ROHANI ROSHNI,An understanding.

[zznoor]

Interesting point to note about verses 002:272, 006:052, 013:022, 018:028, 030:038 are about those who desire God's Face.

How can a person desire God’s face if the person doesn’t have God's facial expression in his/her mind?

One must read comment (tafseer) from scholars to understand meaning of Ayats.

For example below is translation and comments from 2 (one Shia and one Sunni)

(Maudidi 6:52) And do not drive away those who invoke their Lord in the morning and the evening, seeking His pleasure all the time. *34 You are by no means accountable for them just as they are by no means accountable for you. If you still drive them away, you will become among the wrong-doers. *35

*34. One of the objections raised by the chiefs and the affluent members of the Quraysh was that the Prophet (peace be on him) had gathered around him a host of slaves, clients (mawali) and others belonging to the lower strata of society. They used to scoff at the fact that men of such humble social standing as Bilal, 'Ammar. Suhayb and Khabbab had joined his ranks. They wondered if they happened to be the only chosen ones of the Quraysh in the sight of God! They not only poked fun at the financial distress of these people but also attacked them for any weakness of character they had before accepting Islam. They went about saying sarcastically that those who had been such and such in the past had now become part of the 'chosen' community.

*35. That is, everyone is personally responsible for his deeds, whether good or bad. The Prophet (peace he on him) is told that he will neither have to explain to God the conduct of the converts nor will the latter be required to explain his conduct. They can neither usurp his good deeds, nor transfer their own misdeeds to his account. There is, therefore, no reason for the Prophet (peace be on him) to alienate those who approach him as seekers after Truth.

[Shakir 6:52] And do not drive away those who call upon their Lord in the morning and the evening, they desire only His favor; neither are you answerable for any reckoning of theirs, nor are they answerable for any reckoning of yours, so that you should drive them away and thus be of the unjust.

[Yusufali 6:52] Send not away those who call on their Lord morning and evening, seeking His face. In naught art thou accountable for them, and in naught are they accountable for thee, that thou shouldst turn them away, and thus be (one) of the unjust.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 6:52]
Wajh (face) means Allah's grace or pleasure, the highest aim of spiritual aspiration.

Some of the rich and influential Quraysh thought it beneath their dignity to listen to the Holy Prophet's teachings in company with the less fortunate companions like Ammar, Bilal, Salman, Abu Dharr, Miqdad and Suhayb known as ashab al sufah (the sincere and devout companions), who were true seekers of Allah's grace, nearness and pleasure. The Holy Prophet took care of and looked after them. Whether wealthy or poor, black or white, every companion was treated alike, and preference over each other was given according to the degree of piety. Bani Israil : 15; Fatir : 18; Zumar : 7; Hujurat : 13; and Zilzal : 7 and 8 say that no bearer of burdens bears the burden of another. Every individual is accountable for what he does in this life.

In fact the true sincerity of the abovenoted less fortunate companions entitled them to precedence over worldly men in the kingdom of Allah; whose justice was vindicated in the Holy Prophet's daily life. The rich and influential persons were on trial. More often than not they failed to match the faith of the poor companions who were always grateful to Allah and His Prophet for their guidance.

[a_27826]

Wajh (face) means Allah's grace or pleasure, the highest aim of spiritual aspiration

So face of God means God's grace or pleasure.

What about hand of God? What does it mean?

Yadu = hand

005:064 The Jews have said, 'God's hand is fettered.' Fettered are their hands, and they are cursed for what they have said. Nay, but His hands are outspread; He expends how He wills

[a_27826]

Another interesting point.

The verse 055:026-027 strongly implies that the face of our Lord is here on the earth and is imperishable.

055:026-027 All that dwells upon the earth is perishing, but the face of your Lord endowed with majesty and honour shall endure

[tret]

If God had a face, only thru Ilm (knowledge) one would 'see' (or experience) it, not with any kind of blind 'conviction'.

I wanna quote our beloved MHI's saying who quoted H ALI's regard for knowledge, which is absolutely beautiful, which is cited in ismaili mail wordpress.


“I cite Hazrat Ali’s words so that you may understand the spirit in which I have attempted to fulfill the mandate left to me as the 49th hereditary [Ismaili] Imam after the death of my grandfather. I quote, “No belief is like modesty and patience, no attainment is like humility, no honour is like knowledge, no power is like forbearance, and no support is more reliable than consultation”. Hazrat Ali’s regard for knowledge reinforces the compatibility of faith and the world. And his respect for consultation is, in my view, a commitment to tolerant and open-hearted democratic processes.”



Another beautiful quote from MHI, quoting Nasir Khusraw's :


A quote on knowledge by Mawlana Hazar Imam:
“In the ebb and flow of history, “knowledge is a shield against the blows of time”. It dispels “the torment of ignorance” and nourishes “peace to blossom forth in the soul”.”(Aga Khan IV quoting Nasir Khusraw, Dushanbe, Tajikistan, August 30, 2003)

taken from here gonashgo.blogspot.fr/2008/02/327comprehensive-quotes-of-aga-khan-iv.html[/url]

[a_27826]

If God had a face, only thru Ilm (knowledge) one would 'see' (or experience) it, not with any kind of blind 'conviction'.

maybe face of God means God's creation.

002:115 To God belong the East and the West; whithersoever you turn, there is the Face of God; God is All-embracing, All-knowing.

If that is so then a person can experience it without knowledge.

However to understand God's creation, then knowledge is required.

[nuseri]

To zznoor: Ya Ali Madad.
I have clearly stated the word fundamentals in one paragraph and rites in another one with different context..

Please try differentiate between the word fundamental and basics.
i.e Air and water are fundamentals to human life and then come basics of life like Food,shelter and clothing etc (5 candles).

For candle to give light, fire and oxygen are fundamental input otherwise unlit candles are worthless.

Here it has no connection to Prophet or Sunnah,It is on Face of Ali+lah= Allah.

Do not mix being the word 'Faith' and 'religious rites n obligation' into one bag for the topic.

I will debate on same topic (FACE) in other post after your replies:

I wish just one alphabet answer from YOU n Tret.

Reasoning n debates can be later with copy paste,blah,blah etc.

From the words of Allah from those ALL five Ayats ( not isolated one from the five).

Just use your OWN mind (knowledge) and simple common sense as a primary school child.

Please Answer this question.

DOES ALLAH/GOD HAS A FACE ?

A) Yes B) No.

Please select A or B.

It cannot get more simpler than that

[zznoor]

Wajh (face) means Allah's grace or pleasure, the highest aim of spiritual aspiration

comment was by Pooya/Ali Shia scholars
So face of God means God's grace or pleasure.

What about hand of God? What does it mean?

Yadu = hand

005:064 The Jews have said, 'God's hand is fettered.' Fettered are their hands, and they are cursed for what they have said. Nay, but His hands are outspread; He expends how He wills

5:64 does not mean to say Allah has physical hands.

Here is what Maudidi says about gods fettered hand

To say that someone's hands are tied (fettered), in Arabic usage, is to say that he is niggardly, that something prevents him from being generous and bountiful. Thus the Jewish observation does not mean that God's Hand is literally tied but that He is niggardly and miserly. For centuries the Jews had lived in humiliation and misery. Their past greatness had become legend, seemingly too remote ever to be restored, and so they would blasphemously lament that God had become a miser and that as the door to His treasury was now permanently locked, that He had nothing to offer them except suffering and calamity. This attitude, however, is not confined to the Jews. When confronted with trials and tribulations foolish people of other nations, too, are prone to utter such blasphemies rather than turn to God with humble prayer and supplication.

[zznoor]

2:115
Here is explanation of wajh by Shia Scholar

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:115]
Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Wajh means face - the manifesting aspect (side) of a thing. Imam Ali ibna Abi Talib says:

Beyond this moon are many moons, beyond the sun are many suns".

(Bihar ul Anwar).

The east and the west mentioned here should not be confined to the directions we know in relation to the rising and setting of the sun. It also refers to the whole cosmos where there are several moons and suns, therefore, the hold of the omnipotence of Allah, the absolute, controls and directs (manifest) in all the easts and the wests of the universe. He is the all-pervading omniscient who is in everything and everything is in Him. His manifestation (wajh) serves the purpose of man. In whichever direction the mind turns there is His manifestation. (Araf: 137, Shu-ara: 28, Saffat: 5, Zukhruf: 38, Rahman: 17).

[zznoor]

55:26-27

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

All things in nature will pass away at their appointed time, but the only one that will endure for ever is the "face" of Allah. Refer to Qasas: 88. Face expresses glory, power, majesty, essence and all the noble attributes which we associate with the beautiful names of Allah. Refer to Baqarah: 122; Araf: 180 and Bani Israil: 110.

[tret]

To mr. so-called 'mahrifati' only by himself... :D:D:

first of all, you are confused by word 'fundamental' and 'basic'. these two words are synonyms and can be used interchangebally. I know clearly it was to address mr. (or mrs. zznoor), but just an observation to show your academics. no offence btw....

I would like to re-iterrate, for you to prove when you say ALI=ALLAH (or in your words Ali+lah=Allah). If you can't prove it, then it is clear that you are that you are like blind-folded horse; and poor horse has no idea where she's going! I think you know who horse is in this case.

Why would you want to discuss topic of (FACE) in another thread? you seem to bring the question right here in this thread, and yet you warn others that you want to discuss it somewhere else? why?

you will get your one alaphabet answer, if you answer one alphabet question to my question (which you have failed multiple times in the past!!!!). But, I am unlike you my mr. so-called 'mahrifati' friend!!! I will answer your one-alphabet question. But, before I answer your 'one alphabet question', I want you to clarify your question!!!!

Please define what do you mean by 'FACE'? Do you mean 'FACE' as we (human) know it? or do you bother to care that in Qur'an it could have a symbolic or figurative meaning? if your answer is formar, then my answer is 'NO' if your answer latter, it all depends as how you interpret the symbolic meaning of 'FACE' as nicely was put by our participant who wears aliase name of 'a_27826', but alas, you failed to see!!!!

Reasoning and faith may be saved for later, but if you mean to refer by 'copy past' to what I have posted from our beloved Hazir Imam, then it would clearly shows your stand on what our beloved Hazir Imam has to say on knowledge, as what you refer 'blah blah'!!!! I sure did copy paste, and I did credit the source, but that does not make what our beloved Hazir Imam has to say about knowledge as 'blah blah' according to you, my mr. so-called 'mahrifati' friend!!!! be careful how you judge our [my] Hazir Imam!!!! I don't care how you see Hazir Imam, but to me Shah Karim is my Hazir Imam, and HIS Farman and words are ultimate and CERTAINLY above yours!!!!!

It's funny and ironic that you are referring 'knowledge' when you don't believe in it!!! Like I said multiple times, self-contradicting never ends with you!!!

[zznoor]

DOES ALLAH/GOD HAS A FACE ?

A) Yes B) No.

Please select A or B.

No

According to Jewish and Islamic tradition, only Musa AS and Muhammad AS were in presence of Allah. They were unable to look at Him.

[nuseri]

To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.

You have courage to tell a lie from traditions(they are beliefs n not truth) but DO NOT believe in the words of Allah himself in 5 different Ayat.
You have in a way presented that you do not have mind/else of your own.Seem to look like it's sold out.TRY TO SAVE YOUR SOUL

It is good to have courage to tell a lie (like Hardened criminals) than to be fearful of telling the truth.

God bless your reading/understanding n conviction in the words of Allah.

If there is NO Face then on law of logic is there is NO Allah.

If a person cannot trust the word of Allah in simple language ,what it canit ever understand the complex Quran.in which Allah has said it is also book of Baatin?

Tret is our brother in Faith just temporarily entrapped with lot of data over his conviction

[tret]

DOES ALLAH/GOD HAS A FACE ?

To understand God is only through his Hujjat!!! God in His own form is beyond human's understanding, because human can understand only things that he can experience through his six senses, and God transcends mind, body, time and space. Now, some brothers/sisters can easily confuse Hujjat of God with God Himself, and I don't blame them because to know God's Hujjat is to know God himself.

Now coming back to 'FACE' question, it all depends what do we mean by face. If we mean literal, then you could only refer to His Hujjat's but in Qur'an it could very well be interpreted to mean differently. We can all take those 'simple' verse and speculate and give our opinions, but true interpretation can only come from our beloved Hazir Imam.

[a_27826]

DOES ALLAH/GOD HAS A FACE ?

A) Yes B) No.

Please select A or B.

God does not, not have a face

[agakhani]

DOES ALLAH/GOD HAS A FACE ?

A) Yes B) No.

Please select A or B.

Correct answer is 'B'
Allah doesn't have any shape as per Quran and Bible and Ismaili ginans : Nirajan ( sinless/ Shubhan) Nirakar ( shapleless)

"Niranjan Nirakar che maro nath"

Question for all:-

I have heard in one Hadith, as per this Hadith; Allah (swt) has created "Man" in his image (or in the image of his face).!! when there is no shape of Allah then how the heck this possible that he has created Adam on his face???? honest and reliable answer only

[a_27826]

DOES ALLAH/GOD HAS A FACE ?

A) Yes B) No.

Please select A or B.

No

According to Jewish and Islamic tradition, only Musa AS and Muhammad AS were in presence of Allah. They were unable to look at Him.

Surely God can manifest to whomever He wants.

According to Quran, God spoke to Moses and had conversations with him.

019:052 We called to him from the right side of the Mount, and We brought him near for conversation

020:011-012 When he came to it, a voice cried, 'Moses, I am your Lord; put off your shoes; you are in the holy valley, Towa.

028:030 When he came to it, a voice cried from the right of the watercourse, in the sacred hollow, coming from the tree: 'Moses, I am God, the Lord of all Being'

[zznoor]

but true interpretation can only come from our beloved Hazir Imam.

When?

[zznoor]

To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.

You have courage to tell a lie from traditions(they are beliefs n not truth) but DO NOT believe in the words of Allah himself in 5 different Ayat.
You have in a way presented that you do not have mind/else of your own.Seem to look like it's sold out.TRY TO SAVE YOUR SOUL

It is good to have courage to tell a lie (like Hardened criminals) than to be fearful of telling the truth.

God bless your reading/understanding n conviction in the words of Allah.

If there is NO Face then on law of logic is there is NO Allah.

If a person cannot trust the word of Allah in simple language ,what it canit ever understand the complex Quran.in which Allah has said it is also book of Baatin?

Tret is our brother in Faith just temporarily entrapped with lot of data over his conviction

Knock off brother.
who do you think you are?
Learn some antiquete of civilized discussion.
Salaam

[tret]

but true interpretation can only come from our beloved Hazir Imam.

When?

When the time is right. Whenever there is a need. Our Imams send Frameen in accordance with time. If everyone interpreted Qur'an according to their understanding there would be multiple version of same ayah and the important question is which to believe as it has been happening a mongst mainstream Muslim brothers.

[nuseri]

To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.
A simple cross examination.
The question was asked from 5 Ayats THE true words of Allah himself telling about his face.
1.From where does hear say story come of the entity X or Y come.?
2.Are hear say story on entity are greater than the words of Allah.?
3 Is the copy of the Quran copy owned by 2782 is tampered?
4. You were supposed to answer from 5 ayats with your own mind and
not who did or did not see.
Tafseer of lesser fool will always take majority of greater fools for a long ride.
For them for their bankrupt knowledge.If they write
That moon is not a moon but everything else
Face is not a Face but everything else.
They need slaps on their faces n not accolades.

Is there any Ayat, from Quran only (what Allah says is absolutely TRUE.)
1.That he is faceless,he is formless
in precise Arabic n not statement from any smart cookies.

please quote with the Ayats against Ayats n not hear say.

It is amusing that a person who thinks smartly can have face and person who made him in the first place be Faceless,formless,every thing less.
Where he has said this in Quran.

HE HAS VERY CLEARY IN ALL FIVE AYAT HAS STATED THE WORD FACE RELATED TO HIS FEATURES.

Anyway in this world there are levels of conviction and Ayats are also there where he mentioned many "as Those".(parts from a total)

To Agakhani:Ya Ali Madad.
Welcome back.Jagiya aetle sawar
Please can you post the Ginans (many of them) where Pir's has described the face of God/Allah or various names attributed to him by Pir's

Do Hindus believe that Lord Krishna was God amongst them in human form.Was he faceless n formless?
He proclaimed and defined himself as God.( as hinted from earlier postings from Shiraz).

YAAR AAPKA IMAAN KAISE IDHAR UDHAR HO RAHAA HAI.
YA IMAAN AUR DIPLOMACY KA COCKTAIL BANAA RAHE HO?

[zznoor]

but true interpretation can only come from our beloved Hazir Imam.

When?

When the time is right. Whenever there is a need. Our Imams send Frameen in accordance with time. If everyone interpreted Qur'an according to their understanding there would be multiple version of same ayah and the important question is which to believe as it has been happening a mongst mainstream Muslim brothers.

Is there collection of interpretation of Quranic Ayas by Maulana Hazir Imam?
How many Ayas he has interpreted?
From Imam Ali to Hazir Imam Ismailis should have correct interpretation of whole Quran.
Great and authentic addition to multiple interpretations.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
Few of the members have posted their opinion on the question.
As I observe all the members are of sound mind and with very good Intellect.
Here are my POV.
please expand in context of the 5 Ayats on 'Face of Allah' ONLY n ONLY
as we do not derail it.

Islam means submission to the will of Allah.

In other words to accept the words of Allah as expressed by Him in absolute.

Please reads those 5 Ayats with open mind and just think of Allah's words with 'no influencing' factor for a while.

I am sure grace of Allah will be on all of you trying to understand HIM with sincerity.

My simple questions to all of you:
1.What is the un convincing words of Allah or the lines of the Ayats?

2.What is your suspicion on those Ayats?

3.Do these Ayats looks fake or tempered with?

4.Is Allah saying a joke in these Ayats?

5.Is Allah taking the readers n believers for a toss or a ride? .

Please note I have not touched any of those Ayats yet to explain or impose my views or referring to specific Qasida of Nasir Khusraw or other references

In the same spirit for an any healthy debate,Please refrain any external matter other than those mentioned in the 5 Ayats.

Let your conviction/faith stay put with you but answers n participation is needed by all.

ALI KI WAKALAT JO KARTE AA RAHE HAI HUM.
YEH BHI SAHI.

[zznoor]

2.What is your suspicion on those Ayats?

3.Do these Ayats looks fake or tempered with?

4.Is Allah saying a joke in these Ayats?

5.Is Allah taking the readers n believers for a toss or a ride? .

Questions worth referring to MHI
Ultimate interpreter of Quran.

[zznoor]

2.What is your suspicion on those Ayats?

3.Do these Ayats looks fake or tempered with?

4.Is Allah saying a joke in these Ayats?

5.Is Allah taking the readers n believers for a toss or a ride? .

What is your take?

[agakhani]

When?

The answer of your above question has been discussed many time in many thread, will you please take some time and search it again rather then asking same question here again and again which you have already asked many time in past!.

By the way brother a_27826 give you a perfect answer of your above question When? so wait and see just little more: the real and true interpretation of Quran along with that missing 10 paras will be introduced soon by one of our Imam that is for sure FYI:- If you and few other readers in this web site ( they know whom I talking about!) thing correct way then you guys can easily find out when that will be happen!..

[zznoor]

When?

The answer of your above question has been discussed many time in many thread, will you please take some time and search it again rather then asking same question here again and again which you have already asked many time in past!.

By the way brother a_27826 give you a perfect answer of your above question When?
where
so wait and see just little more: the real and true interpretation of Quran along with that missing 10 paras will be introduced soon by one of our Imam that is for sure FYI:- If you and few other readers in this web site ( they know whom I talking about!) thing correct way then you guys can easily find out when that will be happen!..

nearly 90 + years has passes since Maulana SMS said he is going to write down 10 additional chapters. It has been 5years since uniform Namaaz was promised, it's ok. Intezar aur sahi, Aur sahi, aur sahi

Salaam brother

[Admin]

Mowlana Baqir said there were 4 parts in the Quran: Prophesies, Commandments, History and Imamat. That Part of Imamat was missing.

Are these the 10 missing chapters you are looking for.?

We Ismailis have these parts of Imamat that our Imams through history have brought to us through their Farmans on Imamat.

Yes, non-Ismailis do not access to those because when Harat Ali went to give them the Quran exactly as the Prophet (PBUH) recited, they rejected it and Mowlana Ali made a promise that you guys will not have access to the complete Quran till the Day of Judgement.

This is logical because if you believe that Imam interprets (correctly) the Quran, the people who do not believe in The Imam have cut themselves out of the true interpretation of the complete Quran.

[zznoor]

We Ismailis have these parts of Imamat that our Imams through history have brought to us through their Farmans on Imamat.

Alas most of Muslim are not aware of this. Those who know should not laugh it off. It is serious stuff and it means they are following doctored, incomplete book.
I will always wonder how Hz Ali lived knowing Quran he recited in public was doctored!
That is ultimate Taqiya.

[zznoor]

Harat Ali went to give them the Quran exactly as the Prophet (PBUH) recited, they rejected it and Mowlana Ali made a promise that you guys will not have access to the complete Quran till the Day of Judgement.

Amazing
There were quite a few Sahabas who were Hafiz Al Quran. Hz Ibn Abbas chief among them. He even kept quite?

Impossible to believe.

Did he not bring compilation of Ayats in order of revelation which was not accepted?

[Admin]

is serious stuff and it means they are following doctored, incomplete book. I will always wonder how Hz Ali lived knowing Quran he recited in public was doctored! That is ultimate Taqiya.

Since Allah said that the Religion was Perfect before the compilation of the book, it was not important to make any repeat declarations to this effect. Many Hafiz objected during the compilation that it did not contain all of what was brought by Allah through the Prophet. Many complained that what they brought was not part of the text approved by the human compilers.

Hazrat Ali made his point at Siffin by declaring follow me, I am the talking Quran.

you may want to read a little bit about the act that Islam was declared perfect by Allah before the compilation by human beings of whatever they could find and found acceptable to be part of their book.

And you may also want to find out about the fact that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) never compiled the Quran in a book format, nor was ever ordered/allowed by Allah to do so.

All that has been discussed umpteen time and it is better not to bring this subject in this thread.