Pir or Mustawda Imam

[mazharshah]

Your above statement is more complex than the complex farman of Imam. I could not understood what you want to explain.
Sir, when Imam is Natiq, Pir is Samit. Interpreter of faith is Imam. In JK, I heard only missionary saheb or chairman of ITREB explaining farman.
You wrote," Farmans and Ginans are same". Do you consider Sayyedah Imam
Begum's ginans are farman? Please explain.

The concept of Imam as Natiq and Pir as Samit are zaheri concepts. They do not have much significance in our Tariqa. I have never heard a Farman when the Imam says his the Natiq.

Remember our faith did not start 1400 years ago. It has existed since creation. Hence from the batin Imam is always above every other concepts.Imamat and Piratan existed before the Natiq and Asas were invented.

To Km,

If Natiq and Samit are Zaheri concepts then why still are we running after these terms and wasting our time, Prophet was Natiq and Imam was Samit!!!
I wander our Ismaili Tariqa EXISTED SINCE CREATION. Why is this not clearly mentioned in Ismaili histories and in text books of REC's? Still we keep running after Ta'weel, Taqiyya, and Batin. Today's REC students want clear and understandable facts and figures.

[agakhani1]

PS.
I do not have internet access all the time because of vacation ut I wil sure answer yoor wrong accusations in ansence of mine. for now forget forget about 18 sons of pir Hasan Kabirdin or Syed,Imam Shah think about your own shelf which shows that you are almost left this sect in wrong teaching of your mentor.

[mazharshah]

Your assertion is that every pir has same noor i Muhammad, in other words you are saying pir has noor of Muhammad and not of Ali. You know this Hadith, "ANNA WA ALIYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID". It proves Muhammad and Ali are same. So pir has twin noor of Muhammad and Ali, or half of Muhammad and half of Ali makes one unit. What about book Pindiyat i Jawanmardi, is it true the book contains noor i MuhammadI and noor i Ali. Pir Sadruddin has said ,

SHAFAYAT YARA MUHAMMAD KARSEY.

At all times the Imam is both the Shah and the Pir. Hence he is the Mazhar of the Essence. The Essence also contains the Nur of Piratan. Hence at all time his Nur is also equivalent of the Nur of the Pir. So just as the Nur of Ali and Muhammad were equal, similarly the Nur of Sri Islam Shah and the Nur of Pir Sadardeen were equal. Nabi Muhammad was the Pir first, his role as the Prophet of Mankind was incidental.

To Km,

So at a time Ali was creator, prophet was creator, Pir Shams and Pir Sadruddin were creators, even Pindiyat e Jawan mardi was a creator. So many creators in Ismaili Tariqa. I am lost!!

[Admin]

I am lost!!

yes we know! Glad you also realised it now.

[Admin]

To Km,
You wrote," Farmans and Ginans are same".

In page 233 of manuscript Indic 2534.(Houghton Library), Harvard University,. there is a Farman written in Khojki by an eye-witness (he described also what Imam said and did, for example at the end, he said Imam said "Allah Hafiz" before leaving....)

That Farman (4th line from the top of the page) dated 1899 says exactly this: that "Ginan and Farmans are the same".

[kmaherali]

Mostly ginans which are recited in JK'S today were written in life time of his father. There is no proper research that after returning from Iran he stayed on ismaili Tariqa as I have read in some articles.

You have not read the entire artcile in the link that I provided. Sayyed Imam Shah was only 19 years old when his father passed away. The article states:

"During his missionary career spanning nearly seventy years, he is reported to have composed hundred and four volumes of religious prose (six) and prosody (eight); apart from more than two hundred and twenty nine Ginans. His main works extent today are: Atharved Gavantri, Gugri na das ginan, Bai Budhai, Naklank Gita, Moman Chetamani, To Munivar Bhai, Vistol, Jannatpuri, Mul Gayetri yane shrushtinun mandan an renure hidayat, Satveni (Nani), Das Avatar (Moto), Jhankar, Man Sanjamni (Nani), Muibandh sol thal, Char Chowk with seventeen Ginans, and hundred and sixty two Ginans etc..."

Do you think all the work could have been done before he was 19 years old?

The artcile further states:

"From his works, it appears that he remained a steadfast and devoted servant of the Ismaili cause (he is said to have served four successive Imams-Imam Muhammad Bin Islam Shah, Imam Mustansir bi'l-lah II, Imam Abd-us Salam and Imam Gharib Mirza) throughout his life, successfully brought thousands of Hindu families to the Ismaili fold in Saurashtra (Gujrat, Kathiawar and Kutch). From his own works or contemporary sources of history, no proof of his supposed deviation from the Ismaili sect can be traced, which belies the popular belief that because of his disappointment on the Piratan issue, he struck on his own and founded the Imamshahi sect. To all intents and purposes, this actually appears to be the accomplishment of his son, Syed Muhammad Shah alias Nar Muhammad Shah, who renegaded from the Ismaili faith of his fore-fathers after his father's death and founded a separate sect i.e. the Imamshahi Panth."

Please read the whole article at:

http://www.ismaili.net/hero/hero25.html

This article was part of the volume comprised of 33 heroes. The volume was sent to MHI. The messages of the Nurani family are provide in the link below.
http://www.ismaili.net/herocont.html

[kmaherali]

If Natiq and Samit are Zaheri concepts then why still are we running after these terms and wasting our time, Prophet was Natiq and Imam was Samit!!!
I wander our Ismaili Tariqa EXISTED SINCE CREATION. Why is this not clearly mentioned in Ismaili histories and in text books of REC's? Still we keep running after Ta'weel, Taqiyya, and Batin. Today's REC students want clear and understandable facts and figures.

Our Jamat is a diversity which involves different perspectives or strands of Ismailism. The Satpanth Ismailism is practised by the Khojas and according to this tradition our faith existed since creation. Then we have traditions stemming from Nasir Khusraw which emphasize that Ismailism began 1400 years ago and the Imam is the inheritor of the Prophet.

The role of the zaheri concepts is to articulate our faith in a manner consistent with the rest of the Muslims, and which does not give offence. In other words it is the 'cover' of our faith. The batini dimension which is the essence is usually articulated within the Jamat. The Imams have made it quite clear that the Noor of Imamat must always exist. Once you appreciate that, then the notions of Natiq and Samit become less significant.

Also our Talim material is also shared by other Muslims with minor adjustments. Hence we cannot include the batini aspects of our faith in it.

[ismaili103]

So at a time Ali was creator, prophet was creator, Pir Shams and Pir Sadruddin were creators, even Pindiyat e Jawan mardi was a creator. So many creators in Ismaili Tariqa. I am lost!!

Thanks to Al mighty Mowla Ali, you realize that you are lost.

Now I will not give you any Ginanic verse and Farman to tell you how Pir and Imam are same and how they are creator but one, cause you are a non ismaili who cant understand the abc of Ismailism

Well note my words , when you dies and when you see that Allah is none other but Mowlana Hazir Imam, then dont get shocked but keep cursing yourself

[kmaherali]

So at a time Ali was creator, prophet was creator, Pir Shams and Pir Sadruddin were creators, even Pindiyat e Jawan mardi was a creator. So many creators in Ismaili Tariqa. I am lost!!

Yes indeed you are lost! You do not have the understanding of what it means to be elevated. When an individual makes progress and elevates himself, the drop becomes the Ocean. Hence any elevated person can become the Creator. Even you can become the creator if you made the effort! There is more on this at:

can humans BE God?
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ht=mansoor

[mazharshah]

PS.
I do not have internet access all the time because of vacation ut I wil sure answer yoor wrong accusations in ansence of mine. for now forget forget about 18 sons of pir Hasan Kabirdin or Syed,Imam Shah think about your own shelf which shows that you are almost left this sect in wrong teaching of your mentor.

To AK,

My mentor is my present Imam Shah Karim. I obey his farmans.

[mazharshah]

I am lost!!

yes we know! Glad you also realised it now.

I am lost because of wrong interpretations, twisted facts, not accepting Quran, not accepting Nahjul Balagha because it is 1400 years old sayings of Mowla ALI,not accepting Fatimid theology and interpretations of our Da'is even neglecting Qadi Noaman. Not accepting guidance prescribed in our Du'a when majotity even don't know meaning of Du'a. Forget me, you people are pushing our new generations to wrong direction.

[mazharshah]

To Km,
You wrote," Farmans and Ginans are same".

In page 233 of manuscript Indic 2534.(Houghton Library), Harvard University,. there is a Farman written in Khojki by an eye-witness (he described also what Imam said and did, for example at the end, he said Imam said "Allah Hafiz" before leaving....)

That Farman (4th line from the top of the page) dated 1899 says exactly this: that "Ginan and Farmans are the same".

My assertion is that farmans are superior than ginans. Ginans are type of Bhajans as admitted by Mr. AK and no one challenged him including his nephew 103. Bhajans and gaaiki was popular at that time that's why pirs converted Hindus of that time easily with out bloodshed by composing ginans
by mixing Hindu mythology. At 600/700 years back ginans used as tool for conversion. Please keep in mind I am not blaming pirs. They did their job excellently.

[mazharshah]

So this is the attitude, discipline and manners of a so called follower of Imam, I wander have you learn this kind of attitude from ginans!!!!
You have given me 3 stars, I shall give you 4 stars.
Infact Gupti jamait was Hindu, MSMS dealt with them in different way. Near partition MSMS asked them to become openly Mulims and changeto Islamic names. Go in ITREB library in Karachi, read old documents and research. Be in your senses; KAHEI(N) CHOTT NA LAG JAAI AABGINO KO.

Jaisi bimari waisa ilaj
Ghee seedhi ungli se naa nikle to ugli teyri krni parti hai

Gupti ismailies were never a hindu, they perform hindu rituals because they are leaving in between fundamentalist hindus. And gupti ismailies are not only found in india but they are also in Iran, central Asia and China near uighur county.

When I used the phrase gupti jamait, I meant guptis of subcontinent in relation to guidance of MSMS. Their names were Hindu and they followed
HINDUISM TRADITIONS. I had heard many stories from the gupti jamait who migrated from East Punjab to Pakistan. AB TERI UNGLIYA(N) AUR TERA DAMAG TERRA HAI TO MAI KIYA KARU(N).

[agakhani1]

As long as Gupti Ismailis are concern then let me tell this : Ismailis guptis are not just limited to Hindu Guptis only there are still many Gupti Ismailis they do not wants comes in lights but they follows ismaili sect! Some are Christians, some are Sunnys and some doesn't have their own religion at all! they are no religions persons but they secretly follows Ismaili sect, they are hidIden but they are every where!!!

[Admin]

I remember when I visit Bhawnagar Guptis, I went to their secret Jamatkhana. Outwardly their wedding and funeral were same as the Hindus amongst whom they lived but their cermony were same as ours, except Jk lasted 3 times longer.

The Mukhi of the time (1988) was outwardly an Imam Shahi but none of the Imam Shahis knew he was Ismaili and on top, Mukhi appointed by Hazar Imam for the Guptis.

He told me an anecdote: Some of our institutional people went to Sultan Muhammad Shah and asked permission to go preached in the Gupti jamat of Bhawnagar. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said the Iman of the Gupti Jamat was strong and they were good ismailis.

Then Imam added, first make sure you yourself are good Ismailis and then talk of making others better.

[nuseri]

To admin:Ya Ali madad.
Do you wish to delete all my postings on this topic? It is time for cocky eyed jeerewallahs
To move from relative truth like water=ice= steam but know n accept that absolute truth of water is hydrogen dioxide.
What can b same is not always equal.

[Admin]

To admin:Ya Ali madad.
Do you wish to delete all my postings on this topic?

Sure, I have already explained that any posting with offensive language will be deleted. So why the question?

[mazharshah]

Is there any connection between BRHAMA KU(N)WARIES and Ismailis or Imam Shahis, because their head quarter is near mount Eboo where Ismailis and Imam Shahis are living.

[mazharshah]

Is book Pindiyaat e Jawan mardi creator of universe also?

[mazharshah]

Your assertion is that every pir has same noor i Muhammad, in other words you are saying pir has noor of Muhammad and not of Ali. You know this Hadith, "ANNA WA ALIYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID". It proves Muhammad and Ali are same. So pir has twin noor of Muhammad and Ali, or half of Muhammad and half of Ali makes one unit. What about book Pindiyat i Jawanmardi, is it true the book contains noor i MuhammadI and noor i Ali. Pir Sadruddin has said ,

SHAFAYAT YARA MUHAMMAD KARSEY.

At all times the Imam is both the Shah and the Pir. Hence he is the Mazhar of the Essence. The Essence also contains the Nur of Piratan. Hence at all time his Nur is also equivalent of the Nur of the Pir. So just as the Nur of Ali and Muhammad were equal, similarly the Nur of Sri Islam Shah and the Nur of Pir Sadardeen were equal. Nabi Muhammad was the Pir first, his role as the Prophet of Mankind was incidental.

A senior missinary told me some time back that in 50's and 60's there was a debate, whether Prophet was first pir or Hazrat Hasan was first pir? Actually, he replied me when I asked him why MSMS not included names of pir in current Du'a. Can you elaborate further that ' his role as the Prophet of mankind was incidental'?

[agakhani1]

The answers of your above two questions
1, Yes, if you are really an Ismaili then you should knows that! and why? You should knows that.
2, No, imamshahi HQ is in Pirana

One question:
Are you still not satisfied yet in your all no sense makings and weird questions? In those questions you have been tried to prove Ismaili pirs wrong! But look at you! You miserably failed in your that efforts to proven Ismailis pirs are wrong! yes they are true and they have dewine powers so it doesn't make any different whether it is a book or a lady.

[mazharshah]

So this is the attitude, discipline and manners of a so called follower of Imam, I wander have you learn this kind of attitude from ginans!!!!

These kind of Behaviour I learnt from fake quran, you know better fake quran is famous for creating instability in world like jihaad. On the other hand if I follow the teachings of ALL THE GINANS BY PIR, I WILL NOT HERE TO DEBATE WITH YOU, BECAUSE TEACHING IS GINAN WILL MAKE ME A PIOUS GUY.

Imam kissed the Holy Quran in public which some participants of this forum consider fake Quran. In other words Imam was endorsing jihaad by kissing Quran isn't it? By kissing Quran Imam sent a public message that not only he but his followers also respect and act according to Quran.

[mazharshah]

The phrase Imam Mustawda was not in use till Fatimid Caliphate. Before Fatimids, Hazrat Hasan was considered as Imam Mustaqqar after Mowla Ali. Even Imam Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq in their sermons mentioned Hazrat Hasan as Imam Mustaqqar. In early Ismaili history, Hazrat Hasan is mentioned as Imam Mustaqqar when Ismailis were called SABI'A ( followers of seven)..

There is no need to go back to sources more than 1000 years back when we have a clear Farman of MSMS that Hazarat Hasan was NEVER Imam Mustaqqar. I will quote the Farman again. Get into your head once and for all.

"When Nabi Mohammed Mustafa departed from this world he appointed Pir Imam Hasan as his successor to carry on the work. Similarly, Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Husayn as the Imam after him." (Gujrati Farman book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.)

Imam Mustawda is NAIB to
Imam Mustaqqar. It is like president and vice president ( just for understanding ). This is the only exceptional case in Ismaili history. There is no other Imam Mustawda recorded in Ismaili history except Hazrat Hasan.
POSITION OF IMAM MUSTAWDA IS HIGHER THAN PIR IN ISMAILI TERMINOLOGY. Imam mustawda can carry work any where , in any part of the world, but pir's responsibilities fall in particular or special territories.
Like pir Sadruddin and other pirs after him were confined to jumpudwep by order of Imam and not for central Asia or middle east and beyond.

So explain, how Hazarat Hasan was different than other Pirs. What was so special about him that was different than other Pirs?

Our Present Imam is also the Pir and his responsiblity extends to all Jamats all over the world.

If you read the history of the Pirs, they travelled extensively and spread the Dawa. The history of the Pirs is given at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... abul+hasan

For example Pir Shams travelled extensively.

Pi'r Shamsuddi'n bin Pi'r Sala'huddi'n was born in Sabzwa'r in 639 A.H. during the Ima'mat of Ima'm Ala'uddi'n Mohammed. Like father like son: he too travelled with his father wherever he went. He was very fond of travelling. He travelled to Afghanistan, Arabia, Bangla Desh, Burma, China, Ceylon, Egypt, India, Iran, Iraq, Kashmir, Malaya, Tibet, Russia, Turkey and many other places. He went to hajj several times. He was popularly called as Haji Ba'ba'Qalander, Shams Iraqi, Shams Chot, Shams Darya, Shah Shams etc.

During the one hundred and eighteen years of his life Pi'r Shams converted over a half million disciples in many countries.107

I thought you are a kool person, thanks for your words," get into your head once and for all". I have not read the booklet "Kuchh na farmano" but I quote what you have taken from the Kuchh na Farmano," When Nabi Muhammad Mustafa departed from this world he appointed PIR IMAM HASAN as his successor to carry on the work". Please pay attention to wordings of Imam,
'PIR IMAM HASAN' with the word PIR MSMS has used the word IMAM next to word PIR. This shows the special status which I called IMAM MUSTAWDA. Other point is, MSMS never used the phrase PIR IMAM together for any other pir even pir Sadruddin in any farman as I know, if you know please quote.
My understanding about Pir Mustawda is that he is in charge of Da'wat all over the surface of earth and pir is entitled to a special territory for Da'wat.

[agakhani1]

The answers of your above two questions
1, Yes, if you are really an Ismaili then you should knows that! and why? You should knows that.
2, No, imamshahi HQ is in Pirana

One question:
Are you still not satisfied yet in your all no sense makings and weird questions? In those questions you have been tried to prove Ismaili pirs wrong! But look at you! You miserably failed in your that efforts to proven Ismailis pirs are wrong! yes they are true and they have dewine powers so it doesn't make any different whether it is a book or a lady.

[Admin]

Wazir Dr. Pir Muhammad Hoodbhoy (1905-1956), the then President of the Ismailia Association for Pakistan had made a humble submition to the Imam in his letter of October 8, 1954, asking the interpretation of green and red colours of the Ismaili flag. In reply, the Imam sent the following letter that:-

16TH OCTOBER, 1954

MY DEAR HOODBHOY,

IN REPLY TO YOUR LETTER OF 8TH OCTOBER, THE COLOURS OF OUR FAMILY ARE, AS YOU KNOW, RED AND GREEN, THE REASON BEING THAT WE REPRESENT BOTH THE (OFFICES OF) SHAH AND THE PEER.

THE SHAH WAS HUSSEIN, THE PEER WAS HASAN. HASAN HAD THE PEER'S COLOUR OF GREEN, BUT HUSSEIN'S MARTYRDOM WAS SO ENORMOUS IN EVENTS AND WAS SO OPPOSED TO EVEN THE SMALLEST LAWS OF WAR THAT THE COLOUR OF HIS HOLY BLOOD, NAMELY RED, WAS ACCEPTED WITH THE GREEN OF THE PROPHET'S FLAG AS A SOUVENIR AND REMEMBRANCE OF THAT TERRIBLE DAY.


http://www.ismaili.net/Source/myflag/11 ... cance.html

[Sorry for the Capital letters, the source has that in Capital letters]

[kmaherali]

Is book Pindiyaat e Jawan mardi creator of universe also?

Yes indeed, not just one Creator but can be multiple Creators. Those who obey it whole heartedly become elevated to Fanna fi Allah and hence acquire the properties of the Creator. There can be many not just one! So the book creates many Creators!

[kmaherali]

A senior missinary told me some time back that in 50's and 60's there was a debate, whether Prophet was first pir or Hazrat Hasan was first pir? Actually, he replied me when I asked him why MSMS not included names of pir in current Du'a. Can you elaborate further that ' his role as the Prophet of mankind was incidental'?

The debate is really unnecessary because MSMS indicated that the Prophet was the Pir and he appointed Hazarat Hasan as the Pir to continue his work.

Yes the Prophet was first of all the Pir. Piratan has always existed, so his essential office was being the Pir of Ismailis. Then of course he also assumed wider role of the Prophet of the Umma. When the Prophet died the Prophethood ended but Piratan continued...

For example if the present Imam became the Caliph of the Umma, then his role of the Caliph would be incidental to his role as the Imam of the Ismailis.

[kmaherali]

I thought you are a kool person, thanks for your words," get into your head once and for all". I have not read the booklet "Kuchh na farmano" but I quote what you have taken from the Kuchh na Farmano," When Nabi Muhammad Mustafa departed from this world he appointed PIR IMAM HASAN as his successor to carry on the work". Please pay attention to wordings of Imam,
'PIR IMAM HASAN' with the word PIR MSMS has used the word IMAM next to word PIR. This shows the special status which I called IMAM MUSTAWDA. Other point is, MSMS never used the phrase PIR IMAM together for any other pir even pir Sadruddin in any farman as I know, if you know please quote.
My understanding about Pir Mustawda is that he is in charge of Da'wat all over the surface of earth and pir is entitled to a special territory for Da'wat.

Yes the Imam said Imam Pir Hasan in deference or respect for the beliefs of sister Shias. Hazarat Hasan was also the Caliph of the Umma and he was considered as the Imam in this respect by the other Shias. Hence MSMS used the words Imam Pir. This does not mean that he was any different than other Pirs. In our Old Dua we recited:

Offer Prayers for all Pirs:
[10]1. First, the Holy Prophet Muhammad, the Chosen, the Messenger, May peace and the blessings of God be upon him .
[10]2. Pir Hazrat Hasan
[10]3. Pir Qasim Shah
[10]4. Pir Jaffer Shah

Hence all Pirs are equal.

[ismaili103]

Imam kissed the Holy Quran in public which some participants of this forum consider fake Quran. In other words Imam was endorsing jihaad by kissing Quran isn't it? By kissing Quran Imam sent a public message that not only he but his followers also respect and act according to Quran.

Jevo tamaro Imaan , Tevi hy Saheb ji ni Vacaha.

Mowla ki Leela , Mowla hy Janne

Wo aql e qul ha, meri kia oukaat usse samajhne ki.

[agakhani1]

So whatever cnclusion of this topic any individuals may takes but the bottom line is pirs and prophets have same equal status.
Prophet Mohd was first pir, pir Hasan was second and so on.. Current MHI is 50th pirs
Piratan and Imamat should be there all the times, this is a fundamental principal of Ismaili sect.