Authority & Nur (light), of Imam in Quran & Farmans

[kmaherali]

In Gulabi Urdu, I use words 'ghumkao-ghumkao', in English bole tou summersaulting. You belong to old class, hence defending the 150 years old guidance, it is fine does not bother me. But I belong to class of Shah Karim Shah who made many changes. HUM HAIN NAI- ANDAZ KIYUN HO PURANA.
What about chapter 'The religion of my ancestors', was that for only Western kindergartens or as well Ismaili kindergartens!! This special booklet is still sold on Friday book stalls. In my opinion Preamble is continuation of 'The religion of my ancestors'.

The essence will never change, the manner in which it is expressed may change. The NOOR remains the same.True Ismailis are never kindergartens! They don't accept to consider the Imam as human and don't judge him according to human standards. Ismailis can also benefit from the chapter as long as they are aware that it is meant for a non-Ismaili audience. We can of course use the chapter and the preamble to articulate our faith to others.

[kmaherali]

In Sindhi translation objectionable portions were omitted.

If a Sindhi translation could be made available, I see no reason why an Urdu translation could not be available

[kmaherali]

So now you say,' Asli Dua is a Wonderful Tradition'. Apart from few seniors who remembers Asli Dua !!!

I never said Asal Dua is a wonderful tradition. It is not a Ginan!

[kmaherali]

But in Dua, there is no mention of Noor, Pir, Piratan, Sajdah to Imam and so on. It means according to you only Ginans are sufficient.
I do not know about JK which you attended. But the JK which I attended there was explanation of Preamble by a missionary. In our system, missionary is not authorized to deliver waiz on its own.

Ginans are sufficient in understanding our faith. I have never heard an explanation of the preamble in JK.

[swamidada786]

swamidada786 wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 10:00 pm
Swami: Mostly followers were unaware of basic Ismaili Tenets (and still they are today, because jamaits are not educated on this crucial subject by ITREB, even they disappear preamble). You admit it or not, but In 1986 Preamble was explained by missionaries on Hidayat of Imam of the time.

Kmaherali answered: Our basic tenets are contained in Dua and Ginans for the Jamat. In that respect the preamble was not necessary.

Swami: Please prove the basic Tenets of Ismailism in Dua as you claimed which are mentioned in Preamble.

The first article of Preamble says;
The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.

[swamidada786]

In Gulabi Urdu, I use words 'ghumkao-ghumkao', in English bole tou summersaulting. You belong to old class, hence defending the 150 years old guidance, it is fine does not bother me. But I belong to class of Shah Karim Shah who made many changes. HUM HAIN NAI- ANDAZ KIYUN HO PURANA.
What about chapter 'The religion of my ancestors', was that for only Western kindergartens or as well Ismaili kindergartens!! This special booklet is still sold on Friday book stalls. In my opinion Preamble is continuation of 'The religion of my ancestors'.

The essence will never change, the manner in which it is expressed may change. The NOOR remains the same.True Ismailis are never kindergartens! They don't accept to consider the Imam as human and don't judge him according to human standards. Ismailis can also benefit from the chapter as long as they are aware that it is meant for a non-Ismaili audience. We can of course use the chapter and the preamble to articulate our faith to others.

In one of my previous post, I admitted 'Imam is bearer of Noor of Allah', but as I have been insisting, Ismailis do not have proper, exact, real definition of Noor. Here and there for understnding we use different parables and worldly examples. Imam is in human form, he is not visible as a man surrounded by lights, or as a light man. If a person rejects Preamble how can he be in position to articulate and explain our faith to others!

[swamidada786]

In Sindhi translation objectionable portions were omitted.

If a Sindhi translation could be made available, I see no reason why an Urdu translation could not be available

ITREB can answer your querry. Some times they are in action without thinking about end results.

[swamidada786]

Swami: What about tradition ALI SAHI ALLAH TO ALIYULLAH ( Ali is from Allah). Asli Dua to Arabic Dua different from previous one. Mythological Ginans stopped from reciting in JK!!!

The change in Dua does not imply change in our tradition. Shah Karim called the Ginans "A wonderful tradition" to be kept for generations ahead!

Compare Asli Dua and Arabic Dua, you will find basic differences.

[swamidada786]

But in Dua, there is no mention of Noor, Pir, Piratan, Sajdah to Imam and so on. It means according to you only Ginans are sufficient.
I do not know about JK which you attended. But the JK which I attended there was explanation of Preamble by a missionary. In our system, missionary is not authorized to deliver waiz on its own.

Ginans are sufficient in understanding our faith. I have never heard an explanation of the preamble in JK.

If Ginans are sufficient in understanding our faith, then why Dua is arround? Just keep reciting Ginans.

When Preamble was introduced in 1986, you were in UK, I assumed as a student at IIS, may be you were busy some where hence unable to attenf JK and missed explanation. But the JK I attended, there was explanation of Preamble. The waiz was for an hour with a well known missionary.

[kmaherali]

Swami: Please prove the basic Tenets of Ismailism in Dua as you claimed which are mentioned in Preamble.

I said Dua and Ginans

The first article of Preamble says;
The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah.Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal.

Towards the end of 2nd part

The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.

Beginning of 2nd part, Beginning of 3rd part, beginning of 4th part

[kmaherali]

Imam is in human form, he is not visible as a man surrounded by lights, or as a light man.

This is the level of understanding of kindergartens!

If a person rejects Preamble how can he be in position to articulate and explain our faith to others!

I have never said we should reject the preamble, just that it is not necessary to understand our faith as Ismailis. However it is necessary for non-Ismailis to understand our faith

[kmaherali]

Compare Asli Dua and Arabic Dua, you will find basic differences.

Of course Dua will change according to the needs of time. It is only a prayer and the prayer can change.

[kmaherali]

If Ginans are sufficient in understanding our faith, then why Dua is arround? Just keep reciting Ginans.

Dua is a prayer, it is not a means of understanding our faith. Also a standardized prayer id required for all Ismailis.

When Preamble was introduced in 1986, you were in UK, I assumed as a student at IIS, may be you were busy some where hence unable to attenf JK and missed explanation. But the JK I attended, there was explanation of Preamble. The waiz was for an hour with a well known missionary.

Being an IIS student I would be among the first people to know about this hidayat. We were never told about it!