Safai Tariqah

[safaialevi]

Hello dear Ismailis and other brothers,
I am from Lebanon, I was researching on Ismailism? I belong to Safai Tariqah, some people called it us as Safavi Alevi but we have no thing to do with the Safavid of Iran.
Safai Tariqa which only rare people heard about it, is Twelver Shia, but it adhere rationalism, secularism and even socialist ideas.
I found that we have a lot of things common with Nizari Ismaili, like concept of Zahir and Batin, we don't observe Sharia.
But we Praying, Sawm, and Hajj are voluntary not obligatory.
Our centers called Jame', we beleive in concept of Wahdat Al Wojoud, we have our own collection of hadith and religious hymns and we beleive in Taqiyya.
But something that we beleive that there are Basic Imams who are the twelve Imams and Murshid Imams, who are since are the same of the Nizari Ismaili Imams, so his highness Aga Khan is consider Imam Murshid to us, but I don't we have a real connection with his his higness. My father even used to put an picture for him at his room.
My safai friends in Syria live as Ismailis, I am really interested in knowing more about your beliefs.

[Admin]

We are all one, like separated brothers. You seems to be n the right path and we wish you success in your search for Truth.

[a_27826]

I belong to Safai Tariqah,

we beleive that there are Basic Imams who are the twelve Imams and Murshid Imams, who are since are the same of the Nizari Ismaili Imams, so his highness Aga Khan is consider Imam Murshid to us

How many Tarikas do Alevi have ?

Do all Safai Alevis consider Aga Khan as Imam Murshid ?

Are there other Tarikas in Alevi who consider Aga Khan as Murshid Imam ?

[safaialevi]

How many Tarikas do Alevi have ?

Do all Safai Alevis consider Aga Khan as Imam Murshid ?

Are there other Tarikas in Alevi who consider Aga Khan as Murshid Imam ?

I really don't know the answer of this, but as I searched I find that Safai Tariqas share beliefs with Alevis, Qarmitian, Houroufi, Kysanites, and Nizari.

[tereishqnachaya]

Safai Alevi? Is there another term for your sect? Which area of Lebanon do most people of your sect live?

[Admin]

What about in relation to Druzes in Lebanon, how much common beliefs do you have?

[safaialevi]

Safai Alevi? Is there another term for your sect? Which area of Lebanon do most people of your sect live?

We usually called ourselves Shia, Alevi, and if we want to distinguish ourselves Safavi or Safa'i.

There are families live in Beirut mainly, and also in south and north families. There is no official calculations for the sect population but I thing there are few thousands in Lebanon. I met people from Turkey, Kurdistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria who are also Safavis and share same beliefs.

What about in relation to Druzes in Lebanon, how much common beliefs do you have?

I think we share many beliefs with Druze in Lebanon, but we are more open-minded, liberal, and flexible like we can marry from people from other religions or sects, you can leave the Tariqa when you want, you can convert to the Tariqa which is open to all people, ... but I think we share many philosophical ideas and principles with them. [/quote]

[agakhani]

Interesting! but can you please tell us what Safai belives to AgaKhan? Are they consider them as an Ismaili or not? please answer.

[a_27826]

I think Alevis are Twelvers, but not like "Usuli" Twelvers but more like "Akbari" Twelvers.

Twelvers take Musa Kazim (and not Ismail) as the rightful successor of Jaffer Sadiq.

so they can't be considered as "Ismailis"

[safaialevi]

Interesting! but can you please tell us what Safai belives to AgaKhan? Are they consider them as an Ismaili or not? please answer.

The Safa'i believe that there are two kinds of Imams, the main Imams who are the twelve imams, and the murshid imams who we consider them as the door to the twelve imams. Before Imam Ismail bin Jaffar, we believe that Zayd bin Ali, Mohammed bin Hanafiyya, and others from sons of his Hazrat Ali are mursid imams, but after imam Ismail, we believe in the same line of Ismaili imams as Imams too, to the current imam Aga Khan.

The mursid imam can be consider somehow as Last Marja' (Religious Reference) to us, in the Occultation.

I think Alevis are Twelvers, but not like "Usuli" Twelvers but more like "Akbari" Twelvers.

Twelvers take Musa Kazim (and not Ismail) as the rightful successor of Jaffer Sadiq.

so they can't be considered as "Ismailis"

Safa'i are not the same as Turkish Alevi or Syria Alawis, we share some figures with Turkish Alevi like Haj Bektash and Yunus Emre and some beliefs but we are not the same.

Safa'is are Twelvers as they believe in twelve imams and Ismailis as they believe in Ismaili Imams, we believe that Musa Kazim as the main Imam, and Ismail as Murshid Imam.

But they have different traditions, laws and beliefs at the same time. Our tariqa is traced to Safieddine Haydar and his wife Safa Hassan, who were Nimatullahi before he started a new circle of followers, and his sons organize the tariqa, especially Zayd Haydar.

[agakhani]

Brother SafaiAlevi,
Thanks for the clarification, indeed I was unaware about your religion and belives.
Last question,
Are you guys performs traditional namaz or Ismaili Dua or you have your own prayer? And if possible give more information Safieddin Hyder and about his wife.

[safaialevi]

Brother SafaiAlevi,
Thanks for the clarification, indeed I was unaware about your religion and belives.
Last question,
Are you guys performs traditional namaz or Ismaili Dua or you have your own prayer? And if possible give more information Safieddin Hyder and about his wife.

Brother ask much you want, only rare people who interact with us knew about our religion, because we don't talk about it in public, and we believe in Taqiyya, which means to us avoid talking about religion in public, not because we afraid, but to protect the society from sectarianism, and because religion is spiritual and social way for the individual.

To answer your question, I will tell you that Namaz, Sawm, and Hajj to Safa'i are not obligatory. But we have our rules for them, which are different from other sect but we can perform traditional namaz, and Ismaili Dua.

For Namaz, it is performed three times a day, at sunrise, evening, and midday. It is like traditional namaz having rakaat and sojoud. But we perform specific ayat from Quran. Sunrise pray is 6 rakaat (2 are main, and 4 are not), midday pray is 12 rakaat (8 are main and 4 are not), evening pray is 10 rakaat (7 are main and 3 are not).

[safaialevi]

Saffieddine Haydar family were from the Qizilbash who convert later to Nimatullahi, so Saffieddine Haydar was Nimatullahi, who was study to become a Sheikh, later he moved to Anatolia, where he marry from Bektashi woman called Safa Hassan, becuase of this we are called Safavi or Safa'i, so they start a new circle of students lefting the Nimatullahi order and Bektashi Order, later their son continue as the head of the circle, and later his son Ali. But the order actually start by Zayd bin Ali Haydar, who put and organize the Safa'i order, which continue to this day.

[tret]

Brother SafaiAlevi,
Thanks for the clarification, indeed I was unaware about your religion and belives.
Last question,
Are you guys performs traditional namaz or Ismaili Dua or you have your own prayer? And if possible give more information Safieddin Hyder and about his wife.

Brother ask much you want, only rare people who interact with us knew about our religion, because we don't talk about it in public, and we believe in Taqiyya, which means to us avoid talking about religion in public, not because we afraid, but to protect the society from sectarianism, and because religion is spiritual and social way for the individual.

To answer your question, I will tell you that Namaz, Sawm, and Hajj to Safa'i are not obligatory. But we have our rules for them, which are different from other sect but we can perform traditional namaz, and Ismaili Dua.

For Namaz, it is performed three times a day, at sunrise, evening, and midday. It is like traditional namaz having rakaat and sojoud. But we perform specific ayat from Quran. Sunrise pray is 6 rakaat (2 are main, and 4 are not), midday pray is 12 rakaat (8 are main and 4 are not), evening pray is 10 rakaat (7 are main and 3 are not).

Just a curious observation - if you are considering yourself a Shia twelver (this implies that you believe in 12 imams only), then how come you also recite ismailie Dua?

the major divide (differences) between shia twelver and ismaili is the succession of the Imam after Imam Jafar-i-Sadiq.

[safaialevi]

Just a curious observation - if you are considering yourself a Shia twelver (this implies that you believe in 12 imams only), then how come you also recite ismailie Dua?

the major divide (differences) between shia twelver and ismaili is the succession of the Imam after Imam Jafar-i-Sadiq.

Please read what I wrote about our beliefs about Imamah, it is above.

[tret]

Just a curious observation - if you are considering yourself a Shia twelver (this implies that you believe in 12 imams only), then how come you also recite ismailie Dua?

the major divide (differences) between shia twelver and ismaili is the succession of the Imam after Imam Jafar-i-Sadiq.

Please read what I wrote about our beliefs about Imamah, it is above.

That's exactly my point!

If you believe on 12 imams, then how can you make the connection to the 49 Imam, if you divert at Imam Jafar-e-Sadiq? Unless, the heredity through Nass is not something that you are concerned, which is on the contrary quit important to Ismailies.

[zznoor]

For Namaz, it is performed three times a day, at sunrise, evening, and midday. It is like traditional namaz having rakaat and sojoud. But we perform specific ayat from Quran. Sunrise pray is 6 rakaat (2 are main, and 4 are not), midday pray is 12 rakaat (8 are main and 4 are not), evening pray is 10 rakaat (7 are main and 3 are not).

Midday 8 Rakats main
Looks like 4 fard for Zohr and 4 fird for Asr = 8 rakat
Evening 7 rakat Main
3 Fard for Magrib and 4 Fard for Isha = 7 Rakat.
In line with combined prayers of Ithna Shia Muslims

[tret]

For Namaz, it is performed three times a day, at sunrise, evening, and midday. It is like traditional namaz having rakaat and sojoud. But we perform specific ayat from Quran. Sunrise pray is 6 rakaat (2 are main, and 4 are not), midday pray is 12 rakaat (8 are main and 4 are not), evening pray is 10 rakaat (7 are main and 3 are not).

Midday 8 Rakats main
Looks like 4 fard for Zohr and 4 fird for Asr = 8 rakat
Evening 7 rakat Main
3 Fard for Magrib and 4 Fard for Isha = 7 Rakat.
In line with combined prayers of Ithna Shia Muslims

In case you missed it, he's referring himself to be Shia ithna shariah.

[a_27826]

The Safa'i believe that there are two kinds of Imams, the main Imams who are the twelve imams, and the murshid imams who we consider them as the door to the twelve imams. Before Imam Ismail bin Jaffar, we believe that Zayd bin Ali, Mohammed bin Hanafiyya, and others from sons of his Hazrat Ali are mursid imams, but after imam Ismail, we believe in the same line of Ismaili imams as Imams too, to the current imam Aga Khan.

Tell me as to how does the present Ismaili Imam as leads you to the occulted twelver Imam ?

[safaialevi]

Actually the connection to the murshid Imam is just in name, there is no real connection, let me say it is just a symbolized connection, which start in the past and continue tell today.
Our community developed by time, it developed its own traditions, laws, and structure.
And the idea, that we are connected to both twelve Imams and Ismaili Imams, is from our heritage from the Nimatullahi order where some Ismaili Imams are considered as prominent figures, as I believe.

[tret]

Actually the connection to the murshid Imam is just in name, there is no real connection, let me say it is just a symbolized connection, which start in the past and continue tell today.
Our community developed by time, it developed its own traditions, laws, and structure.
And the idea, that we are connected to both twelve Imams and Ismaili Imams, is from our heritage from the Nimatullahi order where some Ismaili Imams are considered as prominent figures, as I believe.

Who in your tariqa makes the connection? Is there a committee or do you guys have someone who has the authority to make those connections?
It seems rather convenient don't you think, to take some Imams and not others?
I believe din and madhab is not about convention but rather conviction. If something doesn't add up, we need to figure out why, especially in matters of faith.

[tret]

there is no real connection, let me say it is just a symbolized connection

What's symbolized connection? I don't understand... What is the connection? are you guys looking for any kind of pattern? similarities? signs? what...

[a_27826]

Actually the connection to the murshid Imam is just in name, there is no real connection, let me say it is just a symbolized connection, which start in the past and continue tell today.
Our community developed by time, it developed its own traditions, laws, and structure.
And the idea, that we are connected to both twelve Imams and Ismaili Imams, is from our heritage from the Nimatullahi order where some Ismaili Imams are considered as prominent figures, as I believe.

Does your community hold belief that the present living Ismaili Imam is infallible ?

[safaialevi]

there is no real connection, let me say it is just a symbolized connection

What's symbolized connection? I don't understand... What is the connection? are you guys looking for any kind of pattern? similarities? signs? what...

I mean that Murshid Imams not only Ismaili Imams or the current Imam, have a great influence on our Tariqa, and they will always influence it but they have no real authority or connection.

Who in your tariqa makes the connection? Is there a committee or do you guys have someone who has the authority to make those connections?
It seems rather convenient don't you think, to take some Imams and not others?
I believe din and madhab is not about convention but rather conviction. If something doesn't add up, we need to figure out why, especially in matters of faith.

Our Tariqa have its own organization, and there is a councils, committees, and individuals who hold responsibilities in religious and social matters. Murshid Imams are influential figures to us. The cases of our Madhab are open to be discussed by our councils.

Does your community hold belief that the present living Ismaili Imam is infallible ?

what do you mean by infallible?

[safaialevi]

there is no real connection, let me say it is just a symbolized connection

What's symbolized connection? I don't understand... What is the connection? are you guys looking for any kind of pattern? similarities? signs? what...

I mean that Murshid Imams not only Ismaili Imams or the current Imam, have a great influence on our Tariqa, and they will always influence it but they have no real authority or connection.

Who in your tariqa makes the connection? Is there a committee or do you guys have someone who has the authority to make those connections?
It seems rather convenient don't you think, to take some Imams and not others?
I believe din and madhab is not about convention but rather conviction. If something doesn't add up, we need to figure out why, especially in matters of faith.

Our Tariqa have its own organization, and there is a councils, committees, and individuals who hold responsibilities in religious and social matters. Murshid Imams are influential figures to us. The cases of our Madhab are open to be discussed by our councils.

Does your community hold belief that the present living Ismaili Imam is infallible ?

what do you mean by infallible?

[a_27826]

I mean that Murshid Imams not only Ismaili Imams or the current Imam, have a great influence on our Tariqa, and they will always influence it but they have no real authority or connection.

so you can have more than one Murshid Imam at a time.

what happens when two or more Murshid Imams contradict each other on some subject ?

In such case who do you follow ?

[agakhani]

Please stop bombarding question after another question to Safaialevi, just take his sect as another sects there are already 73 sects in Islam if one more arises then it is nothing wrong and it is nothing new in Islam.
At least safaialevi's sect consider our Imam as their imams too, while other Islamic sect nothing do but only criticism on our sect and Imam.

[agakhani]

I , mean please do not discorage any one to explore their thinking or belives, if we discouraging them, then we cannot learn more about different things! after all we are coming here to learn something which we do not know, be honest with you I was unaware about safaialevi sect. One thing good they are doing is they are not atleast worshipping stone or human being and considers our our imams as their imam, however it is not acceptable to accept twelers imams as our Ismaili imams after imam Jaffer Sadiq so leave it for them.

[safaialevi]

so you can have more than one Murshid Imam at a time.

what happens when two or more Murshid Imams contradict each other on some subject ?

In such case who do you follow ?

No, one Murshid Imam at a time, but many through out the history. Before Imam Ismail we accept other Murshid Imams.

[zznoor]

Please stop bombarding question after another question to Safaialevi, just take his sect as another sects there are already 73 sects in Islam if one more arises then it is nothing wrong and it is nothing new in Islam.
At least safaialevi's sect consider our Imam as their imams too, while other Islamic sect nothing do but only criticism on our sect and Imam.

73 is just rethoricle number used in Quran. It does not mean only 73 sects. There are already hundreds of sects and thousands of sub sects. Ismailis on this site do not give much credence to Hadit except when it is convenient to make a point.

This is not to derail thread