Explaination needed of Koran Ayat.

[tret]

tret, the "old dua" is posted on this website under the library --> religious section. You will need access and ask Admin for the access. If you can get access, you can read it and be the judge yourself.

However, I believe that if the importance of Ali=Allah (which is not mentioned) was so critical, Vishnu was so critical, Pirs were so critical, 77 santras were so critical, then why did MHI not include these fundamental concepts to the new dua. Instead of a 5 min dua we would have had a 8 min dua --- big deal. These concepts have no place in universal ismaili theology, and hence they were removed as other non-indian jamats would not comprehend such concepts as they are in violation to Islamic doctrine.

The dua was crafted by Pir Sadardin to convert the Hindus into Muslim. It took 700 years of hard work to break the idol worshiping habits. After 700 years of hard work, we have started reverting back to physical worshiping by making Ali=Allah. With so much access to knowledge, there are educated hindus praying to a stone idol created by another man. Our religion is in continuous reform, we need to accept the changes made by MHI, otherwise we are going against his wishes.

Sheri - About old Du'a. The old Du'a wasn't universal for all jama'at. Rather, each region I believe had their own Du'a. Central Asian jama'at had their won Du'a which was in Farsi. [BTW, there was no implication of Ali=Allah]. And indian jama'at had theirs.


I know there are differences of opinion between ismailis from different part of the world, such as this; however, I don't think it's our place to dictate what should one believe. It certainly doesn't imply what indian jama'at believes, necessarily other jama'at from other parts of the world must believe. But, I believe that in today's day and age, with information, especially sacred information at the disposal of jama'at, not only jama'at but mankind in general, one has to seek the truth and find the right path and reality.

What I think, that one's background should not influence the belief system. I think our indian jama'at must really be lucky and appreciative that they have been brought into the straight path. I think everyone should express their opinion and one with intellect and reasoning has to draw conclusion. There's a great verse from Hafiz that says:

حافظ وظیفه تو دعا گفتن است و بس
دربند آن مباش که نشنید یا شنید

Meaning: Hafiz, your duty is to say prayers -- don't worry about whether one listens or not!

I gave my opinion, whether one agrees or not, really not my place to say otherwise. However, nonetheless, I expect the same from others. If one can give me reasoning backed up with proof, then I should do the same, listen and learn.

[tret]

Today, with the grace of Maula, Ismailies have Jam'at Khana openly and practice our tariqa rituals openly; and at the same time Ismailies have mosuqes and offer Namaz (Salat) too.

any reason for Ismailis having Mosque for Namaz and JK for Dua ?

Why not recite both Namaz and Dua in one place (Mosque or JK) ?

That's a very good question, and I really don't know the answer. I believe the direction must come from MHI, since these are very delicate matters of faith, especially in an mainstream orthodox society. I really wouldn't allow myself to speculate on this. Besides, I have been out of contact from my region more few decades now.

[Admin]

A Jamatkhana is not a Mosque. Back to basic. And if Sheri think that it took 1,400 years to the idolater Arabes to come to Islam and forget about all their Idoles Allat Manat Ozzat, Allah and I do not remember the other 356 idoles names... then so be it.

And if she thinks that the names of Abraham and Jesus were added to the Islamic faith to convert the Jews and the Christian and Muslims are still clinging to those 14 Centuries after the begining of Islam, so be it.

As far as we Ismailis are concerned, Islam started from the begining of begining, not only since 1,400 years. There are basics which Sheri needs to revisit before posting.

As far as the Old Dua is concerned It was recited even hundred years ago in Syria, I have heard from Shaikh Khodr Hamawi his recitation of the Asal Dua, many years ago, he told me that before 1956, that was the Dua recited by Ismailis in Syria.

[sheri]

A Jamatkhana is not a Mosque. Back to basic. And if Sheri think that it took 1,400 years to the idolater Arabes to come to Islam and forget about all their Idoles Allat Manat Ozzat, Allah and I do not remember the other 356 idoles names... then so be it.

And if she thinks that the names of Abraham and Jesus were added to the Islamic faith to convert the Jews and the Christian and Muslims are still clinging to those 14 Centuries after the begining of Islam, so be it.

As far as we Ismailis are concerned, Islam started from the begining of begining, not only since 1,400 years. There are basics which Sheri needs to revisit before posting.

As far as the Old Dua is concerned It was recited even hundred years ago in Syria, I have heard from Shaikh Khodr Hamawi his recitation of the Asal Dua, many years ago, he told me that before 1956, that was the Dua recited by Ismailis in Syria.

I am in no dispute about the fact that the message of Allah is Universal, Eternal. However, I ask you one simple question: Why did Allah choose to use concepts in the Quran from Judaism and Christianity, but not Hinduism and Buddhism? ---->

IMAM SMS put it the most eloquently:

The answer of Islam is precise and clear. In spite of its great spiritual strength, Jewish monotheism has retained two characteristics which render it essentially different from Islamic monotheism: God has remained, in spite of all, a national and racial God for the children of Israel, and His personality is entirely separate from its supreme manifestation, the Universe. In far-distant countries such as India and China, the purity of the Faith in the one God had been so vitiated by polytheism, by idolatry and even by a pantheism which was hardly distinguishable from atheism that these popular and folklore religions bore little resemblance to that which emanated from the true and pure Godhead. Christianity lost its strength and meaning for Muslims in that it saw it great and glorious founder not as a man but as God incarnate in man, as God made Flesh. Thus there was an absolute need for the Divine Word's revelation, to Mohammed himself, a man like the others, of God's person and of his relations to the Universe which he had created.


Please read the above more than once and see what IMAM SMS's thoughts are on why Allah chose Judaism and Christianity as reference point. Admin - I know you have a Hindu background and you will remain firm in you beliefs, but I encourage you to read the above paragraph by IMAM SMS - it provides enough information for the intelligent mind to understand why Islam was needed, what were the flaws with the other religions and why Hinduism was never relevant to our tariqah and will never be relevant to our tariqah.

[ShamsB]

tret, the "old dua" is posted on this website under the library --> religious section. You will need access and ask Admin for the access. If you can get access, you can read it and be the judge yourself.

However, I believe that if the importance of Ali=Allah (which is not mentioned) was so critical, Vishnu was so critical, Pirs were so critical, 77 santras were so critical, then why did MHI not include these fundamental concepts to the new dua. Instead of a 5 min dua we would have had a 8 min dua --- big deal. These concepts have no place in universal ismaili theology, and hence they were removed as other non-indian jamats would not comprehend such concepts as they are in violation to Islamic doctrine.

The dua was crafted by Pir Sadardin to convert the Hindus into Muslim. It took 700 years of hard work to break the idol worshiping habits. After 700 years of hard work, we have started reverting back to physical worshiping by making Ali=Allah. With so much access to knowledge, there are educated hindus praying to a stone idol created by another man. Our religion is in continuous reform, we need to accept the changes made by MHI, otherwise we are going against his wishes.

Sheri - About old Du'a. The old Du'a wasn't universal for all jama'at. Rather, each region I believe had their own Du'a. Central Asian jama'at had their won Du'a which was in Farsi. [BTW, there was no implication of Ali=Allah]. And indian jama'at had theirs.


I know there are differences of opinion between ismailis from different part of the world, such as this; however, I don't think it's our place to dictate what should one believe. It certainly doesn't imply what indian jama'at believes, necessarily other jama'at from other parts of the world must believe. But, I believe that in today's day and age, with information, especially sacred information at the disposal of jama'at, not only jama'at but mankind in general, one has to seek the truth and find the right path and reality.

What I think, that one's background should not influence the belief system. I think our indian jama'at must really be lucky and appreciative that they have been brought into the straight path. I think everyone should express their opinion and one with intellect and reasoning has to draw conclusion. There's a great verse from Hafiz that says:

حافظ وظیفه تو دعا گفتن است و بس
دربند آن مباش که نشنید یا شنید

Meaning: Hafiz, your duty is to say prayers -- don't worry about whether one listens or not!

I gave my opinion, whether one agrees or not, really not my place to say otherwise. However, nonetheless, I expect the same from others. If one can give me reasoning backed up with proof, then I should do the same, listen and learn.

Tret

Even the old Du'a was universal - every ismaili recited it.

I've talked to a great number of Central Asian and Chinese Ismailies - a lot of them older Ismailies - who knew the old du'a by heart.
From what I know - an individual was not taught the Du'a or about the faith until they were 18.

So once again - i'd say please go back to the old du'a. And in Sheri's case - he/she is an indian ismaili - so even if there is a difference in the Central Asian Du'a and the Indian Old Du'a - there shouldn't be an issue for her.

Being Indian - the Du'a should be same.

How do I know Sheri's indian? - we've been notified that Sheri will be going to India in a previous post and will research this information - so i am making that connection.

Shams

[ShamsB]

Today, with the grace of Maula, Ismailies have Jam'at Khana openly and practice our tariqa rituals openly; and at the same time Ismailies have mosuqes and offer Namaz (Salat) too.

any reason for Ismailis having Mosque for Namaz and JK for Dua ?

Why not recite both Namaz and Dua in one place (Mosque or JK) ?

Which Ismailies have a mosque? I've never heard of it. Last time I checked we were to pray in a Jamat Khana.

As per guidance from the Imam - the prescribed prayer for the Ismailies is Du'a.
the Ismaili Namaz, whenever approved, is an optional prayer - and not to replace the Du'a nor to be recited enmasse in Jamat Khana.

Shams

[agakhani]

The dua was crafted by Pir Sadardin to convert the Hindus into Muslim. It took 700 years of hard work to break the idol worshiping habits.

That is totally lie from you Sheri urfe Tret,( wah bhai wah) you ask the question and as a sheri answer!!! You can not make fool every one, BTW:- none Ismaili pirs never ever told us to worship idols and we never did it . About old Du'a please ( show me where it pir Sadardin say to worship idols) please stop this kind nonsense and lies, seems that you are off the tract now.

[tret]

Which Ismailies have a mosque? I've never heard of it. Last time I checked we were to pray in a Jamat Khana.

As per guidance from the Imam - the prescribed prayer for the Ismailies is Du'a.
the Ismaili Namaz, whenever approved, is an optional prayer - and not to replace the Du'a nor to be recited enmasse in Jamat Khana.

Shams

Ismailies who live in an ismailic state, such as central asia, syria, and other islamic state. That's why MHI states in one of his interview that a definition of an educated person in 21st century is more and more understanding the world not understanding little parts of it. We need to understand about our history first. Since Ismailis are Muslim, and during the past Namaz has always co-existed and was performed by Ismailies. It doesn't imply that one should replace other. I already gave my view on Du'a and Namaz, please re-visit.


I don't believe there's any Farmaan of MHI or previous Imams or instructions of MHI that dictates to prohibit the Namaz. If there is I'd like a reference.

[tret]

Even the old Du'a was universal - every ismaili recited it.

So, are you saying that jama'at of india and central asia were reciting the same Du'a (Text) as we do today?
Or are you saying that it was the same [old]Du'a (Same content), but with different translations into Farsi, Gujrati, Urdu and etc..?

What I mean by universal is like our current Du'a, that every ismailie, no mater where you are from, recites this. It's a unified Du'a. However, with the old Du'a, as you indicated it was in Gujrati. I recall in central asia the old Du'a was in Farsi. So, there was no way jama'at of centra asia recite a Gujrati Du'a and vise versa.

[tret]

Which Ismailies have a mosque? I've never heard of it. Last time I checked we were to pray in a Jamat Khana.

As per guidance from the Imam - the prescribed prayer for the Ismailies is Du'a.
the Ismaili Namaz, whenever approved, is an optional prayer - and not to replace the Du'a nor to be recited enmasse in Jamat Khana.

Shams

A find piece of reading for interested participants. There's a section on page 5 on Salat from Ismaili perspective, which can help clarify things.


http://www.iis.ac.uk/SiteAssets/pdf/Shi ... 0Nanji.pdf

[tret]

Today, with the grace of Maula, Ismailies have Jam'at Khana openly and practice our tariqa rituals openly; and at the same time Ismailies have mosuqes and offer Namaz (Salat) too.

any reason for Ismailis having Mosque for Namaz and JK for Dua ?

Why not recite both Namaz and Dua in one place (Mosque or JK) ?

That's a very good question, and I really don't know the answer. I believe the direction must come from MHI, since these are very delicate matters of faith, especially in an mainstream orthodox society. I really wouldn't allow myself to speculate on this. Besides, I have been out of contact from my region more few decades now.

I want to correct myself.

Mosque is open to everyone. Anyone, whether sunnie, twelver, ismaili or any other muslim sect can come to any mosque and offer prayer. No restrictions.

Jama'at khana is exclusively for ismailis alone. Non ismailis are not supposed to be inside Jama'at khana.

I think that's the main reason why the co-existence of Jama'at khana and Mosque.

I guess technically we could offer Namaz inside JK, and that would be okay; however, depending where jama'at is residing, existence of a mosque can be crucial, from Shar'ati perspective. Example, during the regime of taliban. We heard all kind of horrible stories; but there were/are jama'at that actually lived it. Have the jama'at not had a mosque, they would probably be persecuted and god knows what else.

[ShamsB]

Even the old Du'a was universal - every ismaili recited it.

So, are you saying that jama'at of india and central asia were reciting the same Du'a (Text) as we do today?
Or are you saying that it was the same [old]Du'a (Same content), but with different translations into Farsi, Gujrati, Urdu and etc..?

What I mean by universal is like our current Du'a, that every ismailie, no mater where you are from, recites this. It's a unified Du'a. However, with the old Du'a, as you indicated it was in Gujrati. I recall in central asia the old Du'a was in Farsi. So, there was no way jama'at of centra asia recite a Gujrati Du'a and vise versa.

Read the old Du'a - it had Gujrati, Farsi and Arabic - a lot of our current du'a is from the old Du'a.
And it was the same Du'a - same text - with minimal variations that was recited across the world.

Shams

[ShamsB]

Which Ismailies have a mosque? I've never heard of it. Last time I checked we were to pray in a Jamat Khana.

As per guidance from the Imam - the prescribed prayer for the Ismailies is Du'a.
the Ismaili Namaz, whenever approved, is an optional prayer - and not to replace the Du'a nor to be recited enmasse in Jamat Khana.

Shams

Ismailies who live in an ismailic state, such as central asia, syria, and other islamic state. That's why MHI states in one of his interview that a definition of an educated person in 21st century is more and more understanding the world not understanding little parts of it. We need to understand about our history first. Since Ismailis are Muslim, and during the past Namaz has always co-existed and was performed by Ismailies. It doesn't imply that one should replace other. I already gave my view on Du'a and Namaz, please re-visit.


I don't believe there's any Farmaan of MHI or previous Imams or instructions of MHI that dictates to prohibit the Namaz. If there is I'd like a reference.

Actually Ismailies in Syria, central asia do have Jamat Khanas - and they go to pray in the Jamat Khana.

You want to recite the Namaz (which is not an Arabic word - I prefer the use of the word Salat) in a mosque - go for it - anyone is welcome to do it - however - and you can check with your local ITREB - there is very specific guidance from the Imam on the recitation of the Namaz inside Jamat Khana - or whenever the Ismaili Namaz is made available - how it is NOT to replace the du'a as the obligatory or communal prayer of the Ismaili Muslims - it is an additional prayer that one may perform - however it is to be done alone as dhikr would.

Shams

[tret]

Read the old Du'a - it had Gujrati, Farsi and Arabic - a lot of our current du'a is from the old Du'a.


Shams

I know the old Du'a [Farsi], and it's all in Farsi. There's no Gujarati verbiage in it.

[ShamsB]

any reason for Ismailis having Mosque for Namaz and JK for Dua ?

Why not recite both Namaz and Dua in one place (Mosque or JK) ?

That's a very good question, and I really don't know the answer. I believe the direction must come from MHI, since these are very delicate matters of faith, especially in an mainstream orthodox society. I really wouldn't allow myself to speculate on this. Besides, I have been out of contact from my region more few decades now.

I want to correct myself.

Mosque is open to everyone. Anyone, whether sunnie, twelver, ismaili or any other muslim sect can come to any mosque and offer prayer. No restrictions.

Jama'at khana is exclusively for ismailis alone. Non ismailis are not supposed to be inside Jama'at khana.

I think that's the main reason why the co-existence of Jama'at khana and Mosque.

I guess technically we could offer Namaz inside JK, and that would be okay; however, depending where jama'at is residing, existence of a mosque can be crucial, from Shar'ati perspective. Example, during the regime of taliban. We heard all kind of horrible stories; but there were/are jama'at that actually lived it. Have the jama'at not had a mosque, they would probably be persecuted and god knows what else.

Also technically - as of now - you cannot offer congregational namaz inside the Jamat Khana - you can in private, on your own offer Namaz but it is not to replace the Du'a.
And you cannot force or compel others to offer it with you. It is a private activity.
Shams

[tret]

Actually Ismailies in Syria, central asia do have Jamat Khanas - and they go to pray in the Jamat Khana.

You want to recite the Namaz (which is not an Arabic word - I prefer the use of the word Salat) in a mosque - go for it - anyone is welcome to do it - however - and you can check with your local ITREB - there is very specific guidance from the Imam on the recitation of the Namaz inside Jamat Khana - or whenever the Ismaili Namaz is made available - how it is NOT to replace the du'a as the obligatory or communal prayer of the Ismaili Muslims - it is an additional prayer that one may perform - however it is to be done alone as dhikr would.

I think I may not have made myself clear. I never said jama'at in syria or central asia don't have jama'at khana. They do. But I was saying i heard from older generation where ismailis weren't able to claim their identity as openly as we do today, and they weren't allowed to perform our rituals of religion openly as we do today, due to state policy and dictatorship of the regime, the jama'at had to have a mosque and not JK. But, now that's not the case. Jama'at in central asia have JK all over the country and in every region and they practice openly our tariqa.

The new Namaz(Salat) whenever is available to the Jama'at by MHI and by HIS direction, Jama'at shall follow. There's no question or confusion about that. And I also stated that Mosuqe is to offer prayer (Salat/Namaz) as other mainstreams do; whereas JK is exclusively for Ismailies and for our rituals. Now, whether we can offer prayers inside JK, that's a separate topic.

But, inside Ismaili mosque, ismailies do offer Prayer(Namaz/Salat) as well as Du'a.

[tret]

That's a very good question, and I really don't know the answer. I believe the direction must come from MHI, since these are very delicate matters of faith, especially in an mainstream orthodox society. I really wouldn't allow myself to speculate on this. Besides, I have been out of contact from my region more few decades now.

I want to correct myself.

Mosque is open to everyone. Anyone, whether sunnie, twelver, ismaili or any other muslim sect can come to any mosque and offer prayer. No restrictions.

Jama'at khana is exclusively for ismailis alone. Non ismailis are not supposed to be inside Jama'at khana.

I think that's the main reason why the co-existence of Jama'at khana and Mosque.

I guess technically we could offer Namaz inside JK, and that would be okay; however, depending where jama'at is residing, existence of a mosque can be crucial, from Shar'ati perspective. Example, during the regime of taliban. We heard all kind of horrible stories; but there were/are jama'at that actually lived it. Have the jama'at not had a mosque, they would probably be persecuted and god knows what else.

Also technically - as of now - you cannot offer congregational namaz inside the Jamat Khana - you can in private, on your own offer Namaz but it is not to replace the Du'a.
And you cannot force or compel others to offer it with you. It is a private activity.
Shams

True! I never said it would.

Namaz/Salat and Du'a co-existed, and one complement the other. It's not meant to one replace the other.

[a_27826]

Read the old Du'a - it had Gujrati, Farsi and Arabic - a lot of our current du'a is from the old Du'a.


Shams

I know the old Du'a [Farsi], and it's all in Farsi. There's no Gujarati verbiage in it.

is it possible you to post a translated "old Dua", which was for central asian Ismailis ?

since this site has "old Dua", which was for Indian Ismailis, i don't think Admin will mind.

[sheri]

tret, here is the translation of the old dua which is in a forum. You don't need a password. Can you read this and tell us if the dua you had in farsi is the same or different from this one. Thanks

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... hlight=dua

[ShamsB]

I want to correct myself.

Mosque is open to everyone. Anyone, whether sunnie, twelver, ismaili or any other muslim sect can come to any mosque and offer prayer. No restrictions.

Jama'at khana is exclusively for ismailis alone. Non ismailis are not supposed to be inside Jama'at khana.

I think that's the main reason why the co-existence of Jama'at khana and Mosque.

I guess technically we could offer Namaz inside JK, and that would be okay; however, depending where jama'at is residing, existence of a mosque can be crucial, from Shar'ati perspective. Example, during the regime of taliban. We heard all kind of horrible stories; but there were/are jama'at that actually lived it. Have the jama'at not had a mosque, they would probably be persecuted and god knows what else.

Also technically - as of now - you cannot offer congregational namaz inside the Jamat Khana - you can in private, on your own offer Namaz but it is not to replace the Du'a.
And you cannot force or compel others to offer it with you. It is a private activity.
Shams

True! I never said it would.

Namaz/Salat and Du'a co-existed, and one complement the other. It's not meant to one replace the other.

Yes - but as per the Imam - it was in Fatimid times - not in recent times.

There is no injunction against an ismaili going to the mosque and reciting the salat - however it is not obligatory on all ismailies - Du'a is.
One is not permitted to stand up in Jamat Khana and lead the Jamat in the Salat - only in Eid do we recite the Eid Namaz.

The Ismaili prescribed prayer is the Du'a. The Salat/Namaz complements the Du'a not vice versa.
Du'a is the obligatory prayer - not Namaz/Salat.
Your statement implies that it goes either way - when that is not true.

Shams

[tret]

Also technically - as of now - you cannot offer congregational namaz inside the Jamat Khana - you can in private, on your own offer Namaz but it is not to replace the Du'a.
And you cannot force or compel others to offer it with you. It is a private activity.
Shams

True! I never said it would.

Namaz/Salat and Du'a co-existed, and one complement the other. It's not meant to one replace the other.

Yes - but as per the Imam - it was in Fatimid times - not in recent times.

There is no injunction against an ismaili going to the mosque and reciting the salat - however it is not obligatory on all ismailies - Du'a is.
One is not permitted to stand up in Jamat Khana and lead the Jamat in the Salat - only in Eid do we recite the Eid Namaz.

The Ismaili prescribed prayer is the Du'a. The Salat/Namaz complements the Du'a not vice versa.
Du'a is the obligatory prayer - not Namaz/Salat.
Your statement implies that it goes either way - when that is not true.

Shams

Looking at it from where we stand, your assertion is valid; but by empathy looking at it, from where we need to stand, it makes both Du'a Namaz/Salat, being complement of each other.

I want to go back to my example of an extreme case, where jama'at was living under a dictator islamic state, and had they not offered salat/Namaz, their Du'a wasn't complete -- at least according to state's sharia law. Now you may say, we'r not concerned about state's sharia law, which is true. However, for the jama'at members living under the jurisdiction, would be a big deal.

Anyways, these are technicalities we are getting to, which I really don't want us to get into. I believe we have past these long time ago. So, let's not revisit them shall we? I give it to you, that Du'a is our first and foremost priority.

[tret]

Read the old Du'a - it had Gujrati, Farsi and Arabic - a lot of our current du'a is from the old Du'a.


Shams

I know the old Du'a [Farsi], and it's all in Farsi. There's no Gujarati verbiage in it.

is it possible you to post a translated "old Dua", which was for central asian Ismailis ?

since this site has "old Dua", which was for Indian Ismailis, i don't think Admin will mind.

I have only the Farsi text and not the English translation.

I don't think I am qualified to do the English translation myself, and the values and meanings can very easily be lost in translation.

[tret]

tret, here is the translation of the old dua which is in a forum. You don't need a password. Can you read this and tell us if the dua you had in farsi is the same or different from this one. Thanks

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... hlight=dua

From the translation, this is not what Farsi old Du'a is.

[sheri]

Thanks for confirming. I would not believe anything on this website related to ismailism as the Admin is said to be Najib Tajdin the individual who took MHI to court on the farman book issue.

[a_27826]

tret, here is the translation of the old dua which is in a forum. You don't need a password. Can you read this and tell us if the dua you had in farsi is the same or different from this one. Thanks

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... hlight=dua

From the translation, this is not what Farsi old Du'a is.

But note that the 'old dua" in the thread link provided does not contain names of the Imams PreAli.

Someone told me that the "old dua" had the names of preAli Imams.

can anybody clarify ?

[a_27826]

Thanks for confirming. I would not believe anything on this website related to ismailism as the Admin is said to be Najib Tajdin the individual who took MHI to court on the farman book issue.

I always thought it was other way round.

I think it was the Imam who took Najib Tajdin to court for publishing His sayings without His consent.

[tret]

tret, here is the translation of the old dua which is in a forum. You don't need a password. Can you read this and tell us if the dua you had in farsi is the same or different from this one. Thanks

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... hlight=dua

From the translation, this is not what Farsi old Du'a is.

But note that the 'old dua" in the thread link provided does not contain names of the Imams PreAli.

Someone told me that the "old dua" had the names of preAli Imams.

can anybody clarify ?

Can you please elaborate who are pre-Ali Imams?

[sheri]

Thanks for confirming. I would not believe anything on this website related to ismailism as the Admin is said to be Najib Tajdin the individual who took MHI to court on the farman book issue.

I always thought it was other way round.

I think it was the Imam who took Najib Tajdin to court for publishing His sayings without His consent.

When someone does not understand the language of love, you have to use the stick to get them to do what is your right. MHI tried to solve it outside of court, but Najib wanted to tear apart the Ismaili institutions and bring down the Ismaili imamat. He kept ignoring the calls by MHI to shut down the printing of the farmans, and so MHI was forced to take this to court. After meeting the IMAM and confirming that he brought the case forward, the case was closed. This idiot has appealed to the federal court and has started the process all over again. This guy seriously needs to be shut out permanently. Go after all he has in saving and leave this guy bankrupt would be the best course of action.

[sheri]

From the translation, this is not what Farsi old Du'a is.

But note that the 'old dua" in the thread link provided does not contain names of the Imams PreAli.

Someone told me that the "old dua" had the names of preAli Imams.

can anybody clarify ?

Can you please elaborate who are pre-Ali Imams?

There were none. Its all made up propaganda to align the concept of reincarnation, the different cycles of rebirth, and all the stupid Hindu concepts that these individuals have tried to bring into ismailism. If you believe in the Abrahamic religions, all this is just Hindu propaganda.

[ShamsB]

But note that the 'old dua" in the thread link provided does not contain names of the Imams PreAli.

Someone told me that the "old dua" had the names of preAli Imams.

can anybody clarify ?

Can you please elaborate who are pre-Ali Imams?

There were none. Its all made up propaganda to align the concept of reincarnation, the different cycles of rebirth, and all the stupid Hindu concepts that these individuals have tried to bring into ismailism. If you believe in the Abrahamic religions, all this is just Hindu propaganda.

Once again - you have proved you have no basis in Ismaili Theology and thought.

The PreAlid Imam's - mentioned in Paradise of Submission - by Nasiruddin Tusi - go take a look.

Last time I checked - Tusi was a Persian Shia Ismaili ....not a Hindu...
How does that work?

Want to go to the Prophet's time?
"Ali you are to me as Harun was to Musa"

Btw - the list of Pre Alid Imams - isn't just Hindus - which proves you have no knowledge or idea.
Harun was on the list

Oh btw - Pre Alid Imams - mentioned in the Quran as well- but also that is something you won't understand.

Shams