ROHANI ROSHNI,An understanding.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:28 am

nearly 90 + years has passes since Maulana SMS said he is going to write down 10 additional chapters.

Sister,
This is your mistake SMS never told that he will introduce or write down those 10 missing paras!!! he did mentioned couples of time about those 10 missing paras and he also mentioned that one Imam will be introduced it but he never mentioned that "HE" ( means SMS himself) will introduced or rewrite those paras!!
It is possible that I may have over looked his farmans i.e. that he will introduce 10 paras! so, I will highly appreciate if you kindly provide me the date and place of this kind farman so, I can double check it. but as per my thinking he never mentioned that he (SMS) will write down 10 additional paras. period.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:01 pm

One more request sister,
Please stop to put any wrong information which information you do not have solid proof, it may be damage the iman of those Ismailis, specially youngsters in north America they may think wrong way because of this kind wrong information because they can not read farmans in Gujarati, Khojki or Urdu languages and faramins of SMS not available in English language yet.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:33 pm

To those who consider themselves as Quranic scholars and hate ginans and lovez Qasidas: (no needs to point their names becausw they knows that wbom I talking about except Nuseri he has tremendous love and faith on Ali but otherwise he is amongst them!. But here he is excuser because I am also talking about H.Ali.

I am still waiting for the answer of the question which I have asked couple of days ago, let me repeat it here again; why the heck Allah say that he created Adam on his own face? When every religions including Islam agrees that God doesn't have any shape! ?
When God doesn't have any shape then how that possibles that he could had talked with prophet Moses? Because to speak with others you have to have face! but here we all believes that Allah does not have shape! if you can not satisfy me soon then I have to have believe that Allah has shape and also has face and that shape is as H. Alis face (recite salwat on him) I will be happy if some one in this forum prooves me wrong otherwise I will start to believe tha Allah does have shape, his shape was in form of H.Ali and now in our current H.Imam, that is as simple as this, if you open your eyes widly and clearly you can see that sorry Admin some time I have to be open.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:49 pm

Sorry brother Nuseri,
Damn my cell phone typing
Please read as exluded ( means ommited) not as accuser as I typically mistakened for you.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:52 pm

to agakhani...

I am not sure, if you are trying to prove if Qur'an is right? Or otherwise?

Because, if I remember correctly, you were the one who was saying 'Qur'an is incomplete', 'Qur'an is old', 'Qur'an is outdated'. And now you are quoting from the same Qur'an and trying to make your point? It seems that you are very selective in defending your position, it's seems only funny to me. Same is true for mr. right!! when it serves his purpose, he only dictates to refer to Qur'an about those ayats and no ifs/buts etc... but when it doesn't, he says, oh it's utmanic Qur'an and I don't believe in it because it has been composed xyz years ago by xyz person.

These confusions will all vanish, should one increase his/her knowledge.

My two cents is for all my ismailie brothers/sisters is to study and understand our [ismailie] history first to know who we are and where we've come from. This way we could give logical reasoning for other mainstream brothers and sisters, and not just say something out of ignorance, which is really not what our beloved MHI wants us to do. Then to understand and learn the principal and fundamentals and belief system of our tariqa through which we can find salvation and elevate to higher world, part of which is love (ishq) towards ALI and our Imams and Ahl-ul bayt.

If we only realize the secrets that are hidden in holly Qur'an, we would have never said, 'Qur'an is old' or 'outdated'

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:55 pm

Agakhani bhai said :

I am still waiting for the answer of the question which I have asked couple of days ago, let me repeat it here again; why the heck Allah say that he created Adam on his own face? When every religions including Islam agrees that God doesn't have any shape! ?
When God doesn't have any shape then how that possibles that he could had talked with prophet Moses? Because to speak with others you have to have face! but here we all believes that Allah does not have shape! if you can not satisfy me soon then I have to have believe that Allah has shape and also has face and that shape is as H. Alis face (recite salwat on him) I will be happy if some one in this forum prooves me wrong otherwise I will start to believe tha Allah does have shape, his shape was in form of H.Ali and now in our current H.Imam, that is as simple as this, if you open your eyes widly and clearly you can see that sorry Admin some time I have to be open.

H.Musa[as] is the only prophet that we know of after prophet Enoch in bible who spoke directly to god and hence he is given the title = "KalimAllah" meaning the one who spoke with divine.

You and me may have few disagreements as to what avatar did allah chose to manifest himself in front of prophet musa[as] but the bottom line remains the same that he is the one who spoke to god one on one.

I also agree with you that god created humankind in his own shape but I think even you'll agree that allah[swt] is not time or shape bound. So if a person who is a non ismaili but a believing human being who believes in one god and do good, allah[swt] can appear him in any form and shape.

I believe that allah[swt] does have human attributes but he is not hidden in one body of imam e zaman ....I think he manifests in any form and shape given your intellect and spiritual strength.

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:25 pm

With an inner sight look at the World's mystery
The outward sight cannot discover it,
This world is the stair leading to the higher world
And we must mount its steps

-Sayyidna Nasir Khusraw

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:50 pm

agakhani wrote:To those who consider themselves as Quranic scholars and hate ginans and lovez Qasidas: (no needs to point their names becausw they knows that wbom I talking about except Nuseri he has tremendous love and faith on Ali but otherwise he is amongst them!. But here he is excuser because I am also talking about H.Ali.

I am still waiting for the answer of the question which I have asked couple of days ago, let me repeat it here again; why the heck Allah say that he created Adam on his own face? When every religions including Islam agrees that God doesn't have any shape! ?
When God doesn't have any shape then how that possibles that he could had talked with prophet Moses? Because to speak with others you have to have face! but here we all believes that Allah does not have shape! if you can not satisfy me soon then I have to have believe that Allah has shape and also has face and that shape is as H. Alis face (recite salwat on him) I will be happy if some one in this forum prooves me wrong otherwise I will start to believe tha Allah does have shape, his shape was in form of H.Ali and now in our current H.Imam, that is as simple as this, if you open your eyes widly and clearly you can see that sorry Admin some time I have to be open.

maybe this verse will help us to understand

042:051 It is not for any mortal that God should speak to him, except by revelation, or from behind a veil, or that He should send a messenger and he reveal whatsoever He will, by His leave; surely He is All-high, All-wise.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:40 pm

a_27826 wrote:

maybe this verse will help us to understand

042:051 It is not for any mortal that God should speak to him, except by revelation, or from behind a veil, or that He should send a messenger and he reveal whatsoever He will, by His leave; surely He is All-high, All-wise.

Or may be this aayat that is in context to what agakhani bhai asked his question

4:164

And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses;

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:51 am

If we only realize the secrets that are hidden in holly Qur'an, we would have never said, 'Qur'an is old' or 'outdated'

We mainstreamers hay total faith in Quran and authentic Sunna of Prophet. We have no other holy books.
It is clear that mainstream Muslims will stick to Salat, swam, zakat and hajj (if financially possible) an it will not change till end of this Dunya. There will be no Prophet and only Prophet can change rituals.
Only thing many of us need to educate our future generation and learn to live and let live.

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:55 am

zznoor wrote:There will be no Prophet and only Prophet can change rituals.

This is not correct according to Shiia doctrine and school of thoughts.

Shariat has two elements:

a) moral: this element is very essential in for the well being of the society and for it to properly function. Should we remove this element, the order in the society will colaps. Examples of this is [Not to steal, kill, lie, harm others, etc...]
b) prescribed: This element however, is prescribed by those who have authority in religious and faith matters, such as The Prophet. We as Shiia Ismailies believe that after Prophet (PBUH), Imams are the rightful successor of Th Prophet, and hence has full authority over religious and faith matter, and as a result CAN alter this element of shariia, according to time and space.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:45 am

To Tret:-

Because, if I remember correctly, you were the one who was saying 'Qur'an is incomplete', 'Qur'an is old', 'Qur'an is outdated'.

Yes, I am the same person who still believes as you written above but this time I do not have any intention to try to prove whether Qur'an is right? Or otherwise? because I already withdrawn my self from this kind discussion and debates.

So lets stick with the subject of this thread or the question which I asked whether Allah has face or not!??

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:47 am

zznoor wrote:There will be no Prophet and only Prophet can change rituals.

This is not correct according to Shiia doctrine and school of thoughts.

Shariat has two elements:

a) moral: this element is very essential in for the well being of the society and for it to properly function. Should we remove this element, the order in the society will colaps. Examples of this is [Not to steal, kill, lie, harm others, etc...]
b) prescribed: This element however, is prescribed by those who have authority in religious and faith matters, such as The Prophet. Such as pray, zakat, hajj, etc... Change does not mean that the actual intention of these rituals should also be changed. It is -- like you said -- the rituals only. The intention of Hajj for example, remains the same for us, how we interpret, and not only visiting Mecca, for example. We as Shiia Ismailies believe that after Prophet (PBUH), Imams are the rightful successor of Th Prophet, and hence has full authority over religious and faith matter, and as a result CAN alter this element of shariia, according to time and space.

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:53 am

agakhani wrote:To Tret:-
Because, if I remember correctly, you were the one who was saying 'Qur'an is incomplete', 'Qur'an is old', 'Qur'an is outdated'.
Yes, I am the same person who still believes as you written above but this time I do not have any intention to try to prove whether Qur'an is right? Or otherwise? because I already withdrawn my self from this kind discussion and debates.

So lets stick with the subject of this thread or the question which I asked whether Allah has face or not!??

I don't know if one would be credible if he says something but doesn't believe in it. This is important to start off a debate. Let's put the question of 'face' a side for a second.

You quote from Qur'an, but you don't believe in it. I don't think it's gonna work! If you don't believe in Qur'an, then please don't quote it. Quote something else that you believe. i.e. Farameen mubarak, or our great Ginans or Qasidas.

About question on 'face' I already gave my answer and you are welcome to go back and read it, and please unlike some other members don't feel that I impose my ideas. I simply provide my POV and everyone's welcome to agree or disagree. I try to back my stand by providing Ayats of Qur'an, if I can or Farameen MHI, if I can, or great work of our Dai's and Pir's and Qasidas or Ginans. So, I am not sure what's wrong with that; that some folks get offended because I quote the work of some of our great Hujjats and Dai's or Pir's?

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:05 am

zznoor wrote:There will be no Prophet and only Prophet can change rituals.

tell me something.

why would a prophet or God (through a prophet) would change ritual established by his predecessors ?

and from where you you get this idea that prophets can change rituals established by their predecessors ? is it from Quran ?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:34 pm

You quote from Qur'an, but you don't believe in it. I don't think it's gonna work! If you don't believe in Qur'an,

Brother, I do believe in Quran and every Muslim if they considers themselves as Muslims then they have to have believe in Quran otherwise you can not claim your self as a Muslim.

As long as I concern let me clear it again one more time, I am Muslim first and an Ismailis second As a Muslim I do believe in Quran ( because that is the only one Quran we have, no matter it is complete or incomplete, whether it is altered or not! if we have 4-5 different Quran then it was different story for me I may have choose best Quran but that is not the case).

If you still remember then I gave you an example of 'INFECTED TOE" we are not cut whole leg because of this tiny infected tow but we wisely cut only that toe Same way apply for me as long as Quran is concern: some ayas of Quran which I ignore which I think it is altered or omitted it but other ayas I read it FYI:- I also read Quran on and off not everyday but I recite 5 Quranic ayas in my daily Du'a 3 times every day without fail.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:12 pm

H.Musa[as] is the only prophet that we know of after prophet Enoch in bible who spoke directly to god

Thanks you Shiraz seeing your post after long time!, where have you been?

You say Prophet Enoch also spoke with God? means there are two prophets who had directly spoken with God!!, till today I was thinking only prophet Moses was the only one who had conversation with God.

By the way your answer seems very decent answer but it is still not clear cut answer can you elaborate more this line:-"I believe that allah[swt] does have human attributes but he is not hidden in one body of imam e zaman" Can you describe more about the word "HUMAN ATTRIBUTES"?

To a_27826 & Shiraz,

Thanks for quoting Quranic ayas whenever some one needs it, I think you and Shiraz are best as long as Quranic ayas references are concern!, great job from you both guys.
How you find out Quranic ayas so quickly?

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:11 pm

a_27826 wrote:
zznoor wrote:There will be no Prophet and only Prophet can change rituals.

tell me something.

why would a prophet or God (through a prophet) would change ritual established by his predecessors ?

and from where you you get this idea that prophets can change rituals established by their predecessors ? is it from Quran ?

This might help
Why Do We Need Islam?
Dr. Jamal Badawi Answers FAQs by Non-Muslims

Copy and paste in your browsr
onislam.net/english/reading-islam/understanding-islam/belief/455164-why-do-we-need-islam.html

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:38 pm

agakhani wrote:How you find out Quranic ayas so quickly?

There are many on-line sites....

i use YaQuB: Yet Another Quran Browser

http://www.quranbrowser.com/

there may be others even better but i am used to the above one

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:51 pm

a_27826 wrote:
agakhani wrote:How you find out Quranic ayas so quickly?
There are many on-line sites....

i use YaQuB: Yet Another Quran Browser

http://www.quranbrowser.com/

there may be others even better but i am used to the above one

In it there are ten translators. you can choose one of them or some of them to compare translations.

i personally prefer Arberry and Palmer as best amongst these 10.

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:49 pm

agakhani wrote:
H.Musa[as] is the only prophet that we know of after prophet Enoch in bible who spoke directly to god
Thanks you Shiraz seeing your post after long time!, where have you been?

You say Prophet Enoch also spoke with God? means there are two prophets who had directly spoken with God!!, till today I was thinking only prophet Moses was the only one who had conversation with God.

I couldn't find anything about Enoch talking with God by googling. but came across this

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:14 pm

agakhani wrote:
You quote from Qur'an, but you don't believe in it. I don't think it's gonna work! If you don't believe in Qur'an,
Brother, I do believe in Quran and every Muslim if they considers themselves as Muslims then they have to have believe in Quran otherwise you can not claim your self as a Muslim.

As long as I concern let me clear it again one more time, I am Muslim first and an Ismailis second As a Muslim I do believe in Quran ( because that is the only one Quran we have, no matter it is complete or incomplete, whether it is altered or not! if we have 4-5 different Quran then it was different story for me I may have choose best Quran but that is not the case).

too bad nuseri is not around to comment on the above.

If he would had been around, I suspect his comment on above would be something like this.

As a Muslim you supposed to believe in "The Quran".

The only Quran we have is the "Imam of the Time".

The Prophet left behind Ali and not the compiled mushaf by Uthman

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:32 pm

agakhani wrote:
that is the only one Quran we have, no matter it is complete or incomplete, whether it is altered or not! if we have 4-5 different Quran then it was different story for me I may have choose best Quran but that is not the case
The the reason Uthman compiled one version and destroyed other versions/variations.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:04 pm

Ya Ali Madad:

I just asked 5 simple question on the 5 Ayats posted in simple understandable English.

I still wish direct answers to the point and not one's conviction or doctrine and derail to other content of Quran or Prophet n hidden Ayats.

For a few nursery level lines (ringa ringa roses) ,One does not escape the classroom n rush to Dean of the University.

Once again only from the content of those Ayats and questions posted by me in my last post.

To Agakhani:Ya Ali Madad

Can you translate with best ability into English an extract of a Farman in English transliteration of Gujarati.?(I may be not very perfect on it).

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:07 pm

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad:

I just asked 5 simple question on the 5 Ayats posted in simple understandable English.

I still wish direct answers to the point and not one's conviction or doctrine and derail to other content of Quran or Prophet n hidden Ayats.

For a few nursery level lines (ringa ringa roses) ,One does not escape the classroom n rush to Dean of the University.

Once again only from the content of those Ayats and questions posted by me in my last post.

To Agakhani:Ya Ali Madad

Can you translate with best ability into English an extract of a Farman in English transliteration of Gujarati.?(I may be not very perfect on it).

What's your point? Where are you going with this? Why don't you just stop beating around the bush and just say it?

Is it that you are trying to prove Qur'an wrong?

You see, my friend. You have the same problem as other mainstream brothers, and yet you call them zahiri/shariati. the issue is not with the Ayats of Qur'an, it can very well be with the translation into english [or the tafseer, whoever does it].

Like I said, if one only understood the hidden divine secrets in Qur'an, s/he would never said "Qur'an is old" or "Qur'an is outdated" or "Qur'an is fake".

One thing I'd like you [and people who think like you, such as agakhani] to remember is that, if you consider yourself ismailie, we do recite ayats from the same Qur'an that you call "old" "outdated" "tampered" and what not, in our holly Dua every day!!

apparently, proper debate which is based on intellect and knowledge is not going anywhere with you.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:56 am

apparently, proper debate which is based on intellect and knowledge is not going anywhere with you.

Thanks for your above comments, that is correct, because it is possible that I may not change my thinking about "Quran" in my whole life so, please leave me that way and move ahead and concentrate on the question I asked rather then drag and pull me in this 14 century old unsolved question and when I voluntary withdrawn my self from this kind debate.

FYI:- (Sukar Alhmdolillah) I had many chance to speak directly to MHI in past, (as a long time council members and his true murid) if I have chance this time then I will ask him this question ; Are you going to consider me as an Ismaili? because my thinking about quran is different? because I think 'Quran is incomplete!! let see what he has to say, I will post his reply here.
Do you know that? Four different Ismaili Imams quoted in their farmans that Quran is incomplete!!!??? not only this but many Shia Ulemas, aalims, and scholars also started to believe now a days that during the time of Muawia and Yazid many Quranic ayas were omitted, and changed?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:07 am

To Nuseri,

Yes I can please e-mail me.
I do not post any farmans of any Imam in this open forum since I join this forum (2008). Sorry this is my personal policy it is nothing to do with Admin and rules and regulation of this forum.

I agree with brother a_27826 that every body including my self misses you for your post I read your those post which are about H. Ali and loves towards him (SALWAT PADHO) and some post which I think interesting for me but not all.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:34 pm

a_27826 wrote

I couldn't find anything about Enoch talking with God by googling. but came across this

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away

What is interesting is that prophet enoch[as] walked with god for good 300 years[mentioned in the bible]...

Genesis 5: 21-24

When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Now there can be several interpretations here...one of which can be literal interpretation that he was in company of god as long as he lived.

However its the chapters in bible that impressed me its his own Apocryphal books [3 altogether] that caught my eye...There are 3 books of Enoch, These recount how Enoch is taken up to Heaven and is appointed guardian of all the celestial treasures, chief of the archangels, and the immediate attendant on God's throne. He is subsequently taught all secrets and mysteries and, with all the angels at his back, fulfills of his own accord whatever comes out of the mouth of God, executing His decrees.

Much esoteric literature like the 3rd Book of Enoch identifies Enoch as the Metatron, the angel which communicates God's word. In consequence, Enoch was seen, by this literature, and the Rabbinic kabbala of Jewish mysticism, as having been the one which communicated God's revelation to Moses, in particular, the dictator of the Book of Jubilees.

a_27826 · Post by **a_27826** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:12 pm

agakhani wrote:many Shia Ulemas, aalims, and scholars also started to believe now a days that during the time of Muawia and Yazid many Quranic ayas were omitted, and changed? [/b]

that's a news to me

i was under impression that Caliph Uthman authorized the compilation and canonisation of the Quranic text as we have today and after that no more changes (if there were any) were made to it after that.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:39 pm

Bro a_27826,
Find some reliable Shia history books you will find what I wrote above.I can suggest some books if you want to read.
That IS true that changes in Quran started H.Usman time but it was not ended till the Abbasi caliph Haroon Al Rashid and so on.
The Major changes were taken place during the time of Muawia and Yazid Palit that is for sure.