ROHANI ROSHNI,An understanding.

[zznoor]

Second, who issued fatwa against you by expressing your view? Please go ahead and express your opinion, and be open minded to listen to ours. I requested you to give your opinion and view of what I had posted in my last reply to you, but got no answer/feedback from you. It's okay if you don't have anything to say now, or you are digesting it. Totally fine by me.

I have noted your questions and I fear answers would derail this thread upsetting Admin.

considered Ismailis as a " KAFIROON" many times in past !! Don't you believe this? then ask brother 'SHMASB' he will agree with me brother Shams please correct me if I am wrong, please..

Read sura Kafiroon.
First line orders Prophet to say to Kafiroon

To you your religion and to me mine (something like this)
Muslims should not use this to defend their different practice and Prophets Sunna.
I have not called anybody Kafir I just explained to whom Sura is addressed.

[tret]

I have noted your questions and I fear answers would derail this thread upsetting Admin.

I agree with Admin and it's always good forums etiquette to stick to the topic of the discussion; but in this case, I am pretty sure Admin can make an exception and it would benefit everyone! Besides, I don't believe discussing this particular subject would be worst. So I am requesting you again, please go ahead and give your POV. I am confident that Admin would be okay, so long as we are respectful to each other and don't use offensive and vulgar languages.

[Admin]

Stick to the thread please. There are already other threads where other subjects are discussed, it is better to discuss other topics there.

[tret]

Stick to the thread please. There are already other threads where other subjects are discussed, it is better to discuss other topics there.

Admin - Do you know what I asked zznoor to provide feedback? I believe that is still related to the topic of the discussion. Besides, so long as it doesn't violate the rules of the forums, i don't think one should seek permission. It's my humble opinion. Now, zznoor may not have an appropriate response [or any response], and tries to avoid it by pretending to derail the discussion, but i still feel that it's all inter-connected and one leads to other.

Like I said, it's okay by me, if zznoor doesn't have any respond. But, if she pretends to have one, then avoiding it by pretending to derail the discussion topic, then I don't think that's fair. Convince me, or be convinced; or just agree to disagree respectfully, is all i am asking.

[agakhani]

Admin,
I agree with brother Tret let her answers the Queston he asked!
As I wrote above she is out of her all weapons,
Tret will you please repeat your question here one more time so brother Admin can know it, because he has too many works to do and travels a lot so it is possible that he might not read your question first.

[tret]

okay, here it is: This is addressed to sister zznoor! Admin can pass his judgement.

=====================================
You didn't answer my question about dualism/duality, so what do you think? Look at this picture, and it's my favourite example. If you look closely at the picture, just by slightly changing your preception, you will see a young girl. But, if you change your preception slightly, you can also see an older woman. The point I want to prove is that the picture does not change. It is the same picture. It's the observer's preception that changes. It's the observer who can see two pictures hidden in one. Now, it all depends on what observer wants to see. There could be folks who can not see the second hidden image in this picture at the beginning. But, if she pays closer attention and ready to see the image from another preception, she could find the second image.

So, people who don't believe in Imamat and the importance of Imamat are totally ignoring to see the second Image in the picture. But, if you are ready to change your preception, you will see the second image in the picture and you will be amazed!


Maula Ali and Imams (And Prophets) live in on this earth, and HAS TO live in a human body!! But, body is not what's essential, it's the soul(noor) what's important and eternal! According to us [Ismailies] Imams don't die, they "change cloth" [that's the closest translation I can do]. In other words, the noor of Imam is passed to the next Imam and will be carried forward till day of judgement "Haws-i-kawsar".

True that there's no revelation came to Maula Ali and Imams, but there is no need to. Because as Muslim first of all, we believe that Prophet Mohammad is the last of the Prophets and there will NOT be any other prophets; however, the very most importatn thing that our sunni brothers missed is that during the era of beloved Prophet, Prophetship ended BUT, constitution of Imamat began.

God will never leave us [humans] without a guide. That's why our beloved Prophet promised us and said that He would leave two weighty things behind and whomever hangs on to them, will find salvation. Those two weighty things are 1) Qur'an 2) His Ahl-ul bayte [Zuryah of Imamat].

Imams they don't do just good things; Imams presence in this world are of immense importantce. You see, not only Ismailies benifit from the work of Aga Khan (our beloved MHI), but other people who are qualified regardless of their faith, race, or background.

BTW, for your information, Qur'an is not authored by anyone. Qur'an is revealed to our beloved Prophet. He didn't author it. It's just for you information.

I want to ask you one simple question, and I am sure you are a very intellegent person.
During the time of our beloved Prophet when a person wanted to gave bayhat to become Muslim, they would come to the Prophet and gave their bayhat. Now, in this day and age, lets say a non-muslim wants to become a muslim; who would he gave his bayhat to? [don't tell me to a corner's mawlawi]! Now, one with some intellect might ask "It's not my fault that I was not born during the time of our Prophet to give my bayhat to the Prophet" So, if you think logically with some intellect, then you SHOULD realize that the same HAND must be present today too. It's our responsibility to find that hand. We [ismailies] are already blessed.





http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http ... AQ&dur=434

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad:
I feel Admin is happy that pages of forum are filling up with 'TU TU MAI MAI'
debate between two Haqiqati n one Tariqati on one side n copy paste Sharaiti on one side.
Each has it own level n limitation n conviction. I would say each is right of it's own level of conviction and has indifferent view of others conviction because of it own level or limitation,if one is at lower level.
for example at Nursery level a square piece of hard cardboard is given to child to paint or stick color paper on it on one side.
the child is only aware of side of it where it colours it .(Zahir common sense))
In primary school the same cardboard square is shown as two side in maths
the front one n back one. that is side A and Side B.( Zahir n Baatin,rational sense)

Now at college level come the thickness of the cardboard which is 1/10 th of centimeters.so even the thickness of other four sides is visibly seen by looking closely at it.( zahit baatin n noorani).

so the cardboard originally had six sides but observations differed
at different level of Intellect.(Ilm)

What I see the nursery child .student , college all right at level there explained by their teachers.
Here it is one crybaby nursery child ,a pesky student with two dimension conviction and 2 blessed doctorates( as they have said for themselves) acknowledging it as slim cube and trying to understand it.

I many a times do not reply as I am aware of one's limitation or conviction of the topic being debated.

So is case of Ayats in Quran,Imam's Farman and in Ginans n Qasidas.

The debate will never end.

I wish for ShamsB to acknowledge and in times ahead the equation
of Ali+lah=Allah.( ALI ALI bandwidth) from his blessed status of' Ali Allah'.

IF HALF A WORD IS ENOUGH ,THEN WHY WASTE TIME IN TWO WORDS?

[tret]

I would say each is right of it's own level of conviction..

In a debate both sides can't be right, for truth is not subjective unlike your example.

[zznoor]

I would say each is right of it's own level of conviction..

In a debate both sides can't be right, for truth is not subjective unlike your example.

There are subjects where debates goes on for ever
Example
Imamat, climate change etc.

[tret]

I would say each is right of it's own level of conviction..

In a debate both sides can't be right, for truth is not subjective unlike your example.

There are subjects where debates goes on for ever
Example
Imamat, climate change etc.

The reason is simple. Because the losing side doesn't accept and nor has any answer. I guess we already know who that side is.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
I will try to give another example,when I said each is right to it's level( there is rider attached of 'conviction to right',the word 'right' is not absolute.

If there is glass nearly half filled with water on a table.

A Zahiri will say that glass is half full with water .It's final.(crybaby).

A Tariqati at rational sense (acknowledging Zahir n Baatin) will say it half full with water and half empty.

Now to the Intellects ,Our doctorate's (their specialization is still suspense) brethren.
will observe the reality of water being H20 and say is 48% full,clarity of glass 99%,clarity of water xx.x %.etc etc.They say the Haqiqat of glass and it's content.They are also right.

To a Sufi the same glass half filled with water.He sees the same glass,which other 3 may not have observed.It is half FULL with water and Half FULL with Air.
A human life cannot survive without both of these and Air being more important.He see both water n Air as absolute need essence of Life.
He personifies the whole glass and it's content as FULL of life.He gives valid reasoning also.
He says Glass is 'full of Life'.An out of mind n books( I read 4000 somewhere of it) statement but very much out of his soul (Spritiual Intellect).

Now each within it's understanding horizon will call an other one
ignorant,blind,kufr,fool,mad etc.

In this word only Half truth is seen.A human being is seen but NOT much seen such as soul and it's level and even GOD can be seen.

I would still say each is right at it's own level n limitation and wrong from others level.

To tret: Ya Ali Madad.
It's good to see you 3 have mostly Shut the candle shop of the Shariati.She could have many candles from the closet of skeletons.

YAAR USKO APNEE IMAAN PE CHORD DO.

'Our Sufi Tariqa 'is the words very much by our beloved Imam's Farmayeen

The notion carried by western scholars at narrowly looking to Sufism
as mystical s as dervish shunning the worldly responsibility. swirling
turkish dancers,etc

That is not so in case of us Ismaile.It is to gain spiritual bliss and Intellect along with regular daily life duties and obligation and not running away from the world.







,

[zznoor]

What happened?
Everybody fell off ROHANI ROSHNI train?

[zznoor]

It's good to see you 3 have mostly Shut the candle shop of the Shariati.She could have many candles from the closet of skeletons.

It looks like somebody has shut down your ROHANi ROSHNI candle!

[nuseri]

To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.

AAP KO TO RUH KA 'EHSAAS' HI NAHI.

TO AAP USKI ROSHNI KYA 'KAAKH' SHAMJOGI.

AAP TO BUS MOMBATTI KI ROSHNI SE
MAR MAR KE SHAYAD JEE RAHI HO.

NAA RAHI GHAR KI NAA GHAT KI.

AB TO 'MAUT' HI CHUTKARA DENGE AAP KO.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.

I need some info from Scholars.

I just wish to know the ages of the below entity when they died and what was average lifespan of normal population in those period ?

1.Salman Al Farsi.

2.A stalwart in Fatimid,who funeral prayers were led by Imam Moizz.

3.Hassan bin Sabbah.

I am not properly educated person and express it openly and many times do seek information from the learned scholars.

[tret]

Shariat is candle to show you the path [tariqat], which would lead you to your destination [haqiqat], once you are at your destination [haqiqat] you no longer need the candle; you may turn it off.

Candle[shariat] is very useful when it's dark, and is advised to be kept really close to you, but once there's sun the use of candle[shariat] is obsolete.

Now, you [zznoor] may feel you need to stick with the candle, but the question is for how long? Have you found your path [tariqat], which would lead you to your destination [haqiqat]? If and when you realize that, then you, yourself would turn off the candle, because it wouldn't make sense.

to live at your destination[haqiqat], once you get there is mahrifat, where candle/path/destination itself becomes irrelevant. There's a beautiful verse, I'd like to mention here.

من تو شدم تو من شدی، من تن شدم تو جان شدی
تا کس نگوید بعد از این، تو دیگری من دیگرم

Translation:
I became you, you became me, I became body, you became soul
So, no one says, you are one and I am another.

[tret]

Jesus had similar problem in revealing the message from God.

Jesus is supposed to have said “I and God are one”. Some people took it literally.

Good observation, but I'd like to think that let's remember that Hz Issah AS, was one of the Prophets [Paighambar-i-Mursal) and not just a Messenger, who had revelation. There must be a very good reasoning and explanation why He said what he said. I mean, if we think the world must be all perfect, because God can decide whatever He wants and that will happen, then why everything in the world is not just perfect? Why there are so many problems, even with during the Prophets our Imams and etc? So, I don't think we should try and correct what the Prophets should have said or done. And instead try to find out why He said what he said or done. crucification of Jesus must have a better/more important explanation and why He went through that torture. It's for us to find out.

[shiraz.virani]

Admin wrote :

There is a hadith reported by Aisha. It goes like this: The Prophet said that he just got some Ayat from Jibrail but I only saw hie talking with the barefoot Salman,

I guess this may be the source of that belief that Salman was Jibrail

But there is also in a text of Massignon on Hallaj, the following hierarchy: A - S - M

Ali - Salman - Muhammad.


Self explanatory

So is nuseri using hadiths to back this claim up ??? ....Because on one hand he says hadiths are man made or what not and on the other hand we are using man made hadiths to justify this man made story ???

I'm not against this concept of Salman Farsi being an angel I just need to know from where did nuseri got this info from....any proofs ???

[nuseri]

To Shiraz:Ya Ali Madad.

This hadith is a documented of a visible statement.that a clear proof.You do not believe In Baatin or Haqiati convictions.Certain thing need convictions.

You believe in black n white statements of dead persons,You got it

I presume you are a Great Fan of Al Hallaj status of Truth,whose thread you authored with gist.Please try to see what Massingon has written about Al Hallaj's (mr Truth) conviction
as you went gaga over Al Hallaj,akin one gone gaga for doomsday date and one for three words of attribute of ALI.

As I do not have Massingons work to read,I presume you n Admin can post what was the reasoning of Hallaj's conviction of hierarchy as ALI followed by Salman and Mohammed. I have my belief that Al Hallaj must not have lied because the state he was GOD spoke out of him.something like your another favourite Lord Krishna.Sorry I forgot to mention your currents favourite Katrina Kaif.(Chere pee noor aa gaya)

There could better hint as Hadith of Aisha has given.

You wrote few pages of Lord Krishna (a normal like human being) spoke as God.
What is your proof that A human being cannot be GOD?
Proof proof proof.
You yourself absolutely believe in Noor of Krishna ( a human being)and hold a contarian view of MHI.

KAISA IILM AUR KYA IMAAN

[shiraz.virani]

To Shiraz:Ya Ali Madad.

Mawla ali madad

This hadith is a documented of a visible statement.that a clear proof.You do not believe In Baatin or Haqiati convictions.Certain thing need convictions.

Documented where and what about its authenticity ??

You believe in black n white statements of dead persons,You got it

I sure do !!!.... even our pirs have to write ginans in black and white to make sure the future generations won't go astray.

I presume you are a Great Fan of Al Hallaj status of Truth,whose thread you authored with gist.Please try to see what Massingon has written about Al Hallaj's (mr Truth) conviction
as you went gaga over Al Hallaj,akin one gone gaga for doomsday date and one for three words of attribute of ALI.

You are sooo full of it mate... as soon as admin tried to give his input you just jumped onto his ship throwing him into the water.

Massignon is not aga khan nor NANA KHAN [chota imam] that I would treat his words or work as patther ki lakeer....He has also written not so good stuff about islam so should I believe that too ???

Tret/ Agakhani and there are others like me who are monitoring your posts very closely and time and again we have told you to back you posts up with credible proofs.

As I do not have Massingons work to read,I presume you n Admin can post what was the reasoning of Hallaj's conviction of hierarchy as ALI followed by Salman and Mohammed. I have my belief that Al Hallaj must not have lied because the state he was GOD spoke out of him.something like your another favourite Lord Krishna.Sorry I forgot to mention your currents favourite Katrina Kaif.(Chere pee noor aa gaya)

Katrina kaif, bahahahahaha....Good one

There could better hint as Hadith of Aisha has given.

Exactly !!!.....So where are they ??

You wrote few pages of Lord Krishna (a normal like human being) spoke as God.
What is your proof that A human being cannot be GOD?
Proof proof proof.
You yourself absolutely believe in Noor of Krishna ( a human being)and hold a contarian view of MHI.

KAISA IILM AUR KYA IMAAN

Contarian ??
Mere bhai go back to those posts again and read what proof I gave in that context....the proof lies in eternal scriptures and not some man made hadiths.

Where is your proof of salman farsi = archangel, hmmm ???

Read all my posts, I still believe that Imamat is the highest office or post ever known to mankind...It is the highest honor bestowed on the family of Imam Ali[as] and his progeny.

[Admin]

Massignon is not aga khan nor NANA KHAN [chota imam] that I would treat his words or work as patther ki lakeer....He has also written not so good stuff about islam so should I believe that too ???

Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah said Massignon was amongst the few ones that understood religion. I wish the Imam would say the same of someone in this period.

[nuseri]

To Shiraz Virani.Ya Ali Madad.
You better stick to Katrina Kaif as other three Entities are of Era long gone by.

AGAR KHUDHA KO DEKH SAKHO GE TO USKE KHIDMATGAR
ZIBRAAEL FARISTE JAISE KHIDMATGAR TO AHLE BAYT KE SAATH
DEKH SAKHE GO JAISE KE SALMAN,SABBAH,PEERBHOY .KO SAMAJ
SAKHO GE.

Even in a Farman of MHI ,He said that the Thinking of Al Hallaj is part of our Tariqa inspite being non Ismaili.

For a down to earth a practical rationalist will say a glass half full and half empty. will defy all logic's and conclusion of present day Science the content and values of empty part.

Will say proof proof proof (woof woof woof)?

As your inbuilt frame of mind and data. You will say I do not see 'Air' with my eyes,So I do not believe.
for those 'Unseen' category there are many Ayats in Quran.
You would believe in Katrina Kaif as you can see her..
YOUR BELIEF IS YOUR FATE N FORTUNE
AND SAME IS FOR ME.
Different levels cannot compromise or meet on many issues or placed in an elevated building.

To Admin:Ya Ali Madad.
I was also unaware of Massingon understanding of Baatin as words Imam SMS are understood fairly by me.
Could you please expand or print the Al Hallaj statements in context to Salman Farsi.



To:Agakhani and other scholars on Hinduism.Ya Ali Madad
Was there any Prophet type entity and also one devoted servant in Life time of Lord Krishna on earth?
As I take lord Krishna as ALI, any clue of trinatan theory of Alawis

BTW in Italian/Latin language ALI means Air.

GLASS AADHA KHALI NAHI HAI.

DEKHNE WALE DIMAG SHAYAD.

[tret]

As I take lord Krishna as ALI

Oh I see where you stand now!!! It all make sense. You still believe what you [your ancestors] did before converting to Ismailie, you simply replaced the word krishna with ali, is all?

If you consider yourself an Ismailie [or a Muslim], then leave it to hindus to praise and worship, krishna/vidia/gita/sha rukh khan. I am sure they must be great people, but we have our path[tariqa] and they have theirs.

[ismaili103]

As I take lord Krishna as ALI

Oh I see where you stand now!!! It all make sense. You still believe what you [your ancestors] did before converting to Ismailie, you simply replaced the word krishna with ali, is all?

If you consider yourself an Ismailie [or a Muslim], then leave it to hindus to praise and worship, krishna/vidia/gita/sha rukh khan. I am sure they must be great people, but we have our path[tariqa] and they have theirs.

YAM

Tret brother he said "he take lord krishna as ALI" so what is wrong in this statement.

our ancestors are not MAD who recites name of 77 patras in their DUA by PIR SADARDIN...even after converting to ISMAILISM...and they recite it till 19 or 20th centuary nt so far..

77 patras consist( RAM , KRISHNA aswell)

If you belive in 49 Imam then as an ismaili u should know that IMAMAT WAS EVER, IS EVER and WILL EVER.....

There are many Farmans and GInans which clearly said that Ram,Krishna, are Imam of the time...not only these even Haroon, simon peter, hz Abu talib etc All are Imam(NOOR OF ALI)...

YAM

[agakhani]

I totally agree with you Shinan by the way I also consider Krishna and Rama as our imams during their times but considering them as our imam and quoting some sloka from gita and Ramayan some guys considered me and lebled me as Hindu. thanks for this nawajish.

[tret]

As I said, everyone has their own path [tariqa], and mine is Shia Imami Ismaili Muslim, no attachments no strings!

I certainly don't complain about others. After all in the journey of soul searching and self-realization one doesn't need others. You believe in what you believe, all powers to you and I am glad for you, if it makes you feel good.

[tereishqnachaya]

As I said, everyone has their own path [tariqa], and mine is Shia Imami Ismaili Muslim, no attachments no strings!

I certainly don't complain about others. After all in the journey of soul searching and self-realization one doesn't need others. You believe in what you believe, all powers to you and I am glad for you, if it makes you feel good.

I thought Ismailism says that Krishna was a prophet?

[ismaili103]

I totally agree with you Shinan by the way I also consider Krishna and Rama as our imams during their times but considering them as our imam and quoting some sloka from gita and Ramayan some guys considered me and lebled me as Hindu. thanks for this nawajish.

your welcome....

my personal belive is that those ismaili whom background is nt frm subcontinent has no belive in dasavatar,evolution,etc...thats nt there fault and its nt a sin ,i think language matters.......our centarl asian ismailis have persian so i think if they cant understand Ginans they need to find concept of dasavatr in qasidas and i bet they get it frm qasidas...

I think brother tret is also frm central asian background.....????

[tret]

As I take lord Krishna as ALI

Oh I see where you stand now!!! It all make sense. You still believe what you [your ancestors] did before converting to Ismailie, you simply replaced the word krishna with ali, is all?

If you consider yourself an Ismailie [or a Muslim], then leave it to hindus to praise and worship, krishna/vidia/gita/sha rukh khan. I am sure they must be great people, but we have our path[tariqa] and they have theirs.

YAM

Tret brother he said "he take lord krishna as ALI" so what is wrong in this statement.

our ancestors are not MAD who recites name of 77 patras in their DUA by PIR SADARDIN...even after converting to ISMAILISM...and they recite it till 19 or 20th centuary nt so far..

77 patras consist( RAM , KRISHNA aswell)

If you belive in 49 Imam then as an ismaili u should know that IMAMAT WAS EVER, IS EVER and WILL EVER.....

There are many Farmans and GInans which clearly said that Ram,Krishna, are Imam of the time...not only these even Haroon, simon peter, hz Abu talib etc All are Imam(NOOR OF ALI)...

YAM

Imam is the one who's son [any male decedent] is Imam!

Now Haroon has a level to H Musa, the same as H ALI has to The Prophet. This is called Martabat (level).

Hz Musa was Natiq (The same level as The Prophet) where Haroon was Asas (The same level as Imam who was to The Prophet).

Now, if we confuse the level of Asas to be equated as Imam, than that's a fine line.

May be lord krishna was compared to be as important as an Imam during his age and time? Now, that makes scense. But to declare him [krishna] as Imam, I am not too sure about that, brother! As we all know/believe that institution of Imamat began at Imam ALI, when Nabuwat ended at The Prophet Muhammad.

However, I do believe that Noor of Maula ALI was there from the very beginning!! And will continue to be here till Haws-e-Kawsar!

[Admin]

The institution of Imamate did not begin when the Naboowat ended. In fact the Prophet 9PBUH) did not appoint Hazrat Ali as Imam, he pointed out that Hazrat ali is the Imam.