - i have mine and others have theirs.

Tell me - do you think that the wahabis or taliban's interpretation and practice is wrong or correct?

If wrong - then why aren't you correcting them?

and if correct...why aren't you following that?

I pointed out other flaws in your argument - namely that there were no specifics mentioned.

And you yourself have admitted that you accept that the prophet wasn't consistent in his prayers either.

Once again - i have proved that you don't follow the Quran - and I don't think you were aware of it.

Show me a verse in the Quran where Allah says - HERE ARE 5 PILLARS FOLLOW THEM.

Keep in mind - we aren't called Mohammedans - this isn't a faith of Mohammed.
But a Faith of GOD - we aren't based on what Mohammed THOUGHT - but what ALLAH SAID.

Shams

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
Any statement from a forum/conference or a speech is not Farman
of MHI status as Imam but also at the same time his status in the eyes of the world as Agakhan,Islamic leader, world statesman.
In Paris conference suggestion was by members as not to face any legal issues at Tariqa platform from outsiders.

A CONCEPT (a floating idea presented on paper)and beyond that is the level of conviction.
Mazar is exact reflection of the original.
there CANNOT BE any reflection if original not there.
REFLECTION CAN of any seen any not unseen SHAPE,OBJECT OR FIGURE.
PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES of Allah are in many Ayats which I have posted earlier.
So what is termed as reflection (mazhar ) is the original (at Haqiqat) ONLY.
Reflection(mazhar) of Allah can be Allah ONLY and not anybody else.


Your reflection of yourself you see in mirror is YOU only n not third person
or unseen ghost of yours.
All this electric theory is humbug and expressing shallow conviction.

Here is a Farman od Imam AGA Ali Shah (47 TH IMAM)made on 10th mohharam.year in not mentioned.(tranlsation follows)
JE TAME HUMNA DUA PADIYA TE DUA NAMAAZ KARTA UTTAM CHE.
TENI ANDAR TAMO JAMAT VICHAR KARTA HASHO AMME DUA PADEYE

CHE ANE DHANI SALAMAT DATAR DUA PADTA NATHI.FARMAYU JE DUA TAMO
PADO CHO TEMA ALI ALLAH BOLIYA ANE HAZAR IMAM NU NAAM LO CHO.

TE HAZAR IMAM HU CHU.ANE ALI ALLAH KAHO CHO TE ALI THI ALLAH ANE ALLAH EJ ALI CHE.TO PACHI HU SIJDO KANE KARU?ANE SIJDO KARU TO TO MANE SHU FAYDO THAYE?

Translation with best of my ability.

THE DUA YOU ALL PRAYING NOW IS SUPERIOR THAN NAMAZ.iN PRAYING DUA YOU MUST BE WONDERING THAT YOU ALL NEED TO PARAY DUA BUT
YOUR HARAZ IMAM DOES NOT PRAY DUA.FARMAN IS THE DUA YOU SAY IN THAT YOU TAKE THE NAME OF ALI ALLAH AND HAZAR IMAM. THAT hAZAR IAM IS ME. AND WHEN YOU SAY ALLI ALLAH'' IT IS FROM ALI COMES ALLAH AND ALLAH THAT IS ONLY ALI.THEN TO WHOM SHOULD I BOW DOWN TO? IF I BOW DOWN THEN WHAT BENEFIT WILL COME TO ME?

For an Ismaili the farman is an ABSOLUTE order , how much faith one has in Imam It is his/her level of Faith.
My convictionof ALI+LAH+ ALLAH IS VALIDATED BY THIS FARMAN.
A concept papers prepared by leaders( NOT IMAM) to pacify various forces and also avoid legal issues faced by Imamat coined the word to Mazhar of Allah
An identity of a reflection to avoid nasty questions at TARIQAT LEVEL n
avoid any legality on it.
if someone asks the same leaders what is their conviction in private
it will different to very concept papers they themselves had prepared
( remember the word Taqiya is at Tariqat level WORD.it does NOT EXIST AT HAQIQAT LEVEL).
The statement of most of them will of two word of that of majority of Haqiqati members of the forum.

I assume the two PhD's owe me a cup of coffee.

I will sign off with:
AHMED WO JO MARD HAI JO CHARD KAR MARE MAIDAN RE.
AHMED ALI ALI BOLIYA,PECHE HONI HOI SO HOI RE.

[tret]

To nuseri:

I see few flaws in your observation and the way you analyze this. Apparently it's really important for us as Jama'at to reflect on what MHI wants from us.

1) I personally believe that at this day and age, every speech, interview of MHI that has been given, can be considered as Farmaan, for everyone can see truth, guidance and reality! It's purely up to observer how to perceive MHI's guidance. Take examples of addressing parliament of Canada in Feb 2014. Lecture at Brown's university. Walk the Talk with Aga Khan at NDTV. Interview at CBC with Peter's Mansbridge. You can see truth and guidance in all MHI's speeches and interview. So, the way I see it these are Farmeen of MHI to the entire humanity.

2) The way you are putting it, is that leaders of ismailie making the resolution for MHI, which I can't accept [nor can any other ismailie]. I am really surprised how did you come to this conclusion that other ismailie leaders came with this resolution of 1975.

3) This resolution was approved by MHI. FYI, MHI enjoys full authority in the matters of faith and interpretation of faith according to Ismailie Tariqa. So, if something comes from MHI, then that's valid and current!!

4) We ismailies follow Present Imam. If any Farmaan of Present Imam contradicts any of previous Imam, then we as Ismailies must follow the Present Imam's Farmaan. Remember that faith is interpreted according to time and space. That does not invalidate previous Imam's interpretation; because interpretation of faith is directly related to time and space. Besides, the Farmaan you specified, it's context is really about the emphasis of Du'a and prayer.

5) Taqia has been practiced when Imamat office and Imams were persecuted and Ismailies lives were in danger. In this day and age, I really doubt that one's live is in danger to practice taqia, especially where most of our ismailie brothers live in the western society. I mean look at you, you openly and deliberately say Ali is Allah. Do you practice Taqia? If Taqia was the intent of MHI by, then you are not following Taqia and not following what MHI has asked us to do.

6) The resolution that came from 1975 conference, is address strictly to Ismailies and Ismailie Tariqa and not outside of Tariqa, for your information: Here's the quote again.

The first was that the concept of God in the Ismaili Tariqah should be taught with emphasis on the absolute transcendence of God aligned with Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. As such, God is not a *person* or a *personal being* in Ismaili thought.

7) Physical attribute of Allah mentioned in Qur'an is again referenced in the quote. Please re-read and re-read and reflect upon it to understand.

In the history of Isma'ili thought, the Personal aspect of God [known as the Divine Names and Attributes] were seen as belonging not to God's Essence but to a secondary level of reality i.e. Universal Intellect [Nur of Imamat].

Now coming back to interpretation of Mazhar: You say that reflection of you in the mirror is you. I challenge that! Reflection of you in the mirror is your reflection and NOT you!! You are on this side of the mirror, and what you see is your reflection! It sure looks like you, you can see yourself in the mirror, but it's not YOU! For most people it's convenient to say, yes it's me same like your analogy of glass half empty of half full or completely full. Most people conveniently say glass half-empty/half-full, but they fail to realize it's all the time full with water and air. similarly, it's very convenient for general population to say i see myself in the mirror, but what they fail to realize that it's not THEM who is reflected in the mirror, it's their REFLECTION.

[a_27826]

Now all the attributes of Allah [most merciful, all knowing, and all other names of Allah] in fact belongs to human aspect of Allah, which is Nur of Imamat. Imam of the time is like a crystal clear mirror without any dust or rust, reflecting all those attributes.

According to Ismailie Doctrine, human attributes can not be attributed to Allah Himself. i.e. Allah does not exist and also Allah does not not-exist. Or Allah is not kind and Allah is not not-kind. So any attribute that we think, like most merciful, all knowing, and etc belong to the secondary reality [Universal intellect, First intellect, etc], which is the Nur of Imamat.

So when Quran refers Allah as Most Merciful, does it mean its referring to the Imam (Mazhar Of Allah) ?

[tret]

Now all the attributes of Allah [most merciful, all knowing, and all other names of Allah] in fact belongs to human aspect of Allah, which is Nur of Imamat. Imam of the time is like a crystal clear mirror without any dust or rust, reflecting all those attributes.

According to Ismailie Doctrine, human attributes can not be attributed to Allah Himself. i.e. Allah does not exist and also Allah does not not-exist. Or Allah is not kind and Allah is not not-kind. So any attribute that we think, like most merciful, all knowing, and etc belong to the secondary reality [Universal intellect, First intellect, etc], which is the Nur of Imamat.

So when Quran refers Allah as Most Merciful, does it mean its referring to the Imam (Mazhar Of Allah) ?

I really believe so!! This is based on Ismailie Doctrine and religious framework Because, Nur of Imamat is the medium to inspire men and connect with God. Without Nur of Imamat, it would be impossible to understand God. By receiving knowledge of Taw'heed one can allow himself to reflect those attributes at varying levels at different intensity. And Imam of the time is at the highest level.
That's why any attribute that we can think of, only be given to personal, or personal aspect of God[Nur of Imamat], and NOT GOD HIMSELF.

[ShamsB]

Now all the attributes of Allah [most merciful, all knowing, and all other names of Allah] in fact belongs to human aspect of Allah, which is Nur of Imamat. Imam of the time is like a crystal clear mirror without any dust or rust, reflecting all those attributes.

According to Ismailie Doctrine, human attributes can not be attributed to Allah Himself. i.e. Allah does not exist and also Allah does not not-exist. Or Allah is not kind and Allah is not not-kind. So any attribute that we think, like most merciful, all knowing, and etc belong to the secondary reality [Universal intellect, First intellect, etc], which is the Nur of Imamat.

So when Quran refers Allah as Most Merciful, does it mean its referring to the Imam (Mazhar Of Allah) ?

I really believe so!! This is based on Ismailie Doctrine and religious framework Because, Nur of Imamat is the medium to inspire men and connect with God. Without Nur of Imamat, it would be impossible to understand God. By receiving knowledge of Taw'heed one can allow himself to reflect those attributes at varying levels at different intensity. And Imam of the time is at the highest level.
That's why any attribute that we can think of, only be given to personal, or personal aspect of God[Nur of Imamat], and NOT GOD HIMSELF.

so here's my take on it....

to each their own understanding; based upon where they stand in their faith and in their search.

This whole discussion reminds me of Nusayri and Hazrat Ali - where Hazrat Ali cut off Nusayri's head about 70x (someone correct me please)..where Nusayri kept on stating - Ali is Allah.

To me - what I believe is very personal to me - and can't be enforced upon others - call it my disillusion or hallucination - but I am content and happy in that understanding.

Tret - what you believe and accept works for you - and that is what you should believe.

Nuseri - what you believe and hold true - is true for you based upon where you are and your understanding....

In Hindi - there is a saying - one can't blame the fool for not understanding what you're trying to say - he has limited intelligence - this is beyond his capacities....

And that applies to all of us....

We all have our paths..our searches; all individual...and all of our intellects operate and function at different levels.

We can accept Al Hallaj being Ana Al Haq - but we're having a tough time accepting the Imam as the Haq?..seriously?

Shams

[tret]

So when Quran refers Allah as Most Merciful, does it mean its referring to the Imam (Mazhar Of Allah) ?

I really believe so!! This is based on Ismailie Doctrine and religious framework Because, Nur of Imamat is the medium to inspire men and connect with God. Without Nur of Imamat, it would be impossible to understand God. By receiving knowledge of Taw'heed one can allow himself to reflect those attributes at varying levels at different intensity. And Imam of the time is at the highest level.
That's why any attribute that we can think of, only be given to personal, or personal aspect of God[Nur of Imamat], and NOT GOD HIMSELF.

so here's my take on it....

to each their own understanding; based upon where they stand in their faith and in their search.

This whole discussion reminds me of Nusayri and Hazrat Ali - where Hazrat Ali cut off Nusayri's head about 70x (someone correct me please)..where Nusayri kept on stating - Ali is Allah.

To me - what I believe is very personal to me - and can't be enforced upon others - call it my disillusion or hallucination - but I am content and happy in that understanding.

Tret - what you believe and accept works for you - and that is what you should believe.

Nuseri - what you believe and hold true - is true for you based upon where you are and your understanding....

In Hindi - there is a saying - one can't blame the fool for not understanding what you're trying to say - he has limited intelligence - this is beyond his capacities....

And that applies to all of us....

We all have our paths..our searches; all individual...and all of our intellects operate and function at different levels.

We can accept Al Hallaj being Ana Al Haq - but we're having a tough time accepting the Imam as the Haq?..seriously?

Shams

I agree with you Shams brother, that everyone has their own level of understanding of what' the truth, and if one is intellectually and spiritually satisfied, then he feels peace and satisfaction. Trust me, I don't have any issue about this concept, even I am happy for our non-ismailie participant what they believe.

The point of the any discussion -- I believe -- to be constructive. And if I can learn even one letter or concept, then I am grateful for that. I am really not trying to have a discussion to prove someone wrong. If one can convince me, by all mean, I will be more than glad to take my hat off.

So, coming back to the discussion, please give me your reasoning about where you stand about the Imam and God, and I don't believe I am not illogical and can understand logical reasoning and explanation.

I guess, we can say I stop searching now, because I found IT, when we truly find the truth and I believe when that happens (lik Al Halaj) or any other great men in the past, i.e. Rumi, Shams Tabriz, Hafiz, etc.. then all of this would become irrelevant for us, and we won't thrive to participate in these types of debates.

[tret]

We can accept Al Hallaj being Ana Al Haq - but we're having a tough time accepting the Imam as the Haq?..seriously?

Shams

Let's not focus on other men's acts and statements to draw conclusion; instead focus on what MHI has said.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
tret what is your take on the farman of the Imam which is an order and haqiqat and and not absoultely approval of conference paper presented.
Ask any Ismaile what have greater value ,weight age n truth?

Intellect is blessed with more conviction of Imam and not just taking by his humanely appearance.
Can you name the Imams as you sound learned who have endorsed the Imaan of Nuseri and and gave Farman that Ismailis should be like him in Faith/Imaan?( are you ignoring all Farmans as an ismaile?

If have would been a leader then My stand be be same as other leaders
at tariqat level and worldly practical level.( conference)

1.Imamat institutions should be run smoothly in all countries.
2.Safety of Ismailis in unsafe zones of the world.
3. To avoid any legal implications of understanding of his status in the eyes of the world.
4.To counter forces working against the Imamat.

with all above real valid point ,A concept paper was approved.
by MHI at Tariqat level.
the word chosen by leader n approved was the next best possible word after ALI Allah.

ANY SPEECH, INTERVIEW OR MEMOIRS MADE BY MHI OR IMAM IS NOT A FARMAN
go and ask your mukhi any leader you trust for that answer.

FARMANS OF IMAM MOSTLY START WITH 'MY DEAR SPIRITUAL CHILDREN'

This is a recorded fact of farman greetingsand Imam does his legitimate signature on it.
the Baatin understanding of these four word without doubt make him or spiritual(holy) father.
the Dying word of Jesus for his holy father was ALI ALI.
Nothing less than Marifat.
Today to defend ALI for his statement most Tariqati will run away because of their conviction as not accepting n understanding HIM as Holy father.(God as proclaimed by Jesus and followed by over 30% of world population not as a concept but CONVICTION ).

ALI NEEDS FAITHFUL attorneys at all levels and different platform.

I know who will run away and who will defend ALI to the world ifrom the members of this Forum.

In reasoning of Logic
If the Reflection seen of original of seen object or figure is a "Human Being'
than who/what is the original whose' reflection' is seen?

a) Human being. b) A ghost .c) Nothing

Any 2nd grade student (who is not blind) will answer it.
one need not be rocket scientist or a PhD to answer a simple question.
Acknowledging the reflection is Tariqat.
and knowing the origin of the reflection is Haqiqat.
and Unifying with that is Marifat

[nuseri]

Sorry amendment to the question
on reflection.
It should be read as
'figure is of a human being"
ans not as 'figure is a human being'

[tret]

First, do you understand what does it mean, when MHI approves something? It's not the leaders who makes the final decision or the decision on behalf of MHI!!! It's MHI who give His final approval. Especially in the matters of faith!!! Other than MHI there's NO OTHER AUTHORITY TO INTERPRET FAITH!!! NO LEADERS!!! NO ONE!!! At least this is my understanding anyways as an ismailie. But, if you think any leader can come up with a resolution here and there, then what would be the purpose and role of The Imam?

I truly doubt that any ismailie is in agreement with you about this claim!!!

Well, you sound like a second zznoor to me.
Are you trying to start a war here?
Maula ALI doesn't need any attorney or anyone to defend him! According to your mindset, right now even zznoor says Ali is Allah, then she automatically becomes a mahrifati to you, regardless of if she knows the truth or not [sorry zznoor that I had to give you as an example].

It's second time that you are shying away from the question.

You said, it's the matter of taqia that MHI approved how the concept of God and Allah be thought in Ismailie Tariqa [I don't see it this way, since it's within our Tariqa], but let's assume for a second that it is, then WHY ARE YOU NOT PRACTICING TAQIA???? THIS SHOW YOUR DISOBEDIENCE If Taqia was truly the intend, isn't it a message that must be passed on to the Jama'at? Aren't we supposed to practice that Taqia, then? [This is where you fail!!]

According to you, Farameen of MHI starts with "My beloved spiritual children...". True! When the audience is all Ismailies, especially in Didar, that's the opening statement. But, what I was saying, about MHI interview/speeches/etc, when addressing public, we can still find truth and guidance in MHI speech. do you agree with that??

About reflection: The way you are understanding it, you sound more like a 'shariati' according to yourself. You still look at zahiri and physical appearance!!! My friend, please do some reading and elevate your understanding of our Batini tariqa. On the one hand, you claim to be haqiqati [or mahrifati] and on the other hand, you still think at very zahiri level. I am sorry to tell you that, but that's what appears from your replies or at least that's what you reflect.

When we say Imam is Mazhar of Allah, and reflection of Allah, we are not talking about physical appearance of Allah and Imam [This is where you fail, again!!]. Imam reflects Attributes [Divine names] of Allah. such as Most merciful, All knowing, etc... like a crystal clear mirror without any dust or rust [ego, power, wealth, fame, etc...]. I see ego in you, even in myself and everyone that I know. Ego is the first thing we need to kill if we want to reach to higher sphere. We are trying so hard to prove that we are right [This is ego!!]. Well, I thought you know more than a 2nd grader, but I was wrong!!!

BTW, if someone truly reaches a level where he becomes one with the Divine, and claims that Imam is Allah [or He is Allah], like Al Halaj, He would never disclose this secret, for secret MUST remain secret. You on the other hand, say it like you are saying your name.


Just a suggestion, friend: Try to express your ideas clearly. It's really hard to follow what you are trying to say!! Most of your statements don't make any sense, and you may have a very good intention of expressing them, but it's not getting across very well. Just a small suggestion.

[nuseri]

To tret:Ya Ali Madad.

There are over 70 sect in Islam due to what persons other than Imam
thinking themselves as wise,smart cunning etc undermined the then Imam of the time and set convents as understood by them and broke away as sects seen today.
Early ones were the Khalifas assuming they had deemed approval of the Prophet on matters of Faith.
It went on till times of today.

It is sad to see Ismailis in spite of having given Bayat to the Imam and are dancing to the tune of leaders concept papers.

First n foremost is follow the Farman of the Imam said verbally or written by HIM.
Here we see that resolutions out of concept papers is becoming the sole
doctrine and order of the faith.
Please read the history of people tweaking the status of Imam to a normal surviving human being,They are the one who created the new subsect with concept of Ghayab Imam etc etc.

Imam from time time does approves like Ginan,Qasidas and other Tariqa matters as traditional material to supplement the faith.

These material are part of Tariqa to understand the Haqiqat n beyond that and NOT to absolute follow them who composed it.

In the same way 1975 is nearly 39 years old a concept paper was made n approved N NOT A FARMAN MADE BY AN IMAM.

It was on how best can MHI be portrayed amongst the world community n Ummah and how best the the word Imam be seen and written as in words if needed from the text and word available.They did a brilliant job as that was the need of that period.

The constitution which came later super seeds all earlier concept papers in part or totality.

Ask other forum members who all are with reasonable understanding.

WHOM WOULD THEY FOLLOW ?

A. Concept papers prepared by the leaders and Approved by MHI.
or
B. Farmans made by MHI personally on matters of Faith.

( those who are blind and cannot read it may ignore this question)

If resolutions of followerswould rule the day of an Ismaili then Farmans will look useless to those follow sad history of divisions in Islam religion.

If Allah is formless ( where is that said in any any Ayat ?)

Then how come its reflection/image/mazhar have a form and a body of a Human?

Nuseri was considered as a Disobedient Tariqati then by Asabs along side with H Ali.

Not one but few Imams have mentioned Him in their Farman to have faith n become like Him.

I believe those Farmans.Do you as an Ismaile believe those Farmans?

I heard that people of other religion wanted to become Ismailie for the sake of Immigration benefits.

I also acknowledge the approved concept papers needed for smooth running of Imamat activities 39 years back.

[a_27826]

To tret:Ya Ali Madad.

There are over 70 sect in Islam due to what persons other than Imam
thinking themselves as wise,smart cunning etc undermined the then Imam of the time and set convents as understood by them and broke away as sects seen today.
Early ones were the Khalifas assuming they had deemed approval of the Prophet on matters of Faith.
It went on till times of today.

It is sad to see Ismailis in spite of having given Bayat to the Imam and are dancing to the tune of leaders concept papers.

First n foremost is follow the Farman of the Imam said verbally or written by HIM.
Here we see that resolutions out of concept papers is becoming the sole
doctrine and order of the faith.
Please read the history of people tweaking the status of Imam to a normal surviving human being,They are the one who created the new subsect with concept of Ghayab Imam etc etc.

Imam from time time does approves like Ginan,Qasidas and other Tariqa matters as traditional material to supplement the faith.

These material are part of Tariqa to understand the Haqiqat n beyond that and NOT to absolute follow them who composed it.

In the same way 1975 is nearly 39 years old a concept paper was made n approved N NOT A FARMAN MADE BY AN IMAM.

It was on how best can MHI be portrayed amongst the world community n Ummah and how best the the word Imam be seen and written as in words if needed from the text and word available.They did a brilliant job as that was the need of that period.

The constitution which came later super seeds all earlier concept papers in part or totality.

Ask other forum members who all are with reasonable understanding.

WHOM WOULD THEY FOLLOW ?

A. Concept papers prepared by the leaders and Approved by MHI.
or
B. Farmans made by MHI personally on matters of Faith.

( those who are blind and cannot read it may ignore this question)

If resolutions of followerswould rule the day of an Ismaili then Farmans will look useless to those follow sad history of divisions in Islam religion.

If Allah is formless ( where is that said in any any Ayat ?)

Then how come its reflection/image/mazhar have a form and a body of a Human?

Nuseri was considered as a Disobedient Tariqati then by Asabs along side with H Ali.

Not one but few Imams have mentioned Him in their Farman to have faith n become like Him.

I believe those Farmans.Do you as an Ismaile believe those Farmans?

I heard that people of other religion wanted to become Ismailie for the sake of Immigration benefits.

I also acknowledge the approved concept papers needed for smooth running of Imamat activities 39 years back.

to nuseri:

are you trying to say Imam is practising "takiya" ?

That is, He is God but not declaring so because to reconcile with the "other side" and soften their hearts ?

[tret]

There are over 70 sect in Islam due to what persons other than Imam
thinking themselves as wise,smart cunning etc undermined the then Imam of the time and set convents as understood by them and broke away as sects seen today.
Early ones were the Khalifas assuming they had deemed approval of the Prophet on matters of Faith.
It went on till times of today.

That's exactly, why it's important to follow and obey what MHI has ordered!! Everyone's right in their own way of thinking and their belief system. And belief is directly dependent on our knowledge and understanding and our background history. One thing I'd like to remind us all, is that we are muslim first, and as Ismailies, we must believe and accept in the very first article of Ismailie constitution and pillar of Ismailie Tariqa, which is "Shahada". And that's exactly what MHI has approved that "concept of God in the Ismaili Tariqah should be taught with emphasis on the absolute transcendence of God aligned with Surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an".

It is sad to see Ismailis in spite of having given Bayat to the Imam and are dancing to the tune of leaders concept papers.

Again, let me clarify my dear friend: If you think the resolution was produced by ismailie leaders on behalf of MHI. YOU ARE WRONG!!!
This is one of the very important topic in any religion, and if leaders draw that conclusion without seeking MHI approval, is a disgrace and discredit to MHI's role and authority as Hazar Imam. Do you understand that?
This is what interpretation of Faith is all about!!! You are afraid that if you accept any position other than Allah, to MHI, then you are guilty and doing wrong; Please show any Farman of MHI that says that? Remember, Farmaans are given to Murids strictly based on time and space!!!
What you have posted -- first of all, there are a lot of concepts can be lost/added in translation -- have a different context!! One must try and understand the theme and context of a given Farmaan!! You can not go willie nillie and pick words and phrases from a Farmaan and twist it to satisfy your preference!!

First n foremost is follow the Farman of the Imam said verbally or written by HIM.
Here we see that resolutions out of concept papers is becoming the sole
doctrine and order of the faith.

There was a reason why MHI approved that resolution!! We must try to reflect on it! It's not THE Doctrine of Ismailie, IT HAS BEEN part of the Doctrine of Ismailie for a very very long time!!! Please do some reading about history of Ismailie and Ismailie belief and Doctorine!!
To you it may seem a resolution on paper; but what you are missing is to reflect and understand.

Please read the history of people tweaking the status of Imam to a normal surviving human being,They are the one who created the new subsect with concept of Ghayab Imam etc etc.

Are you referring to Shia twelver? I don't know which history are you referring? Please provide a source/link or something ? No body [Ismailies] tried to change the status of the Imam!! If there's been a case in the past, please provide evidence, I will be more than glad to explore and read!!!

Imam from time time does approves like Ginan,Qasidas and other Tariqa matters as traditional material to supplement the faith.
These material are part of Tariqa to understand the Haqiqat n beyond that and NOT to absolute follow them who composed it.

Ginan and Qasidas are a genre of work left behind by our great Dai's and Pir's to inspire us. Imam does not approve from time to time; but Imam wants us to read them as one of the source of inspiration!!
I agree that Ginan-e-sharif and Qasidas are to help us inspire and realize beyond zahiri level, but what I don't understand what do you mean by "NOT to absolute follow them who composed it"?
Why would one follow someone else? When I read a book, for example; I try to read and understand the content of the book. I may read the biography of the author; but do I follow what the author was doing as his/her hobby or lifestyle? No way!!!
So I really don't understand what you are saying.

In the same way 1975 is nearly 39 years old a concept paper was made n approved N NOT A FARMAN MADE BY AN IMAM.

You see my dear friend, you are very much concerned about the age everything!!! You always say this is 39 years old, that is 1300 years old, and so on...
They way I look at it, truth is not bound to time and space!!! Truth is always truth. 4+4 has been equal to 8 1000 years ago, and I am pretty certain that it will be 8 1000 year from now!!!

It was on how best can MHI be portrayed amongst the world community n Ummah and how best the the word Imam be seen and written as in words if needed from the text and word available.They did a brilliant job as that was the need of that period.

Well maybe or maybe not! What you say is purely speculation!!! I can say otherwise!! But, what we say is all based on our preferences and how we want to preceive it!
What's the reality of it, is this: MHI has approved this! Period! Whether it's for reason X or reason Y, should you be concerned??? For me, if MHI says Follow something, I follow it without questioning!!!
That's what bay'hat and submission is all about!!
I feel I am repeating this again, but in matters of faith, MHI has the sole and full authority to interpret faith!!! NO OTHER AUTHORITY, NO ISMAILIE LEADERS!! OR ANYONE ELSE!!

The constitution which came later super seeds all earlier concept papers in part or totality.

Where in the Constitution rejects what MHI has approved?? Have you read the Constitution? Tell me the very first article of Ismailie Constitution? Tell me what do you understand from the first article of the constitution?

Ask other forum members who all are with reasonable understanding.

WHOM WOULD THEY FOLLOW ?

A. Concept papers prepared by the leaders and Approved by MHI.
or
B. Farmans made by MHI personally on matters of Faith.

( those who are blind and cannot read it may ignore this question)

You get it wrong my dear friend!!! Do you really want me to repeat again?
For the last time: in matters of faith, only Hazar Imam enjoys full authority to interpret faith!!! This subject clearly to me is one of the matters of faith!!! don't you think so?
The way you think, my dear friend, is you are giving leaders more authority over MHI (Astaghfer-ullah)!!

So, your question is baseless in this particular case. Of course any Ismailie follow Farmaan of MHI.

If resolutions of followerswould rule the day of an Ismaili then Farmans will look useless to those follow sad history of divisions in Islam religion.

I really don't understand why do you think this way? Why do you think that there are people who wants to devide religion?
I am simply saying that what MHI has approved, let's reflect on it, together. This is a discussion. Please provide reasonable ground and evidence and convince me!! Trust me, I would be more than glad to learn something from you[or any members].
But, if you can't not convince me, please have an open mind and listen to others arguments as well!

If Allah is formless ( where is that said in any any Ayat ?)

That would be Surah Ikhlas, which was emphasized and approved by MHI.

Then how come its reflection/image/mazhar have a form and a body of a Human?
Nuseri was considered as a Disobedient Tariqati then by Asabs along side with H Ali.

First of all Mazhar is not equal to reflection!! Mazhar is locus [place of] manifestation. Now what's reflected from Mazhar of Allah, is Allah's divine names and qualities, which belong to human aspect of God.
Al-Rahmaan, Al-Raheem, for example!
Human are all capable of reflecting these attributes with different intensities, and it depends how clear our mirrors[souls] are!!
We can purify [clear] our souls[mirror] so we can better reflect these attributes, by receiving guidance form Imam-e-Zamaan! And we can only do that by increasing knowledge and understanding of Taw'heed.
I can support you in your arguments in the following way:


If I take a drop of water [or a glass of water] and drop it in the ocean, will you be able to find that drop of water [or glass of water] again? You will never be able to find it.
Because it immerse with the ocean and becomes ONE with IT. From here onward, you don't refer to the drop of water[or glass of water] as 'drop' or water ['glass of water']; but you would refer as OCEAN!!!
So, in this sence I support your arguments and that's why Al Halaj was claiming so!!

Not one but few Imams have mentioned Him in their Farman to have faith n become like Him.

I believe those Farmans.Do you as an Ismaile believe those Farmans?

I heard that people of other religion wanted to become Ismailie for the sake of Immigration benefits.

I also acknowledge the approved concept papers needed for smooth running of Imamat activities 39 years back.

Well, as an Ismailie, of course I believe in Farameen mubarak! I never said otherwise! But, we have to understand the context of a given Farmaan!!
Again, my dear friend, if MHI approves something, trust me, it's for the betterment of Jama'at! MHI has always said that He has spent His entire life time during His Imamat serving Jama'at! And any decision that He makes, I believe in it 100% without any questions or doubt!


One thing I want to re-iterate that I said in my previous post is about interview/speeches of MHI.
I believe that we[Ismailies] are very lucky in today's day and age! Countries respect Him! Presidents/Prime minsters welcome Him! He is a King without Kingdom because the World is His kingdom.
In todays day and age, when MHI gives a speech I see value and guidance not only for Ismailies, but for the entire humanity!! I believe MHI is not only from Ismailies, but also from the entire mankind!!
His guidance and advice benefits everybody beyond race/culture/religion! The only statement that MHI doesn't make in a public speech, is "My beloved spiritual children...".
It's my believe, only! You'r welcome to disagree with my opinion and I am fine with that!!

And please re-read the 2nd last paragraph of my previous post!!