Admin, Can you please provide which year and place these firmans were recited. I will be in India in 2 months and would like to get these firmans.Admin wrote:Yes they have. I have read that in many manuscripts of Aga Ali Shah's farman, also Aga Hassanali Shah's Farmans. Consistent trend.
Explaination needed of Koran Ayat.
Why would I give you those? I know it is not going to make any difference in your thinking. If you are an Ismaili, you will have access to all of those when they are published, if you are not, sorry. On the Internet no one knows if the person posting is a girl, a boy, an old person or a teenage, a person sound of mind or a mentally chalenged, a genuine person searching for thruth or a troublemaker, so please do not ask for farmans or dates or place which you are going to challenge anyway.sheri wrote:Admin, Can you please provide which year and place these firmans were recited. I will be in India in 2 months and would like to get these firmans.Admin wrote:Yes they have. I have read that in many manuscripts of Aga Ali Shah's farman, also Aga Hassanali Shah's Farmans. Consistent trend.
That's exactly correct, and one must remember that and must not draw conclusions without evidence and proof, for example, one lives in Montreal, if his ethnicity is from central asia, or one has multiple user IDs, or one has shallow faith, or one is not ismaili. In north america, in a court of law, one's innocent, until proven guilty. Meaning, by default everyone's good, until they are proven guilty by evidence beyond reasonable doubts.Admin wrote:
On the Internet no one knows if the person posting is a girl, a boy, an old person or a teenage, a person sound of mind or a mentally chalenged, a genuine person searching for thruth or a troublemaker, so please do not ask for farmans or dates or place which you are going to challenge anyway.
What we are doing here, in this forum (actually in any forum), we base all our judgments and conclusions on our perceptions and therefore, it's entirely biased and subjective and most of the time may not be true entirely.
Just a question to you Admin - how would you confirm or deny, whether sheri belongs to any of the categories that you just mentioned? From where I see he asked a legitimate question.
Fair enough, I take my word. I can't be sure if the participant's a he or a she. How about yourself? Are you still stand corrected about your assumption?Admin wrote:i think you do not understand what I said. When you say "he" did ask a valid question, you have already decided it is a man speaking and not a women?
How are you sure of this fact which seems to you like evident. It does not seem evident to me.
To Agakhani;Ya Ali Madad.
I am not from the city or country u are assuming.
Well in wave in our forum a sharaiti given her Bayat to some street side
mullah,Moulana or kazi.
as well two there non Ismaili having given bayat to mr rupani,mr issani and and drafting committee of the Constitution.
A person not acknowledging, respect,abide and follow to best of ability Farmans of the Imams is a NON ISMAILI 1001%.
there is no grace/rider or non acceptance in full or part of it for any Ismaili to challenge the Farmans.
Their bayat by default is OFF with their challenge.
Just to point one word 'bridge'. Sheri took 7 days n stale data of some lecturer.
Even MHI has said that in his Farmans/speeches.
Quote could have been also taken from there.
JUST HORRIBLE INTENTIONS
we have excellent relation with all religions other than orthodox Shariati
who wish to blast the bridge.
In engineering parlance a bridge can only be built when two roads are
of same level or marginal gradient is there
for example a level below the streets of sewage/gutter(Shariat) line cannot
make the bridge to people on the street.
for these level a ladder is to be thrown to them.
They will try to come to the bridge because true Firqa n lighted faces
n blessed souls will be those of Ismailis (true Islam).One got carried away with a non Ismaili word of bridge with unrelated Ayat support.
I wish these 3 if they can send their face fotos to the website.so all could observe their eye rings n status of their soul from face reading.
I am not from the city or country u are assuming.
Well in wave in our forum a sharaiti given her Bayat to some street side
mullah,Moulana or kazi.
as well two there non Ismaili having given bayat to mr rupani,mr issani and and drafting committee of the Constitution.
A person not acknowledging, respect,abide and follow to best of ability Farmans of the Imams is a NON ISMAILI 1001%.
there is no grace/rider or non acceptance in full or part of it for any Ismaili to challenge the Farmans.
Their bayat by default is OFF with their challenge.
Just to point one word 'bridge'. Sheri took 7 days n stale data of some lecturer.
Even MHI has said that in his Farmans/speeches.
Quote could have been also taken from there.
JUST HORRIBLE INTENTIONS
we have excellent relation with all religions other than orthodox Shariati
who wish to blast the bridge.
In engineering parlance a bridge can only be built when two roads are
of same level or marginal gradient is there
for example a level below the streets of sewage/gutter(Shariat) line cannot
make the bridge to people on the street.
for these level a ladder is to be thrown to them.
They will try to come to the bridge because true Firqa n lighted faces
n blessed souls will be those of Ismailis (true Islam).One got carried away with a non Ismaili word of bridge with unrelated Ayat support.
I wish these 3 if they can send their face fotos to the website.so all could observe their eye rings n status of their soul from face reading.
That is exactly right Nuseri, For ZZNoor, Tret ,Sheri and some Shariyati in this forum they sure talk about to making bridges and pluralism but they all miserably failed in their own mission because of their narrow thinking, and hatters towards other sects, they really deserve that some one throw a ladder towards them so, that they can get help and able to rich at bridge level. this way they can help Ismailis to build a bridge as our Mowla says all the times otherwise that they will fail again.for example a level below the streets of sewage/gutter(Shariat) line cannot
make the bridge to people on the street.
for these level a ladder is to be thrown to them.
to nuresi and everyone else - I do not wish to continue this debate with you any more, as there's no added value. People most of the time listen to respond, not listen to understand. Even sometimes, I see myself doing so. This is all because of our ego. The more we nourish our ego, the more we get attached to temporal world. Most of the time, I consciously want to renounce my ego, but we are still human, and sometimes it's either done unconsciously or we simply can't help it.
So, I want to put an end to this as it only hurts our intellect with no use.
If it makes you any happier, I lose, and you win. What you say is correct, and what I say is wrong. But, what's the point? Let's say I agree with you, that you are correct, whatever you say; and I am wrong whatever I say. Then what? The truth doesn't change, if I agree or disagree with you.
So, i apologize if I may have hurt anyone's feeling. I believe that we should agree to disagree and beg to differ than to quarrel, but still embrace the diversity and plurality even within our community. After all everyone's responsible at the end of the day, for their own deeds, and not anyone else's. live and let live. I wish everyone to find what they are looking for.
I just want to end my say, by a beautiful verse from Maula Ali, that was quoted by MHI on May 20 2006, which I read every now and then, and it's an inspiration for me; and I hope it can be an inspiration for someone else too.
“No belief is like modesty and patience, no attainment is like humility, no honour is like knowledge, no power is like forbearance, and no support is more reliable than consultation”
-Maula Ali
So, I want to put an end to this as it only hurts our intellect with no use.
If it makes you any happier, I lose, and you win. What you say is correct, and what I say is wrong. But, what's the point? Let's say I agree with you, that you are correct, whatever you say; and I am wrong whatever I say. Then what? The truth doesn't change, if I agree or disagree with you.
So, i apologize if I may have hurt anyone's feeling. I believe that we should agree to disagree and beg to differ than to quarrel, but still embrace the diversity and plurality even within our community. After all everyone's responsible at the end of the day, for their own deeds, and not anyone else's. live and let live. I wish everyone to find what they are looking for.
I just want to end my say, by a beautiful verse from Maula Ali, that was quoted by MHI on May 20 2006, which I read every now and then, and it's an inspiration for me; and I hope it can be an inspiration for someone else too.
“No belief is like modesty and patience, no attainment is like humility, no honour is like knowledge, no power is like forbearance, and no support is more reliable than consultation”
-Maula Ali
tret wrote:to nuresi and everyone else - I do not wish to continue this debate with you any more, as there's no added value. People most of the time listen to respond, not listen to understand
A wise decision.
That is for stopping arguments.
But i hope you continue discussing and sharing the knowledge.
a_27826 wrote:tret wrote:to nuresi and everyone else - I do not wish to continue this debate with you any more, as there's no added value. People most of the time listen to respond, not listen to understand
A wise decision.
That is for stopping arguments.
But i hope you continue discussing and sharing the knowledge.
Thanks. I will certainly try and participate in a healthy and constructive discussion, if I think my input can of be any value.
tret wrote:Fair enough, I take my word. I can't be sure if the participant's a he or a she. How about yourself? Are you still stand corrected about your assumption?Admin wrote:i think you do not understand what I said. When you say "he" did ask a valid question, you have already decided it is a man speaking and not a women?
How are you sure of this fact which seems to you like evident. It does not seem evident to me.
I may be wrong but if one one doesn't know the gender of other person, then by default that person can be referred as "he" to avoid typing "he/she" every now and then.
Do you still want to through your wrong interpretation and meaning in this website, more! ?, my advise is to you please do not do that until you study Ismaili sect first deeply, not only one sided but study from Indo-Paksginanic sides too, and you have to stop making wrong interpretation any farmans.Thanks. I will certainly try and participate in a healthy and constructive discussion, if I think my input can of be any value.
If you do this then your comments may gain some weigh otherwise no BTW:- your inputs and comments never had any value for many or at least to me, and how can have value? who over rules farmans of MHI. and judges every one's imans and tells them Hindus ( to me and Shiraz) or followers of Ram, Krishna's ( to Nuseri)!!.
It may be correct or not, i don't know. But, look at this. God is referred as 'HE' when referring in third person, despite of not knowing God completely, but yet, God is referred as 'HE'. I don't know if anyone has wondered why?a_27826 wrote:tret wrote:Fair enough, I take my word. I can't be sure if the participant's a he or a she. How about yourself? Are you still stand corrected about your assumption?Admin wrote:i think you do not understand what I said. When you say "he" did ask a valid question, you have already decided it is a man speaking and not a women?
How are you sure of this fact which seems to you like evident. It does not seem evident to me.
I may be wrong but if one one doesn't know the gender of other person, then by default that person can be referred as "he" to avoid typing "he/she" every now and then.
Admin wrote: Obviously God can not be called "He" or "She". In fact in the first century Christian manuscripts of Nag Hamadi, God is also refereed as "She."
In Islam, we see also masculine attributes [active] as well as feminine [passive] attributes of Allah.
Admin - can you give an example of [active] and [passive] attributes?
I don't think gender, my physical health, age or anything else has anything to do with you providing me the information. If you provide the information, I will only be able to access it if I am a ismaili or I know a ismaili. Given that these farmans are not readily available, and only must be in archives of Ismaili Council and individuals who have failed to return the farmans as requested by the Paris Conference, it would make my search much easier if you can provide a "source, date, place" so I can narrow my search when I am in India.Admin wrote: Why would I give you those? I know it is not going to make any difference in your thinking. If you are an Ismaili, you will have access to all of those when they are published, if you are not, sorry. On the Internet no one knows if the person posting is a girl, a boy, an old person or a teenage, a person sound of mind or a mentally chalenged, a genuine person searching for thruth or a troublemaker, so please do not ask for farmans or dates or place which you are going to challenge anyway.
You have the names of the Imams that made those Farmans - isn't that enough?sheri wrote:I don't think gender, my physical health, age or anything else has anything to do with you providing me the information. If you provide the information, I will only be able to access it if I am a ismaili or I know a ismaili. Given that these farmans are not readily available, and only must be in archives of Ismaili Council and individuals who have failed to return the farmans as requested by the Paris Conference, it would make my search much easier if you can provide a "source, date, place" so I can narrow my search when I am in India.Admin wrote: Why would I give you those? I know it is not going to make any difference in your thinking. If you are an Ismaili, you will have access to all of those when they are published, if you are not, sorry. On the Internet no one knows if the person posting is a girl, a boy, an old person or a teenage, a person sound of mind or a mentally chalenged, a genuine person searching for thruth or a troublemaker, so please do not ask for farmans or dates or place which you are going to challenge anyway.
If you were truly an ismaili - you'd know that Imam Aga Ali Shah was Imam for about 4 years - and served many years as Pir - Tariqah Board India should have all of his farmans handy no?
Shams
Though I think - even if the Imam were to tell you Ali is Allah - you'd doubt him because his statement wouldn't fit into your understanding of your faith.....ShamsB wrote:You have the names of the Imams that made those Farmans - isn't that enough?sheri wrote:I don't think gender, my physical health, age or anything else has anything to do with you providing me the information. If you provide the information, I will only be able to access it if I am a ismaili or I know a ismaili. Given that these farmans are not readily available, and only must be in archives of Ismaili Council and individuals who have failed to return the farmans as requested by the Paris Conference, it would make my search much easier if you can provide a "source, date, place" so I can narrow my search when I am in India.Admin wrote: Why would I give you those? I know it is not going to make any difference in your thinking. If you are an Ismaili, you will have access to all of those when they are published, if you are not, sorry. On the Internet no one knows if the person posting is a girl, a boy, an old person or a teenage, a person sound of mind or a mentally chalenged, a genuine person searching for thruth or a troublemaker, so please do not ask for farmans or dates or place which you are going to challenge anyway.
If you were truly an ismaili - you'd know that Imam Aga Ali Shah was Imam for about 4 years - and served many years as Pir - Tariqah Board India should have all of his farmans handy no?
Shams
The Quran states - bring faith upon the unseen, the unfelt, the unknown.
yet - we have a living Imam and yet we can't bring faith.
Shams
Stop beating around the bush. Prove your credibility and provide references. Whenever I ask for references to farmans, you all keep on personally attacking me. If you don't have the references, then just admit. No need to attack me. Yes, your Sathpanti Ginans have it because Hindus needed to be converted to Islam. The Pirs who converted you are also removed from the Dua, because we want to disassociate them with the claims they have made.
There is no where in any part of the Dua which directly states Ali=Allah. I know the meaning by heart. Provide exact references as the whole dua with meaning is publicly available on this website and on many other website. So either support your claim with references, which I doubt you can.
There is no where in any part of the Dua which directly states Ali=Allah. I know the meaning by heart. Provide exact references as the whole dua with meaning is publicly available on this website and on many other website. So either support your claim with references, which I doubt you can.
Sheri Urfe Tret,
I already told you that we have evidence and we have reference the only thing you need to find it, I guess you are in U.S.A. there are many Ismailis living here they have IMAM HASAN ALI SHAH, IMAM AGA ALI SHAH and SMS farmans ask them they will give it to you for example I gave those farman to ShamsB but after I checked he is really an Ismaili! and he is a true Ismaili,doing great khidmat of MHI. congratulation brother Shams, keep doing that great work.
I already told you that we have evidence and we have reference the only thing you need to find it, I guess you are in U.S.A. there are many Ismailis living here they have IMAM HASAN ALI SHAH, IMAM AGA ALI SHAH and SMS farmans ask them they will give it to you for example I gave those farman to ShamsB but after I checked he is really an Ismaili! and he is a true Ismaili,doing great khidmat of MHI. congratulation brother Shams, keep doing that great work.
it seems "old dua" your are referring to is different from "old dua" Sheri is referring to, assuming Sheri not from Indian origin.agakhani wrote:Yes, it is quoted many time in old dua that "ALI SAHI ALLAH"! not only one time but many times in old dua will you believe this?There is no where in any part of the Dua which directly states Ali=Allah
so how many forms of obligatory salats we had before this current uniform "dua" ?
To Tret:
What was the form of salat in your area before our current uniformed "dua" ?
a_27826 wrote: it seems "old dua" your are referring to is different from "old dua" Sheri is referring to, assuming Sheri not from Indian origin.
so how many forms of obligatory salats we had before this current uniform "dua" ?
To Tret:
What was the form of salat in your area before our current uniformed "dua" ?
Salat (Namaz) and Du'a has always co-existed, historically in Ismaili tariqa.
Where I grew up (Even today in those regions of Central Asia), Ismailies have Jama'at Khana as well as Mosque where Ismailis offer Salat and Du'a.
I remember hearing from older generations, that Ismailies weren't allowed to have JK and practice our religious rituals openly, and they only had Mosque with proper Minbar and they were offering Salat; the Du'a was offered after Salat (kind of in secret, individually), where as Salat was performed formally with the Azan.
Today, with the grace of Maula, Ismailies have Jam'at Khana openly and practice our tariqa rituals openly; and at the same time Ismailies have mosuqes and offer Namaz (Salat) too.
My personal belief, and it's only mine, as I have always emphasized!
The intention of Du'a and Salat are the same. We offer our supplication and prayers to the Almighty Allah, whether we do it in form of Du'a or Salat, we achieve the same goal. If one decides to offer Salat besides Du'a, it's all good. Ismaili tariqa, nor the Imams, do not forbid offering Salat. But, if one decides to only offer Du'a and not Salat -- in my personal view -- since the intention is the same, then we still achieve the same goal.
But, I would really appreciate from other participants to indicate in which part of our Du'a it's implied that Ali is Allah. I read/recite [and understand the meaning of the Du'a] everyday, and unless I overlooked something really that important, I'd like my ismaili brothers to point out which part of the Du'a they really mean. I have this question before, but it was just a hint that it's in the Du'a.
a_27826 wrote:it seems "old dua" your are referring to is different from "old dua" Sheri is referring to, assuming Sheri not from Indian origin.agakhani wrote:Yes, it is quoted many time in old dua that "ALI SAHI ALLAH"! not only one time but many times in old dua will you believe this?There is no where in any part of the Dua which directly states Ali=Allah
so how many forms of obligatory salats we had before this current uniform "dua" ?
To Tret:
What was the form of salat in your area before our current uniformed "dua" ?[/quote
It's interesting that instead of asking Sheri to produce her version of the old du'a - you're asking agakhani.
Ask anyone here that has studied the Old Du'a and it's all over the Old Du'a..both versions actually - the daily du'a and the ghatpat du'a.
Shams
Don't you think you are still thinks narrowly? you are just thinking about Du'a and Salat, that is fine they both are same but what about our old Du'a ?or about ginans? What about Hindu Bhajans, Gurvani !are not they supplication and prayers to Almighty Allah/God!!? are not they achive same goal what you achieve reciting salat?
It was unknown to me that Ismailis in central Asia are going JK and also in Mosque? Thanks for the info.
It was unknown to me that Ismailis in central Asia are going JK and also in Mosque? Thanks for the info.
tret, the "old dua" is posted on this website under the library --> religious section. You will need access and ask Admin for the access. If you can get access, you can read it and be the judge yourself.
However, I believe that if the importance of Ali=Allah (which is not mentioned) was so critical, Vishnu was so critical, Pirs were so critical, 77 santras were so critical, then why did MHI not include these fundamental concepts to the new dua. Instead of a 5 min dua we would have had a 8 min dua --- big deal. These concepts have no place in universal ismaili theology, and hence they were removed as other non-indian jamats would not comprehend such concepts as they are in violation to Islamic doctrine.
The dua was crafted by Pir Sadardin to convert the Hindus into Muslim. It took 700 years of hard work to break the idol worshiping habits. After 700 years of hard work, we have started reverting back to physical worshiping by making Ali=Allah. With so much access to knowledge, there are educated hindus praying to a stone idol created by another man. Our religion is in continuous reform, we need to accept the changes made by MHI, otherwise we are going against his wishes.
However, I believe that if the importance of Ali=Allah (which is not mentioned) was so critical, Vishnu was so critical, Pirs were so critical, 77 santras were so critical, then why did MHI not include these fundamental concepts to the new dua. Instead of a 5 min dua we would have had a 8 min dua --- big deal. These concepts have no place in universal ismaili theology, and hence they were removed as other non-indian jamats would not comprehend such concepts as they are in violation to Islamic doctrine.
The dua was crafted by Pir Sadardin to convert the Hindus into Muslim. It took 700 years of hard work to break the idol worshiping habits. After 700 years of hard work, we have started reverting back to physical worshiping by making Ali=Allah. With so much access to knowledge, there are educated hindus praying to a stone idol created by another man. Our religion is in continuous reform, we need to accept the changes made by MHI, otherwise we are going against his wishes.
any reason for Ismailis having Mosque for Namaz and JK for Dua ?tret wrote: Today, with the grace of Maula, Ismailies have Jam'at Khana openly and practice our tariqa rituals openly; and at the same time Ismailies have mosuqes and offer Namaz (Salat) too.
Why not recite both Namaz and Dua in one place (Mosque or JK) ?