Authority & Nur (light), of Imam in Quran & Farmans

[swamidada786]

Please do not twist the statement. In Duaguzari the word shanti is used for world peace. Cruel authoritarian blood suckers do not sit in yoga!!

"My thoughts night and day are with you and though in this world, pain and sorrow can never end and everybody will have his own fair share of pain and sorrow, yet it is my prayer that you may have lesser weight and every happiness, due to Faith, Iman, and love of your Spiritual Father."
No. 139 (Precious Pearls, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah)

More discussion at: Pain, Suffering and Calamities viewtopic.php?t=1427

you may have lesser weight and every happiness, due to Faith, Iman, and love of your Spiritual Father." MSM

But this special prayer is only for spiritual children of spiritual father. Non Muslims, non Ismailis, atheists do not believe in Hazar Imam.

[kmaherali]

My point was that this man post big sermons adopted from Ismaili Gnosis and when asked questions or contradict him, he disappears.

I also sometimes wonder whether he reads or understands the content of what he posts!

You admited what I wrote in my post that Quran was revealed first and then controversies and conflicts started. Without annoying any individual or group, it is my sole opinion that if Quran had explicitly declared who will be the next incharge of religious and worldly affairs after Prophet then Muslaim Ummah should have been united.

If indeed there were such verses, I doubt that they would have been accepted in the compilation by Uthman!

You quoted a part of Ginan: Nabi Muhammad bhujo bhai TOU tamein paamo Imam. According to your translation "know Prophet Muhammad THEN you will attain Imam. It means first recognize The Prophet Then you will attain Imam means SIRAT goes through Prophet Muhammad to Imam, hence Prophet comes first and then Imam. In my opinion it is mention in 6th part of Dua after Surah Ikhlas, name of Prophet comes first and then name of Ali Murtaza. Allahuma bihaqqi Muhammadinil Mustafa wa Aliyinil Murtaza....

Your view assumes that Ismailism was started by Prophet Muhammad. However Ismailism has always been there even before Prophet Muhammad. There were Imams before Hazarat Ali. Also you have to keep in mind that the same Ginans states: Allah ehi Imam meaning Allah is Imam.

[kmaherali]

At present Imam and Pir are same, hence it is through Imam as intercessor we approach to Allah.

The Imams are also the Pirs but Pirs are not always the Imams. Sometimes the Imams perform both roles as at present but sometimes he may appoint Pirs from the Ahl al-Bayt as at the time of Pir Sadardin for example. Hence in the role of the Pir he is the intercessor but he also has the authority of the Imam as Allah.

[kmaherali]

But this special prayer is only for spiritual children of spiritual father. Non Muslims, non Ismailis, atheists do not believe in Hazar Imam.

The point is that one can be peaceful in the midst of external calamities whether he or she is an Ismaili or not. Ismailis of course attain that peace through the Imams blessings. Non-Ismailis can also attain peace through their own respective faiths and hence are able to overcome the trials and tribulations.

[swamidada786]

You wrote; "Your view assumes that Ismailism was started by Prophet Muhammad. However Ismailism has always been there even before Prophet Muhammad. There were Imams before Hazarat Ali. Also you have to keep in mind that the same Ginans states: Allah ehi Imam meaning Allah is Imam".

After printing, Mukhi Devraj destroyed the original copies of Ginans which he collected from various sources. Why he did so? If originals were available then it was easy to compare the original texts. In Ginans there have been changes made in time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah as well Shah Karim. Some Ginanic researchers and missionaries had reservation on the sentence Allah ehi Imam. They were of opinion something went wrong while compilation. They said sentence should be "WALLAH YEHI IMAM", pointing to Imam Islam Shah that by God he is real Imam.

[swamidada786]

At present Imam and Pir are same, hence it is through Imam as intercessor we approach to Allah.

The Imams are also the Pirs but Pirs are not always the Imams. Sometimes the Imams perform both roles as at present but sometimes he may appoint Pirs from the Ahl al-Bayt as at the time of Pir Sadardin for example. Hence in the role of the Pir he is the intercessor but he also has the authority of the Imam as Allah.

I wrote in my previous post; "The word Pir is not used in Dua then through whom we pray to Allah? Dua says," ALLAHUMA BIHAQQI MOWLANA ALI " and in last paragraph of 6th part we pray," WA BIHAQQI MOWLANA WA IMAMINAL HADHIRIL MOUJUD SHAH RAHIMIL HUSSAINI..." My assertion is at present Imam is Pir also therefore Pir Rahim Shah as intercessor will guide us to Allah.

[mahebubchatur]

A further session by IIS - ITREB Al Waez’s in Kenya recently
affirming the Divine manifestation of Allah’s will - blessing. Mercy guidance Farmans conveyed by Hazar Imam

viewtopic.php?p=74092#p74092

[mahebubchatur]

At present Imam and Pir are same, hence it is through Imam as intercessor we approach to Allah.

The Imams are also the Pirs but Pirs are not always the Imams. Sometimes the Imams perform both roles as at present but sometimes he may appoint Pirs from the Ahl al-Bayt as at the time of Pir Sadardin for example. Hence in the role of the Pir he is the intercessor but he also has the authority of the Imam as Allah.

I wrote in my previous post; "The word Pir is not used in Dua then through whom we pray to Allah? Dua says," ALLAHUMA BIHAQQI MOWLANA ALI " and in last paragraph of 6th part we pray," WA BIHAQQI MOWLANA WA IMAMINAL HADHIRIL MOUJUD SHAH RAHIMIL HUSSAINI..."
My assertion is at present Imam is Pir also therefore Pir Rahim Shah as intercessor will guide us to Allah.

⸻

Ya Ali Madad. Thank you for raising this important point.

Historically, within the Ismaili tradition, the title Pir was sometimes used to describe a spiritual guide or teacher. In earlier centuries, the Imam would appoint Pirs to serve the community and convey guidance. Imam himself has also been and today is called Pir in recognition of his divine role from Allah and Allah’s will

But there is a clear distinction:
• Imam is not an appointment by anyone; it is a divinely ordained position, continuing from before creation through the hereditary line from the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ by Allah’s will. This is not human choice — it is part of God’s perfection and the ongoing manifestation of creation.
• Pir is a word, a title, a description of spiritual function. It does not add to or reduce anything from the essence of the Nūr of Imamat.

In truth, both words — Pir and Imam — are simply different ways of naming what is in fact the same ever-present Light (Nūr): the eternal guidance of Allah in creation. The Imam is the bearer of that Light, described in our philosophy as the First Intellect, from which the Universal Soul emanates.

So whether one says Pir or Imam, the essence is not in the label but in the reality: the Imam is the manifestation of God’s will and authority in every age. And today, as always, the Imam is lovingly addressed by many names and attributes — Satgur Noor, Mawla, Mawla Bapa, Shah Pir (as in our prayers) — all pointing to and referring to the same eternal ever present Light.

[swamidada786]

The Imams are also the Pirs but Pirs are not always the Imams. Sometimes the Imams perform both roles as at present but sometimes he may appoint Pirs from the Ahl al-Bayt as at the time of Pir Sadardin for example. Hence in the role of the Pir he is the intercessor but he also has the authority of the Imam as Allah.

I wrote in my previous post; "The word Pir is not used in Dua then through whom we pray to Allah? Dua says," ALLAHUMA BIHAQQI MOWLANA ALI " and in last paragraph of 6th part we pray," WA BIHAQQI MOWLANA WA IMAMINAL HADHIRIL MOUJUD SHAH RAHIMIL HUSSAINI..."
My assertion is at present Imam is Pir also therefore Pir Rahim Shah as intercessor will guide us to Allah.

Ya Ali Madad. Thank you for raising this important point.

But there is a clear distinction:
• Imam is not an appointment by anyone; it is a divinely ordained position, continuing from before creation through the hereditary line from the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ by Allah’s will. This is not human choice — it is part of God’s perfection and the ongoing manifestation of creation.

Preamble says;
In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (s.a.s.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu’minin (a.s), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta’wil and Ta‘lim of Allah’s final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (a.s) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat (a.s).

[swamidada786]

The Imams are also the Pirs but Pirs are not always the Imams. Sometimes the Imams perform both roles as at present but sometimes he may appoint Pirs from the Ahl al-Bayt as at the time of Pir Sadardin for example. Hence in the role of the Pir he is the intercessor but he also has the authority of the Imam as Allah.

I wrote in my previous post; "The word Pir is not used in Dua then through whom we pray to Allah? Dua says," ALLAHUMA BIHAQQI MOWLANA ALI " and in last paragraph of 6th part we pray," WA BIHAQQI MOWLANA WA IMAMINAL HADHIRIL MOUJUD SHAH RAHIMIL HUSSAINI..."
My assertion is at present Imam is Pir also therefore Pir Rahim Shah as intercessor will guide us to Allah.

⸻
Ya Ali Madad. Thank you for raising this important point.

Historically, within the Ismaili tradition, the title Pir was sometimes used to describe a spiritual guide or teacher. In earlier centuries, the Imam would appoint Pirs to serve the community and convey guidance. Imam himself has also been and today is called Pir in recognition of his divine role from Allah and Allah’s will

When Imam is suffecient for guidance, why department of Piratan was established? In modern times we see Imam is Pir also, and the work of Imamat is going smoothly.

[swamidada786]

Chatur ji, you wrote," And today, as always, the Imam is lovingly addressed by many names and attributes — Satgur Noor, Mawla, Mawla Bapa, Shah Pir (as in our prayers) — all pointing to and referring to the same eternal ever present Light".
I wander, the phrase 'Shah Pir' is not used in Dua. If you meant regular dua guzari, the sentence usually is 'shah tou je huzur mein qabul kar....' and not shah pir tou je......!!

[kmaherali]

Preamble says;
In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (s.a.s.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu’minin (a.s), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta’wil and Ta‘lim of Allah’s final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (a.s) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat (a.s).

Preamble is meant for the public. However, for the Jamat, the following Farman is very clear regarding who the Imam is:

"....There is no one greater than MYSELF. If you think of God, then it is MYSELF. If you think of Pir, then too, it is ME. If you think about the Imam, then too, it is Me. There is no one except MySELF..."

Mowlana Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah, Vadi Jamatkhana, March 16th 1902

[kmaherali]

When Imam is suffecient for guidance, why department of Piratan was established? In modern times we see Imam is Pir also, and the work of Imamat is going smoothly.

The Imam is always a Pir as well. Hence he is called ShahPir or GurNar in our tradition. However he may appoint another person from the Ahl al-Bayt to perform the role of Piratan on his behalf. The Imam in our tradition is the object of devotion (God). The Pir is our guide or intercessor. The Imam can be the object of devotion and the intercessor at the same time.

[swamidada786]

Preamble says;
In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (s.a.s.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu’minin (a.s), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta’wil and Ta‘lim of Allah’s final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (a.s) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat (a.s).

Preamble is meant for the public. However, for the Jamat, the following Farman is very clear regarding who the Imam is:

"....There is no one greater than MYSELF. If you think of God, then it is MYSELF. If you think of Pir, then too, it is ME. If you think about the Imam, then too, it is Me. There is no one except MySELF..."

Mowlana Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah, Vadi Jamatkhana, March 16th 1902

The article B of Preamble is clear. Words speak for themselves. If the Preamble was meant for public then it should have been advertised in news papers and magazines, Why in 1986 it was explained to jamaits on order of Hazar Imam.

Farman changes according to changing times. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," My Farmans in years to come will be quite different from the present times. The whole world will change. Therefore you should obey the Farman of the Imam of the time. As the time changes so do the Farmans change". Also MSMS said," During my Imamat I changed the Farmans 70 times".

[swamidada786]

When Imam is suffecient for guidance, why department of Piratan was established? In modern times we see Imam is Pir also, and the work of Imamat is going smoothly.

The Imam is always a Pir as well. Hence he is called ShahPir or GurNar in our tradition. However he may appoint another person from the Ahl al-Bayt to perform the role of Piratan on his behalf. The Imam in our tradition is the object of devotion (God). The Pir is our guide or intercessor. The Imam can be the object of devotion and the intercessor at the same time.

You wrote; "The Pir is our guide or intercessor. The Imam can be the object of devotion and the intercessor at the same time".
I mentioned in my previous post that at present Imam is Pir also, therfore Shah Rahim as a Pir and intercessor will guide us to Allah.

[kmaherali]

The article B of Preamble is clear. Words speak for themselves. If the Preamble was meant for public then it should have been advertised in news papers and magazines, Why in 1986 it was explained to jamaits on order of Hazar Imam.

There are two aspects to Imamat: The first being the essential nature and qualities and the second being the expression and articulation. 

The essential aspect is always the same. It never changes. You cannot say that at one time the Imam is God and at another time he changes to a human being. The NOOR or the essence remains always the same.

However, how it is articulated and expressed can vary depending upon the context.  Imamat articulated in the constitution which is read by a wider audience, is different than Imamat articulated within the Jamat. The Jamat has a deeper understanding of the Imam as opposed to the wider public.

The constitution has aspects which go beyond our Jamat. Our institutions deal with outside agencies and hence it is read by a wider audience. It is not restricted to the Jamat. Farmans on the other hand, apply to the Jamat only.

Farman changes according to changing times. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," My Farmans in years to come will be quite different from the present times. The whole world will change. Therefore you should obey the Farman of the Imam of the time. As the time changes so do the Farmans change". Also MSMS said," During my Imamat I changed the Farmans 70 times".

In our Tariqah, there are aspects that change over time and there are aspects which remain the same. The essential practices and traditions do not change but worldly matters change. The changes in the Farmans relate to the changes in worldly circumstances, not to the essence of faith

In his Silver Jubilee Farman to Nairobi Jamat, Shah Karim stated:

I began My Farman by saying that in the past twenty-five years, much has changed, but much has remained the same. What has remained the same is our understanding of Islam. What has remained is the practice of our Tariqah, what has remained is abiding by our traditions and I want to underline the importance of this to you today on this occasion,

[kmaherali]

I mentioned in my previous post that at present Imam is Pir also, therfore Shah Rahim as a Pir and intercessor will guide us to Allah.

Yes except that he is also the Imam (Allah) in our tradition.

To give you an analogy, the Imam is the owner of the company but he can also be the manager. But sometimes he appoints someone else whom he trusts to be the manager. The Imam is the owner and the Pir is the manager.

[Admin]

The debate has been there since millenium. The Imam explains the concepts of our faith according to his audience. The general Farmans are basic but those in higher levels of initiations are very different. The level of understanding of each being different, the farmans are made accordingly. I suggest to read this article in order to understand the concept of Shah and Pir.

The narrative of the two Lights in the tradition of the Ginans, prayers and religious ceremonies of the Satpanth Nizari Ismailis as an attempt to define the concept of the Divine through the Noor of Shah and Pir.

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... Noor_of_Sh

[kmaherali]

The debate has been there since millenium. The Imam explains the concepts of our faith according to his audience. The general Farmans are basic but those in higher levels of initiations are very different. The level of understanding of each being different, the farmans are made accordingly.

I think it if for this reason that 2 roles of Imam and Pir are set out. For those who do not have the background or capacity to understand the Imam as God may still consider him and a Pir (the intercessor) and continue along the path until they have known him as God. For those who have already known him as God can consider him as both God and the intercessor.

[ashraf59]

Absolutely true! There was, there is, and there will be a difference between basic-knowledge persons and higher-level persons, and most of the time they compromise with others who have provided proof to them, but they will never accept it.

Back to the point: whether to consider the Imam as God, or just a holder of Allah’s Noor, or to accept him as a pir (intercessor) — I think this topic will never get resolved. I noticed that this thread started more than six and a half years ago, and still nobody has changed their beliefs.

In my opinion, we should follow the Farmans of MHI, whether as a pir, as Allah’s Noor holder, or as God.

In our old dua it is quoted as: “Ali Sahi Allah.”

[kmaherali]

In my opinion, we should follow the Farmans of MHI, whether as a pir, as Allah’s Noor holder, or as God.

Absolutely, Farmanbardari is the bottom line. Whatever inspires one to obey the Imam

[swamidada786]

I mentioned in my previous post that at present Imam is Pir also, therfore Shah Rahim as a Pir and intercessor will guide us to Allah.

Yes except that he is also the Imam (Allah) in our tradition.

To give you an analogy, the Imam is the owner of the company but he can also be the manager. But sometimes he appoints someone else whom he trusts to be the manager. The Imam is the owner and the Pir is the manager.

What can I say! In past 100 years owner has not find a suitable manager, therefore he is taking care of business himself, and he is taking care of business very well.

[swamidada786]

In my opinion, we should follow the Farmans of MHI, whether as a pir, as Allah’s Noor holder, or as God.

Absolutely, Farmanbardari is the bottom line. Whatever inspires one to obey the Imam

To understand modern day philisophy of Ismailism follow what Dua says and understand The Preamble. Both are given by Imam of the time, and this is Farmanbardari.

[swamidada786]

Absolutely true! There was, there is, and there will be a difference between basic-knowledge persons and higher-level persons, and most of the time they compromise with others who have provided proof to them, but they will never accept it.

Back to the point: whether to consider the Imam as God, or just a holder of Allah’s Noor, or to accept him as a pir (intercessor) — I think this topic will never get resolved. I noticed that this thread started more than six and a half years ago, and still nobody has changed their beliefs.

In my opinion, we should follow the Farmans of MHI, whether as a pir, as Allah’s Noor holder, or as God.

In our old dua it is quoted as: “Ali Sahi Allah.”

Ashraf ji, KALEY BHOJAN JAMIYA TENA AAJHEY SHA WAKHAN(N) RE
Fallow Hidayat of Hazar Imam.

"In 1964 during the visit of Imam in Pakistan, he summond a meeting of all presidents of Ismailia Associations.
In that meeting the president of Tanganika Association Rai Shamsuddin Tejpar asked Hazar Imam about ALI ALLAH AND ALIYULLA.
Hazar Imam said; Farman on that was very clear from my Grand Father. It was not Ali Allah but it was Aliyullah. which has different meaning, which means Ali is from Allah. Donn't confuse it, this means Spirit of Ali and the Noor of Ali is from Allah....
Also in 1950, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah himself changed the wordings in Dua from ALI ALLAH to ALIYULLAH, in old Dua.

[swamidada786]

Kmaheali wrote; "The constitution has aspects which go beyond our Jamat. Our institutions deal with outside agencies and hence it is read by a wider audience. It is not restricted to the Jamat. Farmans on the other hand, apply to the Jamat only".

I am writing about PREAMBLE and not constitution. You keep playing and twisting the statement. It is Preamble in which basic beliefs of Ismailism are mentioned. PREAMBLE IS A FARMAN.

[swamidada786]

Kmaherali wrote; There are two aspects to Imamat: The first being the essential nature and qualities and the second being the expression and articulation.

The essential aspect is always the same. It never changes. You cannot say that at one time the Imam is God and at another time he changes to a human being. The NOOR or the essence remains always the same.

Till today any missionary, or Ismaili intellectual, or IIS has clearly defined WHAT IS NOOR?
Imam is a human being having Noor of Allah. In his very first Farman in 1885 MSMH said," I am the Noor of both Hazrat Ali and Holy Prophet Muhammad...." But Noor is also in stone, water, mountain, vegetables, in each particle. It is the same essence which run through every particle of universe.

[kmaherali]

I am writing about PREAMBLE and not constitution. You keep playing and twisting the statement. It is Preamble in which basic beliefs of Ismailism are mentioned. PREAMBLE IS A FARMAN.

It is a preamble to the constitution! It the projection our community identity to others. When non-Ismailis want to know about Ismaili community and it's institutions, they refer to the constitution.

[kmaherali]

Till today any missionary, or Ismaili intellectual, or IIS has clearly defined WHAT IS NOOR?
Imam is a human being having Noor of Allah. In his very first Farman in 1885 MSMH said," I am the Noor of both Hazrat Ali and Holy Prophet Muhammad...." But Noor is also in stone, water, mountain, vegetables, in each particle. It is the same essence which run through every particle of universe.

The Preamble states: "The Imam's Ta'lim lights the murids' path to spiritual enlightenment and vision." The NOOR is what provides the LIGHT for the Ta'lim.

In his Memoirs, MSMS states: "I can only say to everyone who reads this book that it is my profound conviction that man must never ignore and leave untended and undeveloped that spark of the Divine which is in him." For ordinary humans the noor is only a spark which must be developed through Imams Ta'lim

[swamidada786]

I am writing about PREAMBLE and not constitution. You keep playing and twisting the statement. It is Preamble in which basic beliefs of Ismailism are mentioned. PREAMBLE IS A FARMAN.

It is a preamble to the constitution! It the projection our community identity to others. When non-Ismailis want to know about Ismaili community and it's institutions, they refer to the constitution.

Preamble to constitution is a basic document in which Imami Ismaili basic principles are defined by Hazar Imam. This document is essencial and important for Ismailis to understand their beliefs and explain same to non Ismailis. In constitution itself the formation of 0f institutions, its working, and by laws are defined, which are explained for smoothly running of institutions, but Preamble particularly is to understand basic articles of faith. Above all Preamble is Farman.

[swamidada786]

Till today any missionary, or Ismaili intellectual, or IIS has clearly defined WHAT IS NOOR?
Imam is a human being having Noor of Allah. In his very first Farman in 1885 MSMH said," I am the Noor of both Hazrat Ali and Holy Prophet Muhammad...." But Noor is also in stone, water, mountain, vegetables, in each particle. It is the same essence which run through every particle of universe.

The Preamble states: "The Imam's Ta'lim lights the murids' path to spiritual enlightenment and vision." The NOOR is what provides the LIGHT for the Ta'lim.

In his Memoirs, MSMS states: "I can only say to everyone who reads this book that it is my profound conviction that man must never ignore and leave untended and undeveloped that spark of the Divine which is in him." For ordinary humans the noor is only a spark which must be developed through Imams Ta'lim

My question is, what is the exact REAL defination of the NOOR? The God's divine particle is in every human being, and God has created means to ignite this spark. Imam's particular Ta'leem is only for his followers, what about the fate of other 8 billion souls? Is there any Noorani script attached to this spiritual Ta'leem?