Authority & Nur (light), of Imam in Quran & Farmans

[kmaherali]

In Gulabi Urdu, I use words 'ghumkao-ghumkao', in English bole tou summersaulting. You belong to old class, hence defending the 150 years old guidance, it is fine does not bother me. But I belong to class of Shah Karim Shah who made many changes. HUM HAIN NAI- ANDAZ KIYUN HO PURANA.
What about chapter 'The religion of my ancestors', was that for only Western kindergartens or as well Ismaili kindergartens!! This special booklet is still sold on Friday book stalls. In my opinion Preamble is continuation of 'The religion of my ancestors'.

The essence will never change, the manner in which it is expressed may change. The NOOR remains the same.True Ismailis are never kindergartens! They don't accept to consider the Imam as human and don't judge him according to human standards. Ismailis can also benefit from the chapter as long as they are aware that it is meant for a non-Ismaili audience. We can of course use the chapter and the preamble to articulate our faith to others.

[kmaherali]

In Sindhi translation objectionable portions were omitted.

If a Sindhi translation could be made available, I see no reason why an Urdu translation could not be available

[kmaherali]

So now you say,' Asli Dua is a Wonderful Tradition'. Apart from few seniors who remembers Asli Dua !!!

I never said Asal Dua is a wonderful tradition. It is not a Ginan!

[kmaherali]

But in Dua, there is no mention of Noor, Pir, Piratan, Sajdah to Imam and so on. It means according to you only Ginans are sufficient.
I do not know about JK which you attended. But the JK which I attended there was explanation of Preamble by a missionary. In our system, missionary is not authorized to deliver waiz on its own.

Ginans are sufficient in understanding our faith. I have never heard an explanation of the preamble in JK.

[swamidada786]

swamidada786 wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 10:00 pm
Swami: Mostly followers were unaware of basic Ismaili Tenets (and still they are today, because jamaits are not educated on this crucial subject by ITREB, even they disappear preamble). You admit it or not, but In 1986 Preamble was explained by missionaries on Hidayat of Imam of the time.

Kmaherali answered: Our basic tenets are contained in Dua and Ginans for the Jamat. In that respect the preamble was not necessary.

Swami: Please prove the basic Tenets of Ismailism in Dua as you claimed which are mentioned in Preamble.

The first article of Preamble says;
The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.

[swamidada786]

In Gulabi Urdu, I use words 'ghumkao-ghumkao', in English bole tou summersaulting. You belong to old class, hence defending the 150 years old guidance, it is fine does not bother me. But I belong to class of Shah Karim Shah who made many changes. HUM HAIN NAI- ANDAZ KIYUN HO PURANA.
What about chapter 'The religion of my ancestors', was that for only Western kindergartens or as well Ismaili kindergartens!! This special booklet is still sold on Friday book stalls. In my opinion Preamble is continuation of 'The religion of my ancestors'.

The essence will never change, the manner in which it is expressed may change. The NOOR remains the same.True Ismailis are never kindergartens! They don't accept to consider the Imam as human and don't judge him according to human standards. Ismailis can also benefit from the chapter as long as they are aware that it is meant for a non-Ismaili audience. We can of course use the chapter and the preamble to articulate our faith to others.

In one of my previous post, I admitted 'Imam is bearer of Noor of Allah', but as I have been insisting, Ismailis do not have proper, exact, real definition of Noor. Here and there for understnding we use different parables and worldly examples. Imam is in human form, he is not visible as a man surrounded by lights, or as a light man. If a person rejects Preamble how can he be in position to articulate and explain our faith to others!

[swamidada786]

In Sindhi translation objectionable portions were omitted.

If a Sindhi translation could be made available, I see no reason why an Urdu translation could not be available

ITREB can answer your querry. Some times they are in action without thinking about end results.

[swamidada786]

Swami: What about tradition ALI SAHI ALLAH TO ALIYULLAH ( Ali is from Allah). Asli Dua to Arabic Dua different from previous one. Mythological Ginans stopped from reciting in JK!!!

The change in Dua does not imply change in our tradition. Shah Karim called the Ginans "A wonderful tradition" to be kept for generations ahead!

Compare Asli Dua and Arabic Dua, you will find basic differences.

[swamidada786]

But in Dua, there is no mention of Noor, Pir, Piratan, Sajdah to Imam and so on. It means according to you only Ginans are sufficient.
I do not know about JK which you attended. But the JK which I attended there was explanation of Preamble by a missionary. In our system, missionary is not authorized to deliver waiz on its own.

Ginans are sufficient in understanding our faith. I have never heard an explanation of the preamble in JK.

If Ginans are sufficient in understanding our faith, then why Dua is arround? Just keep reciting Ginans.

When Preamble was introduced in 1986, you were in UK, I assumed as a student at IIS, may be you were busy some where hence unable to attenf JK and missed explanation. But the JK I attended, there was explanation of Preamble. The waiz was for an hour with a well known missionary.

[kmaherali]

Swami: Please prove the basic Tenets of Ismailism in Dua as you claimed which are mentioned in Preamble.

I said Dua and Ginans

The first article of Preamble says;
The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah.Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal.

Towards the end of 2nd part

The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.

Beginning of 2nd part, Beginning of 3rd part, beginning of 4th part

[kmaherali]

Imam is in human form, he is not visible as a man surrounded by lights, or as a light man.

This is the level of understanding of kindergartens!

If a person rejects Preamble how can he be in position to articulate and explain our faith to others!

I have never said we should reject the preamble, just that it is not necessary to understand our faith as Ismailis. However it is necessary for non-Ismailis to understand our faith

[kmaherali]

Compare Asli Dua and Arabic Dua, you will find basic differences.

Of course Dua will change according to the needs of time. It is only a prayer and the prayer can change.

[kmaherali]

If Ginans are sufficient in understanding our faith, then why Dua is arround? Just keep reciting Ginans.

Dua is a prayer, it is not a means of understanding our faith. Also a standardized prayer id required for all Ismailis.

When Preamble was introduced in 1986, you were in UK, I assumed as a student at IIS, may be you were busy some where hence unable to attenf JK and missed explanation. But the JK I attended, there was explanation of Preamble. The waiz was for an hour with a well known missionary.

Being an IIS student I would be among the first people to know about this hidayat. We were never told about it!

[swamidada786]

If Ginans are sufficient in understanding our faith, then why Dua is arround? Just keep reciting Ginans.

Dua is a prayer, it is not a means of understanding our faith. Also a standardized prayer id required for all Ismailis.

When Preamble was introduced in 1986, you were in UK, I assumed as a student at IIS, may be you were busy some where hence unable to attenf JK and missed explanation. But the JK I attended, there was explanation of Preamble. The waiz was for an hour with a well known missionary.

Being an IIS student I would be among the first people to know about this hidayat. We were never told about it!

I wander you wrote; "Dua is a prayer, it is not a means of under standing our faith".
Swami: Imam said, Dua is foundation of our Tariqa. One can understand philisophy of Ismailism through Dua.

Kmaherali: "We were never told about it".
Swami: Announcements are made in JKs. At that time smart phones were not arround so one should have text message to you.

[swamidada786]

Compare Asli Dua and Arabic Dua, you will find basic differences.

Of course Dua will change according to the needs of time. It is only a prayer and the prayer can change.

Bravo. You wrote," Dua will change according to the needs of time" So Dua changed, removing 'Ali Sahi Allah' to 'Aliyullah'. ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI.

[swamidada786]

Imam is in human form, he is not visible as a man surrounded by lights, or as a light man.

This is the level of understanding of kindergartens!

If a person rejects Preamble how can he be in position to articulate and explain our faith to others!

I have never said we should reject the preamble, just that it is not necessary to understand our faith as Ismailis. However it is necessary for non-Ismailis to understand our faith

All followers of Imam are kindergarteners infront him.

Atleast you accepted authority of Preamble. It is for Ismaili followers of Imam to understand and follow its Tenets, beside we should explain our Tenets to non Ismailis.

[swamidada786]

Swami: Please prove the basic Tenets of Ismailism in Dua as you claimed which are mentioned in Preamble.

I said Dua and Ginans

The first article of Preamble says;
The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah.Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal.

Towards the end of 2nd part

The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.

Beginning of 2nd part, Beginning of 3rd part, beginning of 4th part

Swami asked: Please prove the basic Tenets of Ismailism in Dua as you claimed which are mentioned in Preamble.
Kmaherali: I said Dua and Ginans.

Swami: But terminologies in Ginans are not mentioned in Dua. Dua is in Arabic.
--------
Swami mentioned the first article of Preamble.
The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah.Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal.

Kmaherali replied: Towards the end of 2nd part

Swami: At the end of 2nd part of Dua, 3 parts of Kalima are mentiond, but in Preamble 3rd part is missing.
-------
Kmaherali replied: ,"Regarding last sentence of article (A) of Preamble ie The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters".
Beginning of 2nd part, Beginning of 3rd part, beginning of 4th part

Swami: See, Dua mentions the concept of Imamah, though you called it merely a prayer.

[kmaherali]

Swami: Imam said, Dua is foundation of our Tariqa. One can understand philisophy of Ismailism through Dua.

Dasond is the foundation without which no understanding is possible.

Swami: Announcements are made in JKs. At that time smart phones were not arround so one should have text message to you.

I always attend JK regularly. I heard no such abnnouncements!

[kmaherali]

Bravo. You wrote," Dua will change according to the needs of time" So Dua changed, removing 'Ali Sahi Allah' to 'Aliyullah'. ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI.

Aliyullah can also mean Ali Sahi Allah! Hence nothing has changed essentially.

[kmaherali]

All followers of Imam are kindergarteners infront him.

There is a difference between Shariatis and Haqiqatis!

[kmaherali]

Swami: But terminologies in Ginans are not mentioned in Dua. Dua is in Arabic.

The Ginanic ideas are expressed in Arabic language!

but in Preamble 3rd part is missing.

Hence the Preamble does not convey all the principles of our faith!

Swami: See, Dua mentions the concept of Imamah, though you called it merely a prayer.

Dua is essentially a means of communication between a murid and the Imam. However it also serves as a constant reminder of our fundamental concepts and beliefs

[Admin]

You belong to old class, hence defending the 150 years old guidance, it is fine does not bother me. But I belong to class of Shah Karim Shah who made many changes.

My reply to those defending 1400 years old Farmans of bolto Quran or mungo Quran is that Mowlana Shah Karim himself told me personnaly that Farmans of past Imams are to be considered as his own Farmans. Of course unless he changes them. Making fun of "150 years old guidance" does not suit you.

Let me quote a recent Farman of Paris dated 13 July 2025:

"The values and principles of our Tariqah come from the Qur'an, from the teaching of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), and the Farmans of your Imams."

[swamidada786]

You belong to old class, hence defending the 150 years old guidance, it is fine does not bother me. But I belong to class of Shah Karim Shah who made many changes.

My reply to those defending 1400 years old Farmans of bolto Quran or mungo Quran is that Mowlana Shah Karim himself told me personnaly that Farmans of past Imams are to be considered as his own Farmans. Of course unless he changes them. Making fun of "150 years old guidance" does not suit you.

Let me quote a recent Farman of Paris dated 13 July 2025:

"The values and principles of our Tariqah come from the Qur'an, from the teaching of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), and the Farmans of your Imams."

I believe in Hazar Imam, as he made Framan, "The values and principles of our Tariqah come from the Qur'an, from the teaching of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), and the Farmans of your Imams." My passing remarks, but there is no mention of Ginan in this Farman. Since age 18, being a RC religion teacher I have insisted on teaching of Quran and Farmans. I even requested ITREB to start Quran classes in RC centers permanantly.

I did not make fun of 150 years of guidance. I wrote this on my experience. Let me give some examples of rites and ritual:
Till today in Africa, Canada, USA, Europe, and some other places Janaza Namaz is offered on Tariqa which was prescribed by MSMS with 7 Takbirs, where as Shah Karim in 1977 gave new Tariqa with 5 Takbirs which till today is not adopted in above mentioned countries. Though we beat the drums,"WE ARE ONE JAMAIT".

Till time of Shah Rahim the Eid Namaz was performed on old Tariqa given by MSMS in above mentiond countries. Recently it is changed and is performed in a unified manner in all jamaits, though this same (new) Eid Namaz was prescribed by Shah Karim in 1977 for all jamaits.

Same issue is with Ziarat, in above mentioned countries it is recited on old Tariqa, though change was made in 1977.
In subcontinent and Middle Eastern countries Ismaili women are not allowed to perform Janaza Namaz with men or go to grave yard. But in above mentioned countries women attend Janaza ceremonies. Just to remind when Mata Salamat attended janaza ceremonies in Aswan of MSMS, Shah Karim was not happy, (I DO NOT WANT TO GO INTO FURTHER DETAILS).

Dua is foundation of our Tariqa. In pakistan I have seen they pay attention to pronunciation and recitetion of Dua but in Western countrie they do not care, from child to youngman to senior all make scores of mistakes. Is this not the responsibility of ITREB to train and educate them. They try to speak correct English, French, Gujrati, Urdu but not Dua in Arabic.

Shah Karim reduced the number of Tasbih to 11 and said you will get same sawab but in western countries they still recite 33 times as prescribed by MSMS. Do we obey the Farman of Present Imam or not?

OBEY THE FARMAN OF THE IMAM OF PRESENT TIME.

[swamidada786]

All followers of Imam are kindergarteners infront him.

There is a difference between Shariatis and Haqiqatis!

Shariat is first step to achieve final goal.

PAHLI MANO SHARIAT, TARIQAT AUR HAQIQAT
MA'ARAFAT KO MON MEIN MAAR

[swamidada786]

Bravo. You wrote," Dua will change according to the needs of time" So Dua changed, removing 'Ali Sahi Allah' to 'Aliyullah'. ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI.

Aliyullah can also mean Ali Sahi Allah! Hence nothing has changed essentially.

"In 1964 during the visit of Imam in Pakistan, he summond a meeting of all presidents of Ismailia Associations.
In that meeting the president of Tanganika Association Rai Shamsuddin Tejpar asked Hazar Imam about ALI ALLAH AND ALIYULLA.
Hazar Imam said; Farman on that was very clear from my Grand Father. It was not Ali Allah but it was Aliyullah. which has different meaning, which means Ali is from Allah. Donn't confuse it, this means Spirit of Ali and the Noor of Ali is from Allah....
Also in 1950, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah himself changed the wordings in Dua from ALI ALLAH to ALIYULLAH.

[swamidada786]

Swami: Imam said, Dua is foundation of our Tariqa. One can understand philisophy of Ismailism through Dua.

Dasond is the foundation without which no understanding is possible.

Dasond is not mentioned in Dua, Why?
Hardly there is any Farman on Dasond by Shah Karim.
Recently I read an article by Mumtaz Tajdin on topic Dasond, title is 'Soon Dasond will be stopped'.

[swamidada786]

Swami: But terminologies in Ginans are not mentioned in Dua. Dua is in Arabic.

The Ginanic ideas are expressed in Arabic language!

but in Preamble 3rd part is missing.

Hence the Preamble does not convey all the principles of our faith!

Swami: See, Dua mentions the concept of Imamah, though you called it merely a prayer.

Dua is essentially a means of communication between a murid and the Imam. However it also serves as a constant reminder of our fundamental concepts and beliefs

Kmaherali: The Ginanic ideas are expressed in Arabic language!
Swami: Please name the books.
-------
Swami: but in Preamble 3rd part is missing.
Kmaherali: Hence the Preamble does not convey all the principles of our faith!

Swami: But still the frame work of Preamble was explained to jamaits by seasoned missionaries!!
--------
Swami: See, Dua mentions the concept of Imamah, though you called it merely a prayer.
Kmaherali: Dua is essentially a means of communication between a murid and the Imam. However it also serves as a constant reminder of our fundamental concepts and beliefs

Swami: Yes Dua is means of communication, but still some main fundamental terms are missing in Dua.

[kmaherali]

Shariat is first step to achieve final goal.

PAHLI MANO SHARIAT, TARIQAT AUR HAQIQAT
MA'ARAFAT KO MON MEIN MAAR

Becoming a murid, there is an underlying aspiration for Marifat stage. A murid does not remain at a Shariati level as you have implied by stating that they are kindergartens.

[kmaherali]

"In 1964 during the visit of Imam in Pakistan, he summond a meeting of all presidents of Ismailia Associations.
In that meeting the president of Tanganika Association Rai Shamsuddin Tejpar asked Hazar Imam about ALI ALLAH AND ALIYULLA.
Hazar Imam said; Farman on that was very clear from my Grand Father. It was not Ali Allah but it was Aliyullah. which has different meaning, which means Ali is from Allah. Donn't confuse it, this means Spirit of Ali and the Noor of Ali is from Allah....
Also in 1950, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah himself changed the wordings in Dua from ALI ALLAH to ALIYULLAH.

"And I wish it to be clear therefore that in Tariqah matters, I am aware and there will be no change in the essence of our faith. But there will be nonetheless a search to enable the Murids to come together in an ever wider Jamat practising their faith together even if they don't speak the same language. There will be an attempt to take account of the pressures of modern life. There will be an attempt to make sure that traditions are understood within the Jamat and outside and that they do not give offence." (Dar es Salaam, Oct 6th, 1988)

Stating explicitly that Ali is Allah can give offence to those outside who are trying to understand out faith. About 2 centuries ago our Jamat was not widely known. Today with the growth of our institutions, our Tariqah is widely known and hence concepts such as Ali is Allah can give offence to others. However, as the Imam has stated the essence will not change.

[kmaherali]

Dasond is not mentioned in Dua, Why?
Hardly there is any Farman on Dasond by Shah Karim.
Recently I read an article by Mumtaz Tajdin on topic Dasond, title is 'Soon Dasond will be stopped'.

Mowla said: "But there will be nonetheless a search to enable the Murids to come together in an ever wider Jamat practising their faith together even if they don't speak the same language. "

The notion of Dasond has not been part of the traditions of non-khoja Jamats, hence it can create issues within the Jamat if it is explicitly mentioned in Dua and Farmans. It was not mentioned in the Old Dua as well. However we mention it in our Tasbihs and of course Ginans are very clear about it.